Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[The_Mask]

In the original BGs it felt that you are making your own decisions

Yeah. It *felt* like it. But it wasn't. BG I and II are a lot of smoke and mirrors. Take your nostalgia glasses off, and you'll see it.

Also... about the day/night cycles: they matter in the sense that there are some vendors out during the day, some others during the night. Other than that, it's just the random encounters with Bodhi's vampires that really make night time a factor.

The BG games are fun. And a big name. But they are neither the masterpieces nostalgia goggles make them out to be. (and, potentially for any haters, they're neither complete shit; because it takes some skill to maneuver the smoke and mirrors)

 

[Desiderius]

Have the companions found a reliable laxative yet?

 

[Cryomancer]

Also... about the day/night cycles: they matter in the sense that there are some vendors out during the day, some others during the night. Other than that, it's just the random encounters with Bodhi's vampires that really make night time a factor.

Also impact some side quests; Mainly in ch2. But I agree that D/N cycle could have better implemented into the game. One mod for BG2, the "shadow magic" mod which adds shadow adepts into the game, has the charname shadow adept losing caster levels, casting speed and other important variables while exposed to sunlight. His summoned shades also are weaker at sunlight.

But look to Pathfinder Kingmaker/WoTR, not only has D/N cycle but also seasons. with snow at the winter among other things.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Have the companions found a reliable laxative yet?

They were dumbed down into being more likeable a long time ago, if that's what you mean.

Especially Shadowheart, who now has a literal button in the tutorial to make her like the player right away instead of actually having to work to earn her trust.

I will give the team points for not making her a complete slutbag like Aerie, Jaheira or Viconia, even though I'm sure there are many that would prefer them.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Why not just multiclass as warlock/sorc then? It's one of the best 5e combos.

Why would that be any good?

Seriously I have no idea.

Agonising blast and a sorcerer's spell progression and metamagic. In 5e at least it also allowed cheese such as converting your warlock spells into sorcery points, then short resting for more sorcery points.

I guess, but is it really worth it when you'll be 2 levels behind the Sorcerer's spell progression and metamagic? Plus your blast will always be just 1 beam.

Caster level isn't really a thing in 5e. You will get two beams as a warlock 2/ sorc 3

 

[Tyranicon]

Eldritch Blast in 5e goes by player level, not class or anything else.

A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.

At Higher Levels. The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels: two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each beam.

With agonizing blast and the other add-ons, it is one of the best, if not the best, no-resource ranged attacks in the game.

 

[Reinhardt]

That is not hard. You just make them dependent upon credit and make demands each day higher demands for maintaining their credit flow. That way you gradually build economical and political influence. After a couple of years, you can buy nobility titles.

or you can just sell titles right away along with firewine bridge.

 

[Reinhardt]

paladin / fiend warlock

and that's why multiclassing should be banned

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Does it have weather at least, or is that location-based?

It will rain cheese vendors everywhere.

"Hallelujah, it's a raining men (with many cheeses)..."

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Faery Tale Adventure already had a day/night cycle in a 2D Open World RPG created in 1986, and a decade later Daggerfall had a day/night cycle in a 3D Open World RPG. The onset of night in Faery Tale Adventure generated semi-realistic darkness (which could be altered by a particular magic item, but these were consumable and only lasted for a limited amount of time) and therefore posed a logistical issue for the player, who would attempt to complete any long journeys before nightfall. Daggerfall had schedules for shops, which would close at certain times, and the city of Daggerfall itself was haunted at night by the ghost of Lysandus.

Immersion is a major aspect of any Open World game, and, even without any gameplay effects, a day/night cycle provides a degree of realism, whereas any sense of immersion is ruined with an unchanging time of day. Aesthetics can also be enhanced from the lighting changes that follow the day/night cycle.

Furthermore, there are various minor changes in content or game mechanics that can accompany a day/night cycle and contribute to its value. Dragon's Dogma, for example, has more-dangerous undead enemies appear at night, giving the player a reason to try to avoid journeying at night, perhaps finding a rare resting place to await the morning. A game with turn-based combat might give players penalties to combat to-hit rolls at night, while many enemies might conversely be penalized for fighting in bright light.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

I think the reason for the lack of a day/night cycle is more for narrative purposes. They want players to go back to camp, since that's where a lot of events take place. And they probably also did it to make certain scenes easier to animate and script.

BG3 isn't the first game to try this approach. Look back to the Dragon Age games. They did something similar.

It's easy to script encounters that occur anywhere in a top-down, 2d game. All you need is to have a character walk in from offscreen, fade to black, whatever. It's harder in a 3D game with cinematics, campfires etc. You end up with scenes where characters clip through walls.

Not that it's impossible. But I'm sure the devs had to figure out where they wanted to spend their time early on.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Does it have weather at least, or is that location-based?

As far as EA was concerned, I didn't see "weather" in any form. Location-based OR dynamic.

Maybe we can see weather and day night cycle in D:OS 4, when the technology is there.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Does it have weather at least, or is that location-based?

Maybe I remember badly, but in DOS2 there are weather effects, which also impact on game mechanics (e.g. when it rains, fire doesn't last on terrains, etc.)

 

[AwesomeButton]

how easy it is to start most of combat encounters with surprise round? with multiclassing you can get some silly stuff

would need 3 rogue 5 ranger 2 fighter

only works for first turn but all that bonus dmg + crit dmg maybe throw in hunter's mark too for 6 attacks + there might be some feats that give more extra attacks

also is every hit made from hide counted as surprise? other than first turn still getting 1 crit + 1 extra attack for turn 2 or later turns does not sound too bad.

When later editions of D&D start coming up with these pseudo-simulationist "take your modifier for a totally unrelated attribute" abilities, it's really pathetic.

 

[Gargaune]

I think the reason for the lack of a day/night cycle is more for narrative purposes. They want players to go back to camp, since that's where a lot of events take place.

Dynamic day/night doesn't present an impediment to Larian's camping mechanic, you can have time flow and still teleport players back to their abstract camp to rest. It's just expediency in their DOS formula, Larian don't want to spend time on dynamic light and complex NPC schedules, nor do they like the presentation of NPCs that ignore day/night, so they just booted the clock from the game, made the levels time-locked. Unfortunately.

And they probably also did it to make certain scenes easier to animate and script.

Yes, the abstract camp is probably designed as a cinematic stage first and foremost, though I'm not happy with the tradeoff, personally. I'd have rather had simpler cinematics and a dynamic camp you'd set down in the "real" levels (kinda like Kingmaker, a physical object with a radius that you have to place in clear space, it can have animation waypoints within). But I'm guessing that a large part of the target demo cares more about having privacy for their candle-lit picnic with the goblin chick.

BG3 isn't the first game to try this approach. Look back to the Dragon Age games. They did something similar.

Yeah, and they got plenty of flack for it.

You forgot a big one - interplay with stealth mechanics.

Oh, and I also forgot one - spell durations. Because of BG3's lack of dynamic time, spells with long duration have to be extended to until rest.

 

[Rhobar121]

Cutscenes anywhere would end very badly. You'd end up with weird camera angles and overlapping objects. The current version is much better.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Dynamic day/night doesn't present an impediment to Larian's camping mechanic, you can have time flow and still teleport players back to their abstract camp to rest. It's just expediency in their DOS formula, Larian don't want to spend time on dynamic light and complex NPC schedules, nor do they like the presentation of NPCs that ignore day/night, so they just booted the clock from the game, made the levels time-locked. Unfortunately.

Not to mention the instanced camping mechanic is ALSO a bad idea on itself and a more contextual system would have been lightyears better.

Cutscenes anywhere would end very badly. You'd end up with weird camera angles and overlapping objects. The current version is much better.

"Contextual cutscenes" (where the important part is the relative position of characters to each other and just having enough free space around) is an already old and consolidated trick in the industry.
They are using it themselves to a limited degree. They just had to make sure that the spots on the map where resting was possible were designed with that in mind.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Dynamic day/night doesn't present an impediment to Larian's camping mechanic, you can have time flow and still teleport players back to their abstract camp to rest.

Except you would lose the time mechanic of the game. Days are tracked. It's not BG where you can spam rest and the date is just a meaningless count. They wanted each day and each rest to progress an event timer. A short one.

Can't do that when some fake ass day/night cycle is running every hour or two.

It's just expediency in their DOS formula, Larian don't want to spend time on dynamic light and complex NPC schedules

Complex NPC schedules? Do you think BG had these? Only Athkatla and Trademeet had anything like this, and they just cleared the filler NPCs off the streets at night. There were no schedules where they each walked into their houses or anything.

Or do you want Skyrim and not BG?

Yes, the abstract camp is probably designed as a cinematic stage first and foremost, though I'm not happy with the tradeoff, personally. I'd have rather had simpler cinematics and a dynamic camp you'd set down in the "real" levels (kinda like Kingmaker, a physical object with a radius that you have to place in clear space, it can have animation waypoints within).

Again, this doesn't work. You could easily have world objects interfere with the scene in a cinematic game. Just being in a walled corridor could do this.

Kingmaker has no cinematic dialog or animations. It's all abstraction. It might as well be 2d.

Yeah, and they got plenty of flack for it.

From who? Here?

Imagine them not being faithful to Baldur's Gate when making a Dragon Age game.

Oh, and I also forgot one - spell durations. Because of BG3's lack of dynamic time, spells with long duration have to be extended to until rest.

I doubt the difference between mage armor lasting 8 hours and it lasting until the next day will matter to most people.

When you're making a game, you have to choose what's more important. Day/night cycles, which are cosmetic in these games and would interfere with their planned narrative, got the axe. Oh well.

There are several things I'm not happy about with this game, but this isn't one. It's just nitpicking at this point.

 

[Anomander]

Day/night cycle was always only bothering me. Who cares about that. I want to go to shops/houses anytime I want. Making me wait for day (rest until sunrise) was always inconvenient. I want to play a game, not simulate life.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Day/night cycle was always only bothering me. Who cares about that.

Thieving bastards like me?

 

[Delterius]

Your choices during all of this are mainly who gets to come along and what reputation you'll have.

that is literally nothing to be quite honest

yes the ability to tackle side quests in a given order gives you the illusion of ownership. but you yourself said that the game does not design for actual choices, and has no consequences in it. yet the term 'choice and consequence' was used in the original argument.

the fact that you're even using reputation is quite telling. baldur's gate is famous for not really supporting an evil party narratively. or in its mechanics. you can't be evil with a good PR because the evil companions will quit you. your choice is wether you have to manage edwin's stupidity, or if you just roll with minsc, get heroic reputation, and is generally richer than an evil person.

the original argument is that larian ignored the 'strong foundation' of baldur's gate and went instead for a 'cinematic experience'. the point is that all the actual strengths of baldur's gate are ignored or misrepresented in favor of a fallout's gate that never existed. the very idea that baldur's gate had 'strong writing' is the most basic bitch wrong opinion out there. yes. you had a stronger sense of ownership with baldur's gate than probably dragon age: origins. but that is only because you subscribe to the todd howard school of player freedom.

that's not a bad thing either. even though i despise skyrim, i still like morrowind. but to say that being able to do the brage quest before or after chapter 3 is somehow superior than handcrafted scenarios with multiple character, skill, and exploration based scenarios with reactivity flowing thereafter is insane, imo.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Thieving bastards like me?

This is a valid point. I will admit thief characters lost out here. Though they lost out on cosmetics. There wasn't much of a nay/night cycle for any NPC.

Thief quests may have been cooler at night, but there were very few of them, and most of them could have been done during the day just as well.

I think the main exceptions to that were that one Talos priest that slept during the night in BG2, and one or two of the thieves guild quests in BG1.

3 quests vs hours spent on fiddling with some rest system and breaking the plot where each day supposedly progresses your transformation in one way or another.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

that is literally nothing to be quite honest

yes the ability to tackle side quests in a given order gives you the illusion of leadership. but you yourself said that the game does not design for actual choices, and has no consequences in it.

Maybe you didn't read the rest of my post. I was basically agreeing with you.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Except you would lose the time mechanic of the game. Days are tracked. It's not BG where you can spam rest and the date is just a meaningless count. They wanted each day and each rest to progress an event timer. A short one.

Can't do that when some fake ass day/night cycle is running every hour or two.

This is a completely made-up problem.

Complex NPC schedules? Do you think BG had these? Only Athkatla and Trademeet had anything like this, and they just cleared the filler NPCs off the streets at night. There were no schedules where they each walked into their houses or anything.

BG1 and 2 admittedly didn't have much going for them in terms of scheduling, but they still had examples for the list I made in spades, plus a certain number of NPC just swapping in and out between day and night... Which while basic is still better than the... absolute nothing that is the alternative.

Again, this doesn't work. You could easily have world objects interfere with the scene in a cinematic game. Just being in a walled corridor could do this.

It's not really the hard problem you are making out to be, not to mention there would also be the second option/compromise of just making the potential "Camping sites" pre-established spots on the existing map, like Solasta does.
You'd have plenty of control of the geometry and characters interaction in it while not dealing with the disappointing and immersion-breaking abstract that is "Every time we rest, we teleport away in our pocket dimension".

I doubt the difference between mage armor lasting 8 hours and it lasting until the next day will matter to most people.

I will concede that this is a decent compromise and not one that bothers me that much.

When you're making a game, you have to choose what's more important.

I agree, and I consider a decent and even barely convincing day(night cycle far more important than some of the things they prioritized. Not to mention far less wasteful than, say, "Origin Characters".
What's worst: its implementation gets increasingly harder if you don't account for it from the get go, so they basically set themselves for failure with messed-up priorities.

 

[Delterius]

that is literally nothing to be quite honest

yes the ability to tackle side quests in a given order gives you the illusion of leadership. but you yourself said that the game does not design for actual choices, and has no consequences in it.

Maybe you didn't read the rest of my post. I was agreeing with you.

yeah i'm just kinda ranting

i like baldur's gate. i just replayed it and am half way through SoA's chapter 2. luv me fighter/mage. it's just incredible to me that people will talk about a version of that game that doesn't really exist. if one were to believe these circa 2006 takes BG1 wasn't a big grassland to explore at your leisure with a frank, okay-ish yet serviceable story. it's fallout planescape and knights of the chalice rolled into one.

but they still had examples for the list I made in spades

no they didn't

Not to mention far less wasteful than, say, "Origin Characters".

It's literally just companion quests which are instead tied to the main character if you want to.

And it's not comparable even. The amount of work to make npc schedules for a game the scale of BG3 is far beyond repurposing some work hours here and there. That is to say in a way that isn't half assed.