Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
Everyone is autistic about rule changes, builds and whatnot because they presumably are looking for fun combat. Or are all your previous posts in this thread about Larian barrelmancy a talking point about how the story will play out?
I have posts about barrelmancy? Or you mean this figuratively?
My point is you obviously care about combat design enough to repeatedly criticise the overuse of barrelmancy for example in previous games. So to then go ‘lol you looking for tactical combat in BG3’ as an argument for why you shouldn’t deal with restrictions such as subpar stat distributions or not being able to fully respec makes no sense, it’s within the same theme.
And even if it was balanced around full respec of companions, wouldn't that make it more challenging, not less? I don't understand your point.
Yes it would make it more challenging. I meant that if you can fully respec but as you previously said, that Larian hasn’t accounted for that in their balance, would make the game easier due to not being restricted in that sense.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
Too bad it wasn’t much use in DOS2 since the character system was the equivalent of having total freedom in a shallow puddle of rainwater
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
17,123
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Tangent here, but I don’t really understand that perspective. Great encounter design in Act 1 outside of a few barrelmancy meme fights was more or less the only reason I enjoyed DOS1
I've only played DOS1 up to the Cyseal area. I've often repeated that and I'm proud of it.

D:OS2 I gave up on after the fight on the boat, after you leave the Fort Joy island. Maybe just a little bit more into the second big map. The magic/physical shield moronity, the fact that combat classes were esentially magic casters with spells renamed to "abilities", the broken initiative just made me lose interest in the combat, and the story was delivered in an even more inane fashion than the combat.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
17,123
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Everyone is autistic about rule changes, builds and whatnot because they presumably are looking for fun combat. Or are all your previous posts in this thread about Larian barrelmancy a talking point about how the story will play out?
I have posts about barrelmancy? Or you mean this figuratively?
My point is you obviously care about combat design enough to repeatedly criticise the overuse of barrelmancy for example in previous games. So to then go ‘lol you looking for tactical combat in BG3’ as an argument for why you shouldn’t deal with restrictions such as subpar stat distributions or not being able to fully respec makes no sense, it’s within the same theme.
And even if it was balanced around full respec of companions, wouldn't that make it more challenging, not less? I don't understand your point.
Yes it would make it more challenging. I meant that if you can fully respec but as you previously said, that Larian hasn’t accounted for that in their balance, would make the game easier due to not being restricted in that sense.
Then the solution must be not to use the full respec in your game, and your difficulty won't suffer. Problem fixed, right?
 

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
Everyone is autistic about rule changes, builds and whatnot because they presumably are looking for fun combat. Or are all your previous posts in this thread about Larian barrelmancy a talking point about how the story will play out?
I have posts about barrelmancy? Or you mean this figuratively?
My point is you obviously care about combat design enough to repeatedly criticise the overuse of barrelmancy for example in previous games. So to then go ‘lol you looking for tactical combat in BG3’ as an argument for why you shouldn’t deal with restrictions such as subpar stat distributions or not being able to fully respec makes no sense, it’s within the same theme.
And even if it was balanced around full respec of companions, wouldn't that make it more challenging, not less? I don't understand your point.
Yes it would make it more challenging. I meant that if you can fully respec but as you previously said, that Larian hasn’t accounted for that in their balance, would make the game easier due to not being restricted in that sense.
Then the solution must be not to use the full respec in your game, and your difficulty won't suffer. Problem fixed, right?
Yes if that’s true.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
Tangent here, but I don’t really understand that perspective. Great encounter design in Act 1 outside of a few barrelmancy meme fights was more or less the only reason I enjoyed DOS1
I've only played DOS1 up to the Cyseal area. I've often repeated that and I'm proud of it.

D:OS2 I gave up on after the fight on the boat, after you leave the Fort Joy island. Maybe just a little bit more into the second big map. The magic/physical shield moronity, the fact that combat classes were esentially magic casters with spells renamed to "abilities", the broken initiative just made me lose interest in the combat, and the story was delivered in an even more inane fashion than the combat.

DOS2 was terrible, but DOS1 had a lot of memorable fights with excellent encounter design I thought. I always highlight the lighthouse fight when making that point since it’s such a random non-vital fight yet clearly had a lot of thought put into it.

Your other complaints are related to game systems which were always shit in DOS. Not encounter design. Looking at BG3’s EA, good encounter design is perhaps the thing I’m most hyped for in this game
 

Gradenmayer

Learned
Joined
Jul 21, 2019
Messages
612
Tangent here, but I don’t really understand that perspective. Great encounter design in Act 1 outside of a few barrelmancy meme fights was more or less the only reason I enjoyed DOS1
I've only played DOS1 up to the Cyseal area. I've often repeated that and I'm proud of it.

D:OS2 I gave up on after the fight on the boat, after you leave the Fort Joy island. Maybe just a little bit more into the second big map. The magic/physical shield moronity, the fact that combat classes were esentially magic casters with spells renamed to "abilities", the broken initiative just made me lose interest in the combat, and the story was delivered in an even more inane fashion than the combat.
Yeah, the retarded shields killed all fun mechanics from the first game.

Imagine creating such a complex and fun status effect system and then it just doesn’t work on anyone above 20% hp.
 

Swen

Scholar
Shitposter
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
2,234
Location
Belgium, Ghent
afbeelding.png
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
10,449
Location
Grand Chien
Grunker has already explained this but I'll have a go anyway. Why I want to be able to respec companions fully. A short explanation (yeah right).

Systems Mastery.
I enjoy taking the set of tools that is given to me by the developer and messing around with those toys to their fullest extent in order to learn how they work, and exploit that learning. When I'm restricted from using some of those toys, that restricts my ability to learn & exploit the system fully. It's like I'm only allowed to use 70% of what the developers put into the game. This is unsatisfactory to me. (I will address the obvious 'just use mercenaries' response later) I understand that some players view those restrictions as 'part of the sandbox' and get a lot of enjoyment from working within those restrictions - I don't. This is a spectrum - some players prefer to work within the restrictions, others prefer to use the whole sandbox. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice. Personally: I paid for the whole sandbox, I'm going to use the whole sandbox.

The Perfect Solution.
I enjoy taking my mastery of a system and using it to create a set of builds that form a perfect working team. It gives me a kick to create something that full of many moving parts to create a complex, many-faceted 'perfect solution' to the inherent puzzle proposed by a set of classes, races, feats, etc etc. When I'm restricted from creating that perfect solution because the characters I want to use can't be the classes I want, or already have imperfect feats chosen, or whatever it might be, that's unsatisfactory to me. Races are something that I choose to work within rather than change - I can rationalise Jubilost being a Sorcerer in my head, but not him being a Drow. This is a spectrum - some players prefer to work within all the restrictions, others prefer none, and others pick and choose within those they are happy to work with and those they want to replace. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice.

I Want The Whole Cake.

Many players will say 'just use mercenaries' as a response to requests to have complete control over companions. I reject this solution, because of a few reasons. Firstly, games are often developed with companions in mind. Kingmaker for example is designed from the ground up with companions in mind, both from a systems perspective (for example, companions are optimal for advisors and even the ability to use mercs for this was only patched in long after the game's release) and a story perspective (there is almost no reactivity or storytelling in many sections of the game if you don't bring companions). Not taking companions reduces the enjoyment of the game significantly. Secondly, I sometimes actually manage to find companions that I like in these games, and I want to bring them along and enjoy their company. I get that you might think I should choose one or the other and be happy. Fuck you, I paid for the whole cake, I'm eating the whole cake.

Mods Aren't The Best Solution.

Many players will say 'just use mods' as a response to requests to have complete control over companions. I reject this solution, because mods are often buggy and aren't supported by the developer. Using mods is fine 5-10 years after the game has been released and no more patches are coming out. Providing the modder is competent and hasn't made errors in his coding. And providing the respec mod plays well with other mods that you want to use. And providing that the game developer doesn't suddenly, out of the blue, release a random patch 10 years after the release date that breaks everything (thanks Warhorse). No, modding is not the best solution. It's a solution, sure. But it is much better if the developer builds this feature into the game. Modding is not an equivalent solution to having the feature built-in.

The Difficulty Argument Is Nonsensical.

Many players will say 'full respec ruins the difficulty of the game'. To say this is to fundamentally misunderstand how difficulty actually plays out in a game, and also makes certain erroneous assumptions about how competent game developers are at balancing things. Firstly, how difficult a game is, is affected by hundreds of different factors that all work together to create a pretty chaotic system. To say that full respec ruins the delicate balance of difficulty, is to assume that such a thing exists in the first place - it doesn't. Take Kingmaker for example: trained monkeys could balance this game better than Owlcat. The game is well known for having a horrendous inverted difficulty curve, and has many characters with retarded builds and others with pretty competent ones (some of them require a bit of thought to really figure out what the devs intended, but eventually you figure out that they are actually pretty competent). So no, full respec doesn't ruin the difficulty curve, because there is no fucking difficulty curve, there's a difficulty rollercoaster. Whatever you do, whether you stick with Owlcat's builds or make your own, the difficulty is going to be all over the place and you have to just roll with that. Secondly, I can make my own difficulty using the game's setting and balance things that way. For example, using respec'd companions might allow me to tackle a higher difficulty setting than I might otherwise have been able to. I could also use mods to fix mistakes in the game's difficulty, and to make it more difficult to suit my tastes, if the game's maximum difficulty is no longer sufficient. Ultimately, I am competent enough to create my own game experience using the game's settings, and using mods where those fall short. I'm doing it right now with Kingmaker, and having a more enjoyable experience than I ever did before.

The Story Is Usually Overrated, Anyway.
Many players will say 'full respec ruins the story'. Where to begin with this one. First of all, what does and doesn't ruin the story/narrative is subjective. Personally I don't think Jubilost being a Sorcerer ruins Kingmaker's story in any sense. I can completely understand why some players might feel differently, but I don't think it does. This is a spectrum - some players prefer a completely vanilla environment where everything the developers put in place, is intact - other players prefer to be able to alter certain things that they think will not impact much, if at all, on the story. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice. Secondly, let's be real here: some of these games have fucking trash writing. In many cases, there isn't much to fucking ruin. If I change Seelah from a ghetto paladin into a ghetto sorcerer, I don't think my enjoyment of her character is going to suffer much. If I put ketchup on the most expensive steak in the world, that's a pretty impactful decision which will ruin the flavour. If I put ketchup on a fucking hot dog, nothing gets ruined. It's a fucking hot dog. Forgive me if I don't much care for ruining some aspects of the narrative, when the narrative is pretty piss-poor to begin with. Of course, how much you appreciate a game's narrative is pretty subjective - one player's hot dog might be another's Montbéliarde steak. And that's fine too. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice.
 

Jermu

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,644
I don't mind companions full respec option when game allows hiring customizable companions so it don't really change balance that much
I'm probably just respeccing companions attributes + changing shadowheart domain but other than that keeping original classes

I also have a feeling combat balance is going to be a clusterfuck anyway some predictions I made for other bg thread:
no nerf for haste
extra attacks stack between multiclasses
spell progression stacks between multiclasses (not just slots)
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
Grunker has already explained this but I'll have a go anyway. Why I want to be able to respec companions fully. A short explanation (yeah right).

Systems Mastery.
I enjoy taking the set of tools that is given to me by the developer and messing around with those toys to their fullest extent in order to learn how they work, and exploit that learning. When I'm restricted from using some of those toys, that restricts my ability to learn & exploit the system fully. It's like I'm only allowed to use 70% of what the developers put into the game. This is unsatisfactory to me. (I will address the obvious 'just use mercenaries' response later) I understand that some players view those restrictions as 'part of the sandbox' and get a lot of enjoyment from working within those restrictions - I don't. This is a spectrum - some players prefer to work within the restrictions, others prefer to use the whole sandbox. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice. Personally: I paid for the whole sandbox, I'm going to use the whole sandbox.

The Perfect Solution.
I enjoy taking my mastery of a system and using it to create a set of builds that form a perfect working team. It gives me a kick to create something that full of many moving parts to create a complex, many-faceted 'perfect solution' to the inherent puzzle proposed by a set of classes, races, feats, etc etc. When I'm restricted from creating that perfect solution because the characters I want to use can't be the classes I want, or already have imperfect feats chosen, or whatever it might be, that's unsatisfactory to me. Races are something that I choose to work within rather than change - I can rationalise Jubilost being a Sorcerer in my head, but not him being a Drow. This is a spectrum - some players prefer to work within all the restrictions, others prefer none, and others pick and choose within those they are happy to work with and those they want to replace. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice.

I Want The Whole Cake.

Many players will say 'just use mercenaries' as a response to requests to have complete control over companions. I reject this solution, because of a few reasons. Firstly, games are often developed with companions in mind. Kingmaker for example is designed from the ground up with companions in mind, both from a systems perspective (for example, companions are optimal for advisors and even the ability to use mercs for this was only patched in long after the game's release) and a story perspective (there is almost no reactivity or storytelling in many sections of the game if you don't bring companions). Not taking companions reduces the enjoyment of the game significantly. Secondly, I sometimes actually manage to find companions that I like in these games, and I want to bring them along and enjoy their company. I get that you might think I should choose one or the other and be happy. Fuck you, I paid for the whole cake, I'm eating the whole cake.

Mods Aren't The Best Solution.

Many players will say 'just use mods' as a response to requests to have complete control over companions. I reject this solution, because mods are often buggy and aren't supported by the developer. Using mods is fine 5-10 years after the game has been released and no more patches are coming out. Providing the modder is competent and hasn't made errors in his coding. And providing the respec mod plays well with other mods that you want to use. And providing that the game developer doesn't suddenly, out of the blue, release a random patch 10 years after the release date that breaks everything (thanks Warhorse). No, modding is not the best solution. It's a solution, sure. But it is much better if the developer builds this feature into the game. Modding is not an equivalent solution to having the feature built-in.

The Difficulty Argument Is Nonsensical.

Many players will say 'full respec ruins the difficulty of the game'. To say this is to fundamentally misunderstand how difficulty actually plays out in a game, and also makes certain erroneous assumptions about how competent game developers are at balancing things. Firstly, how difficult a game is, is affected by hundreds of different factors that all work together to create a pretty chaotic system. To say that full respec ruins the delicate balance of difficulty, is to assume that such a thing exists in the first place - it doesn't. Take Kingmaker for example: trained monkeys could balance this game better than Owlcat. The game is well known for having a horrendous inverted difficulty curve, and has many characters with retarded builds and others with pretty competent ones (some of them require a bit of thought to really figure out what the devs intended, but eventually you figure out that they are actually pretty competent). So no, full respec doesn't ruin the difficulty curve, because there is no fucking difficulty curve, there's a difficulty rollercoaster. Whatever you do, whether you stick with Owlcat's builds or make your own, the difficulty is going to be all over the place and you have to just roll with that. Secondly, I can make my own difficulty using the game's setting and balance things that way. For example, using respec'd companions might allow me to tackle a higher difficulty setting than I might otherwise have been able to. I could also use mods to fix mistakes in the game's difficulty, and to make it more difficult to suit my tastes, if the game's maximum difficulty is no longer sufficient. Ultimately, I am competent enough to create my own game experience using the game's settings, and using mods where those fall short. I'm doing it right now with Kingmaker, and having a more enjoyable experience than I ever did before.

The Story Is Usually Overrated, Anyway.
Many players will say 'full respec ruins the story'. Where to begin with this one. First of all, what does and doesn't ruin the story/narrative is subjective. Personally I don't think Jubilost being a Sorcerer ruins Kingmaker's story in any sense. I can completely understand why some players might feel differently, but I don't think it does. This is a spectrum - some players prefer a completely vanilla environment where everything the developers put in place, is intact - other players prefer to be able to alter certain things that they think will not impact much, if at all, on the story. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice. Secondly, let's be real here: some of these games have fucking trash writing. In many cases, there isn't much to fucking ruin. If I change Seelah from a ghetto paladin into a ghetto sorcerer, I don't think my enjoyment of her character is going to suffer much. If I put ketchup on the most expensive steak in the world, that's a pretty impactful decision which will ruin the flavour. If I put ketchup on a fucking hot dog, nothing gets ruined. It's a fucking hot dog. Forgive me if I don't much care for ruining some aspects of the narrative, when the narrative is pretty piss-poor to begin with. Of course, how much you appreciate a game's narrative is pretty subjective - one player's hot dog might be another's Montbéliarde steak. And that's fine too. Neither approach is better or worse: it's a matter of choice.

I mean you could have just said “character customization fun 4 characters 4 times fun” but ok
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
17,656
Strap Yourselves In
listened with half an ear while browsing the net. is there a better summary? i don't wanna play RTWP so playing the games myself is out of the question.
You need NONE of this to play BG3. It's set 100 years later. The most you need to know is that Bhaal realized he was going to die, had a bunch of kids to ressurect himself and that Jaheira and Minsc aided one of them (two really).

5E later says that this last Bhaalspawn died and Bhaal got resurrected as a demigod, but that's not in any game. And frankly, even the previous is just Forgotten Realms lore, apart from the bit about Jaheria and Minsc.

You shouldn't watch this spoiler shit. This is reddit brainrot that ruins the first two games for you. You should play the games and enjoy them because you're never going to find others like them again. You can set the automatic pause settings so that it's more similar to turn-based combat if real-time bothers you.

This is like watching a summary of the original Star Wars trilogy to prepare you to watch the new Disney films. Awful. This wolf guy needs a swift kick in the balls for this.
 
Last edited:

Rhobar121

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
1,280
listened with half an ear while browsing the net. is there a better summary? i don't wanna play RTWP so playing the games myself is out of the question.
You need NONE of this to play BG3. It's set 100 years later. The most you need to know is that Bhaal realized he was going to die, had a bunch of kids to ressurect himself and that Jaheira and Minsc aided one of them (two really).

5E later says that this last Bhaalspawn died and Bhaal got resurrected as a demigod, but that's not in any game. And frankly, even the previous is just Forgotten Realms lore, apart from the bit about Jaheria and Minsc.

You shouldn't watch this spoiler shit. This is reddit brainrot that ruins the first two games for you. You should play the games and enjoy them because you're never going to find others like them again. You can set the automatic pause settings so that it's more similar to turn-based combat if real-time bothers you.

This is like watching a summary of the original Star Wars trilogy to prepare you to watch the new Disney films. Awful. This wolf guy needs a swift kick in the balls for this.
Trying to make a turn-based game out of a game that isn't meant to be turn-based ends up being a tiresome chore.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
17,656
Strap Yourselves In
Trying to make a turn-based game out of a game that isn't meant to be turn-based ends up being a tiresome chore.
Nah. I always have autopause after allied spell cast on. Otherwise you just waste valuable time queuing up the next spell. Same with pause on seeing the enemy.

You can bring the game a little closer to turn-based without sacrificing anything. It's only if you turn all the options on the it becomes a little tiresome, but maybe someone who really hates real-time would like it, idk.

I don't get the "I'm not playing real-time" thing though. Lots of classic CRPGs were real-time. Do you have some sort of disability that prevents you from hitting the space key?

How can you tell the people who hate turn-based in BG3 to get over it, when you can't get over real-time in BG1&2?
 

whydoibother

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
17,486
Location
bulgaristan
Codex Year of the Donut
listened with half an ear while browsing the net. is there a better summary?
The militant branch of the space orcs caliphate wage jihad on the tentacle face hivemind. Your first companion is such a space orc, the guys who kidnapped you are part of the tentacle face hivemind. They reproduce by laying eggs in other people's brains. You are pregnant, and want to abort it.
The cleric, rogue and wizard you recruit are generic fantasy stuff.
The barbarian you recruit is a thiefling. Hellish creatures can be demons and devils, and they are at war, and that war has produced refugees from a certain city. That's why there's so many thieflings going to Baldur's Gate, you will see a bunch.
You recruit a warlock, he also fought in that war it seems. A warlock is a wizard who gains his power by signing a contract with a devil or other outworldly creature. He has to do a task for them, and in reward he is given power. The trope is that this contract is bad and the signee regrets it.
An origin you can't recruit, but can play as, is the "Dark Urge". This is probably a bhaalspawn of sorts, a child of Bhaal. Bhaal was the god of murder, who split himself into a bunch of newborns to avoid destruction. His cultists were supposed to sacrifice these babies to resurrect him, but their cult got busted up and Bhaal had to talk to them in their dreams, to get them to all kill each other, so that when they die he can be reborn. That's the plot of Baldur's Gate 1.
At the time of this game, this should've already happened, but given what we know of the Dark Urge character, maybe they rectonned it?
 

whydoibother

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
17,486
Location
bulgaristan
Codex Year of the Donut
You need NONE of this to play BG3.
Who needs context or history or reasons for doing shit or really anything :bioware:
To be fair, if you have basic understanding of Forgotten Realms and D&D, the relevant parts of Baldur's Gate 1/2/Throne can be explained in literally 5 minutes. Despite the length of these games, not much really happens, in volume.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom