Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Ontopoly]

larian likes to ignore dragon commander too.

That's a shame, because I loved Dragon Commander.

The obvious conclusion is that larian has abandoned you and the logical course of action is to shill for Solasta instead.

 

[Harthwain]

He just likes Larian cuz he is a mage hater. Every Larian fanboy is a mage hater/pseudo balancefag which complains a lot about 3E arcane casters but ignore CoDzillas.

Contrary to what you are saying casters were much more interesting to play in Divinity: Original Sin series, because they offered elemental interactivity.

 

[Ontopoly]

He just likes Larian cuz he is a mage hater. Every Larian fanboy is a mage hater/pseudo balancefag which complains a lot about 3E arcane casters but ignore CoDzillas.

Contrary to what you are saying casters were much more interesting to play in Divinity: Original Sin series, because they offered elemental interactivity.

But that would mean you would have to deal with larian gimmicks for an entire 30 hour game and that just doesn't sound too appealing. I'd rather go all physical if I had to ever play that game again. Although I obviously would never

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Honestly when it comes to DOS 1 and 2 Larian's shitty itemization annoyed me WAY more than their "gimmicks".

 

[Cryomancer]

The itemization of DOS1/2 remembered me of Diablo 3. A lot of "stat stickie" to make your char fell less like a char and more like a soulless clone of everyone else.

Contrary to what you are saying casters were much more interesting to play in Divinity: Original Sin series, because they offered elemental interactivity.

And all spells are trash. There are no spell where I look and see "OMG, that is so cool", all seems very lackluster. On Pathfinder Kingmaker, I getBoneshaker on 3rd level(prepared)/4th level(spontaneous) and then, after each level, I get more and more cool unique spells. Till wail of the banshee on end game. On DOS2, you on the starting area get ALL lackluster spells and then, the unique change is the numbers which become bigger. Knights of the Chalice 2, a game made by a single guy, has over 700 spells and I just can't decide between being a Green Wizard, White Wizard or Dark Wizard. Pierre even homebrewed some amazing spells. Example :

Greater Disintegrate (Alteration. Medium Range. Creatures struck by this green ray are immediately turned to ashes. The spell requires a successful ranged touch attack. Subjects who are successful on a Fortitude saving throw instead take 8d8 points of damage plus one point for every caster level.)

Summon Stone Golem (Conjuration. With this spell, you summon a Stone Golem (CR 11) to help in combat. Duration 7 rounds, or until dismissed. Space 2x2 squares. For every caster level beyond 13, the summoned creature will gain one additional Hit Die. Gold cost 300, XP cost 50.)
https://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Wizard.htm

In therms of envorimental interactivity, Solasta is the best tactical RPG and DmMM the best action.

The obvious conclusion is that larian has abandoned you and the logical course of action is to shill for Solasta instead.

Which would be a incline. Solasta is the best low level D&D game.

 

[Sharpedge]

Considering how unbalanced Larian games are, trying to argue that people who like their games hate casters seems to be a bit of a major stretch.

 

[Harthwain]

And all spells are trash. There are no spell where I look and see "OMG, that is so cool", all seems very lackluster.

Divinity: Original Sin was largely mediocre, but you're missing the point - despite spells being "trash", as you put it, they offered more to the players than any other class. So trying to peddle the idea that Larian hates casters, when casters were already the biggest part of the appeal is just bullshit.

 

[Bara]

Thac0 I stand by my statement that Beyond Divinity has some of the best musuc of the series.

Hidden Masters is a great track


In Exile also

 

[Anonona]

On Pathfinder Kingmaker, I getBoneshaker on 3rd level(prepared)/4th level(spontaneous) and then, after each level I get more and more cool unique spells. Till wail of the banshee on end game

I don't find those example to be neither interesting nor impressive, specially its integration in PF:KM. Don't get me wrong, it is useful and powerful, but is just damage, nothing more. And Wail of the Banshee is powerful, yeah, but is little more than an insta kill spell. Even the most basic bitch JRPGs have spells like those. The Black Mage in FF has Death for insta-kill and all of the elemental nukes for damage.

Greater Disintegrate (Alteration. Medium Range. Creatures struck by this green ray are immediately turned to ashes. The spell requires a successful ranged touch attack. Subjects who are successful on a Fortitude saving throw instead take 8d8 points of damage plus one point for every caster level.)

Summon Stone Golem (Conjuration. With this spell, you summon a Stone Golem (CR 11) to help in combat. Duration 7 rounds, or until dismissed. Space 2x2 squares. For every caster level beyond 13, the summoned creature will gain one additional Hit Die. Gold cost 300, XP cost 50.)

Again, Great Desintegrate is more of the same, kill or damage. And Summon Stone Golem is not so different as the summon incarnate of D:OS2, while you can infuse the incarnate to change its abilities, spells and elemental resistances, giving it more tactical value and more involved gameplay.

I'm not saying necessarily that D:OS 1 and 2 have better magic system that those games, but those examples are in my opinion simply quite boring. Just "AWESOME BUTTON!!" tier spells (with the exception of Summon Stone Golem). Don't get me wrong, they are great, but they aren't really anything special. Even JRPGs have spells that are similar in function as those. I find quite a lot more interesting spells that have powerful synergies between them or that have strange but useful effects. A simple teleportation spells to me brings so many more fun possibilities than just Boneshaker. The whole Polymorph spell trees in D:OS 2 is very interesting and compliments almost any build because of how good and unique they are. Even something as simple as creating a cloud of smoke has so many more interesting interactions; block line of sight to avoid being shot, blessing it for healing, cursing it for damaging, electrocuting it, using the spell Pressure Spike to condense it and deal damage or put out fires, and more. And that is only one single element of the game.

Hell, using Solasta as an example. Fly, light and spells like those are to me much more exciting and fun because of how many tactical value they have and how much they dramatically affects gameplay. I love powerful kill spell, but I wouldn't use those to determine the quality of a magic system.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Elemental interactivity is not a gimmick. It should be a core feature of all RPGs released after 2010, along with terrain destruction. You know what was the most awesome spell I've even seen in an RPG? For sure it wasn't some "big damage number" nerdshit. It was a spell that changes a direction of the wind and allows you to use hot-air balloon in Ultima IV (or was it V?).

 

[The_Mask]

Divinity: Original Sin was largely mediocre

I tend to disagree. It was a pretty interesting title for its time. The only thing I disliked were the immune to everything enemies at one point.

 

[Cryomancer]

The Black Mage in FF has Death for insta-kill and all of the elemental nukes for damage.

Yep. FF1 black mage started with a small fire and gradually evolved his magic till he could have a lot of really strong spells; that is great progression.

And Summon Stone Golem is not so different as the summon incarnate of D:OS2

Yes. It is. I mean, on KoTC2 your as a 1st tier caster can only cast basic spells and only after reaching higher levels, can summon stronger creatures. On DOS2, you stay with the incarnate the entire game. Ideally, golems would be like NWN1 : HotU where you need to CRAFT a golem, gathering all types of stuff and crafting it. Ideally, creating a golem should be a process, not just a spell. But a very large creature can work as a shield, as a offensive tool, as a "battlefield" controlling tool, blocking a pathway and so on.

Different summons has completely different proprieties, a small elemental can't serve as a shield, but a large summon can serve as a "stone wall" at the same time. You can for example, conjurate a incendiary cloud and trap a enemy inside it while a large fire elemental blocks his exit on kotc2.

A simple teleportation spells to me brings so many more fun possibilities than just Boneshaker.

I din't said that bonseshaker is a spell which opens 1000s possibilities, just a cool offensive spell which you can on low level. You can use dimensional door but it is a 4th tier spell. And guess what, there are spells which offers iteractivity on kingmaker, for example, you can use animate dead to raise skeletons and then, cloudkill to damage enemy con while your undeads are immune. Or create a deathzone with persistent spells and when the enemy is leaving, use tsunami to send then back to the "death zone".

And WoTR made necromancy even better. For example, playing as a lich mythic path, all of logistic of the crusades become different. Having a deadly battle which kills most of your army can mean spending a lot of time and resources re making the army, as a non lich. As a lich, means that you got a lot of free unities.

There was points, where I had like 2k skeletons on one of my legions chapter 3.

Pick the greater disintegrate on KoTC2. It kills or deals a lot of damage but

• Costs the loot on the enemy, since it disintegrate his gear too.
• Requires a ranged touch attack, meaning that a enemy with mirror image can have great chances of avoiding the beam
• Has low chance of working on high hp/high fortitude enemies, where the OHK effect is more desirable.
• Requires a 9th spell slot or 8th spell slot if you are a green mage.
• There are enemies capable of reflecting beam attacks
• If the enemy makes the same, the damage is just 8d8 + CL.
• There are enemies immune to being disintegrated. You can't disintegrate a ghost for example.

So, is not a "win awesome button", is a great power, with great risks, costs and limitations that you will only obtain on end game.

It should be a core feature of all RPGs released after 2010,

In the case of BG3, fells like a gimmicky. In the case of Solasta, not.

Same on KoTC2. You can use gust of wind to send enemies into a "death wall"

 

[Pink Eye]

In Chalice. You can cast web to disable enemy units. Then later burning hands to catch them all on fire. The game has so many spell interactions. Like using burning hands to get rid of grease, for example.

 

[Larianshill]

Did someone say burning surfaces?

 

[Ontopoly]

The coolest spell is stinking cloud.

 

[Anonona]

Yep. FF1 black mage started with a small fire and gradually evolved his magic till he could have a lot of really strong spells; that is great progression.

I don't even mean FF1 only. All FF have them. Even XIII, as trash as it was, probably had the strongest version of Death spell that actually worked on the final boss.

Yes. It is.

Ok, it "literally" isn't the same thing, just very similar in function (summon a creature to help you fight). It still doesn't mean that their summoning spells are inheretly superior or more interesting than summon D:OS 2's, as the incarnate changes with level and can be modified to your needs, as well as use spells on them like overcharge them to make them very powerfull for a few turn and then die among others. Hell, just with the elemental infusion you can play with its inmunities and recreate the undead and deathzone trick, by creating surfaces or clouds that hurt the enemy but heals the incarnate.

I din't said that bonseshaker is a spell which opens 1000s possibilities, just a cool offensive spell which you can on low level. You can use dimensional door but it is a 4th tier spell. And guess what, there are spells which offers iteractivity on kingmaker, for example, you can use animate dead to raise skeletons and then, cloudkill to damage enemy con while your undeads are immune. Or create a deathzone with persistent spells and when the enemy is leaving, use tsunami to send then back to the "death zone".

You used it as proof of a good magic system. And I pointed out how poor of an example it was, and rightfully so. Now those other examples, those are pretty good. Things like those or how you can cast Stinking Cloud and then buff your characters with Delay Poison to become inmune to their effects, or even how certain other classes can even interact with those spells like using Bullrush to push enemies inside Pits. Those are the kind of things that actually makes a magic system more interesting. That is also why I have to disagree vehemently when you say people that like D:OS 1 and 2 hate magic. Quite the opposite, the amount of combos and interactions of magic on those games makes them very fun to play as mages.

Pick the greater disintegrate on KoTC2. It kills or deals a lot of damage but

• Costs the loot on the enemy, since it disintegrate his gear too.
• Requires a ranged touch attack, meaning that a minor mirror image can make extremely unlikely to get hit
• Has low chance of working on high hp/high fortitude enemies, where the OHK effect is more desirable.
• Requires a 9th spell slot or 8th spell slot if you are a green mage.
• There are enemies capable of reflecting beam attacks
• If the enemy makes the same, the damage is just 8d8 + CL.
• There are enemies immune to being disintegrated. You can't disintegrate a ghost for example.

So, is not a "win awesome button", is a great power, with great risks, costs and limitations that you will only obtain on end game.

With the exception of disintegrating enemy loot (which is pretty neat), a lot of those aren't related on how the spell itself functions or are unique to this spell in particular. Great spell, but again, nothing that really unique or amazing.

In the case of BG3, fells like a gimmicky. In the case of Solasta, not.

You keep repeating this but you haven't say how it is so. Why is gimmicky on BG3, but not Solasta?

In Chalice. You can cast web to disable enemy units. Then later burning hands to catch them all on fire. The game has so many spell interactions. Like using burning hands to get rid of grease, for example.

That sounds really neat.

 

[Pink Eye]

It *is* neat. If you're in a big fight, and your backline is being targeted by the enemy. You can summon rocks to block vision. Therefore forcing enemies to either waste a turn dispelling the rocks. Or to funnel themselves through your little choke point. Of course that might make it easy for the enemy AI to hurl a nasty fireball at your little choke point. Knights of the Chalice 2 is pretty great. Martial characters also have lots of abilities they can dish out as well. Grappling an enemy. Sliding an enemy into a bottomless pit. Bull rushing them, and so on. What's great about Chalice, is that the enemy AI also makes full use of these abilities. For example, consider this, in any other game; a couple of fighters won't be such an issue. But in Knights of the Chalice, they can be a force to be reckoned with. As the enemy AI will rush your backline. Grapple your spellcasters. Trip them in order proc attacks of opportunities. And so on. Very dynamic the combat can be.

 

[Desiderius]

Boneshatter has some interesting features - indefinite scaling, unusual save/damage type, no touch required - but it is a strange choice to illustrate the almost infinite variety in the PF spellbook.

Both D:OS’s feature a great early spell/ability selection that inexplicably peters out before the game is even half over leaving only the increasingly tedious item chase as an avenue to generate novel play patterns.

 

[jackofshadows]

In Chalice. You can cast web to disable enemy units. Then later burning hands to catch them all on fire. The game has so many spell interactions. Like using burning hands to get rid of grease, for example.

In D:OS games, you can set on fire anything at any given time frame at desirable extent if you're feel determined.

Jokes aside, I'm with Victor here actually. All these elemental shenanigans are neat only when they strictly situational but not when they're the essense of caster's power. When I have a proper caster in party I want him to sow death and destruction around instead of summoning electrified wind or some shit not to mention gay-ass tricks like teleport someone into lava or whatever.

 

[underground nymph]

Pierre even homebrewed some amazing spells. Example : Greater Disintegrate

Who could have guessed!

 

[Pink Eye]

The man loves his disintegrate spell :D

 

[Desiderius]

In Chalice. You can cast web to disable enemy units. Then later burning hands to catch them all on fire. The game has so many spell interactions. Like using burning hands to get rid of grease, for example.

In D:OS games, you can set on fire anything at any given time frame at desirable extent if you're feel determined.

Jokes aside, I'm with Victor here actually. All these elemental shenanigans are neat only when they strictly situational but not when they're the essense of caster's power. When I have a proper caster in party I want him to sow death and destruction around instead of summoning electrified wind or some shit not to mention gay-ass tricks like teleport someone into lava or whatever.

Teleportation is by far the most powerful - and in some cases necessary - ability in D:OS II.

 

[Desiderius]

People talk about barrelmancy or whatever but it’s really a game of strategic teleportation, both offensive and defensive.

 

[Delterius]

instead of summoning electrified wind or some shit not to mention gay-ass tricks like teleport someone into lava or whatever.

so no level 9 spells then

 

[Cryomancer]

That sounds really neat.

And it is. KoTC is amazing. The AI of enemies is a masterpiece. For example, I was facing some undeads about lv 8. Used fire wall and tried to lure then to the fire wall. What they did? They pushed my cleric to my own firewall, knocked her down and pinned her down on the spell which I casted.

Compare this to NWN1 artificial """"intelligence"""" where undead clerics cast heal on themselves(and spoiler : they damage themselves)

Boneshatter has some interesting features - indefinite scaling, unusual save/damage type, no touch required - but it is a strange choice to illustrate the almost infinite variety in the PF spellbook.

Also, is a spell which I don't use often on WoTR. I mean, considering that most Kingmaker enemies has poor saves, a spell which targets fortitude is amazing. On Wrath, most enemies has high FORT.

Who could have guessed!

The power of reducing enemies into dust. That is so cool. IMO Martial classes should have the ability to decapitate enemies too, that would make then more interesting.