Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
Looks like not even the most stalwart zealots on the core target audience's website can defend the all-but-confirmed lack of an option to let the entire party handle interactions and skill checks in dialogue:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...we_just_assume_we_could_switch_dialogue_host/

This is probably another reason why Larian frequently controlled one character at a time whenever they wanted to show off dialogue based skill checks during their presentations.
This seems to be one of the more reasonable takes or am I misunderstanding here? They want to decide who in the party is doing the skill check or talking in a given situation? I mean that makes sense if you run around with a party to pick the best man for the job, because I assume it's going to be same issue if you run only hirelings.
 

Gradenmayer

Learned
Joined
Jul 21, 2019
Messages
612
Looks like not even the most stalwart zealots on the core target audience's website can defend the all-but-confirmed lack of an option to let the entire party handle interactions and skill checks in dialogue:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...we_just_assume_we_could_switch_dialogue_host/

This is probably another reason why Larian frequently controlled one character at a time whenever they wanted to show off dialogue based skill checks during their presentations.
This seems to be one of the more reasonable takes or am I misunderstanding here? They want to decide who in the party is doing the skill check or talking in a given situation? I mean that makes sense if you run around with a party to pick the best man for the job, because I assume it's going to be same issue if you run only hirelings.
It kills the entire point of dialogue rolls though- you can’t fail them if you min max every character for specific social skill.
 

Darth Valer

Literate
Joined
Jul 5, 2023
Messages
44
To be honest I actively plan to rotate my speaking characters according to who makes more sense in a given situation according to theme and context, not skill points. It'd only be a problem for me if the speaking character is actually too much random and out of control at times, but this idea of always having the best skilled fellow to maximize the chance of passing all skillchecks seems childish to me. They even said they want to create interesting scenarios when you fail in dialogues, and there's proof of this in the EA.
 

Gradenmayer

Learned
Joined
Jul 21, 2019
Messages
612
To be honest I actively plan to rotate my speaking characters according to who makes more sense in a given situation according to theme and context, not skill points. It'd only be a problem for me if the speaking character is actually too much random and out of control at times, but this idea of always having the best skilled fellow to maximize the chance of passing all skillchecks seems childish to me. They even said they want to create interesting scenarios when you fail in dialogues, and there's proof of this in the EA.
Yeah, Redditards are complaining, that If companion gets a last hit on the enemy- enemy will beg specifically them for mercy and not player hero. But to me it seems quite reasonable, since you are not distinguished leader of the brainwormed retards running alongside you.
 

Shrimp

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
1,065
Looks like not even the most stalwart zealots on the core target audience's website can defend the all-but-confirmed lack of an option to let the entire party handle interactions and skill checks in dialogue:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...we_just_assume_we_could_switch_dialogue_host/

This is probably another reason why Larian frequently controlled one character at a time whenever they wanted to show off dialogue based skill checks during their presentations.
This seems to be one of the more reasonable takes or am I misunderstanding here? They want to decide who in the party is doing the skill check or talking in a given situation? I mean that makes sense if you run around with a party to pick the best man for the job, because I assume it's going to be same issue if you run only hirelings.
There's nothing wrong with picking the right man for the job given whatever situation you find yourself in. The problem is the game will some times arbitrarily make the decision for you resulting in situations that make no sense and have no reason to unfold. You can check the replies to the linked thread for various examples.
 

Kiste

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
681
There's nothing wrong with picking the right man for the job given whatever situation you find yourself in.
So when you're out drinking with your mates do you check everyone's CHA ability score before deciding who gets to talk?
 

CodexTotalWar

Learned
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Messages
121
who are these fanboys

me and everyone i knew who playing ad&d at the time had bg1 as their favourite game and absolutely loved #2

the same was true about just about every online bg community at the time

though i was a retard kid back then, i used to like tob more than bg2

This wasn't right at release but it's one of the earlier threads about it I can find.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/why-was-bg2-subpar.1935/
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,685
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm replaying the bg-series in prep for 3, and one thing that's funny about doing that while reading this thread on the side is how lulzily memeish the majority of bg1's writing is. it changes a lot in 2, but a lot of 1's actual writing besides the main plot is everything from fastest dart thrower in the west to siding with druids on the promise of aloe vera balm rewards
Totally true. Lamenting BG3's writing while contrasting it to previous BGs is ridiculous.

If something is worth the regret it is that games today, because of the better "production values", dictate too much about the environment and characters and leave very little room, if any, for the player's imagination. This is regretful, because utilising your audience's imagination is both cheap for you, and "perfect" for the audience, in terms of everyone being satisfied with what their mind presents them with.

Low production values and limited medium through which to develop characterisation lead to simpler characters revolving around well known tropes, because they are easier to communicate to the player.

How was Jaheira characterized in BG - portrait, text, some voiced lines, selection/command sounds and that was it. That was quite enough to characterize the stereotypical nagging wife. Nowadays every writer strives to make every character into an Oscar-worthy Dostoyevski-grade amalgamation of drama, tragedy, personal issues, romantic aspirations, and whatnot, or at least so it seems to the doofus who wrote that character.

I guess the conclusion is that if you remember old games for having good writing, it's likely not the writing, but it's your mind having been better at filling the blanks. Nowadays there's no blanks - you are watching interactive TV, not playing a game.
 

Drakortha

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,831
Location
Terra Australis
You unironically said FA3 -> FA4 introduced more innovation than DoS:2 -> BG3. At that point nothing you say can be taken seriously.
It fucking did though.

Same game engine, sure. But fidelity was way higher in Fallout 4. The introduction to crafting and weapon and armor modding, and how every item in the game can be salvaged, the way power armor was no longer just a change of clothes but an entire vehicle. Fucking diagonal running animations, WAY better gunplay, full settlement building system. The list goes on.

What the fuck does BG3 offer someone who played DOS2 that they haven't already experienced? Not much, honestly. Same turn based, identical graphics (yes they are fucking identical, or at the very least VERY comparable. changes to shaders and post processing effects don't count). Same lack of day / night cycles. Same small party sizes. The only innovation they did was combine the DnD ruleset and added cutscenes. Cutscenes that already exist in Fallout 4 and Dragon Age. So where's the innovation to be found? The sex scenes? They seemed pretty proud of that, didn't they? I guess that's it.

I'm not a fan of either game, it's just a fact. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not true.
 
Last edited:

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,685
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Nerevar In the event you are unaware, Baldur's Gate 2's Paladin companion, Keldorn, has the side quest where you figure out his wife has been engaged in a sexual affair with a noble while Keldorn has been busy executing the duties of the Knights of the Radiant Heart. You, the Party Leader, due to your status and influence have the unenviable duty of persuading Keldorn to either stick with his family or stick by his honor. This Choice and Consequence is infamous and well-loved by the community.
BTW how come a paladin is married? Stupid idea.
 

copebot

Learned
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
387
I'm replaying the bg-series in prep for 3, and one thing that's funny about doing that while reading this thread on the side is how lulzily memeish the majority of bg1's writing is. it changes a lot in 2, but a lot of 1's actual writing besides the main plot is everything from fastest dart thrower in the west to siding with druids on the promise of aloe vera balm rewards
Totally true. Lamenting BG3's writing while contrasting it to previous BGs is ridiculous.

If something is worth the regret it is that games today, because of the better "production values", dictate too much about the environment and characters and leave very little room, if any, for the player's imagination. This is regretful, because utilising your audience's imagination is both cheap for you, and "perfect" for the audience, in terms of everyone being satisfied with what their mind presents them with.

Low production values and limited medium through which to develop characterisation lead to simpler characters revolving around well known tropes, because they are easier to communicate to the player.

How was Jaheira characterized in BG - portrait, text, some voiced lines, selection/command sounds and that was it. That was quite enough to characterize the stereotypical nagging wife. Nowadays every writer strives to make every character into an Oscar-worthy Dostoyevski-grade amalgamation of drama, tragedy, personal issues, romantic aspirations, and whatnot, or at least so it seems to the doofus who wrote that character.

I guess the conclusion is that if you remember old games for having good writing, it's likely not the writing, but it's your mind having been better at filling the blanks. Nowadays there's no blanks - you are watching interactive TV, not playing a game.
This is also reflected in terms of raw time spent while the game is running. BG1 has the best ratio of gameplay:reading. Even BG2's most voice and dialogue heavy scenes in which Irenicus is doing something and laughing evilly take less time to experience than a routine interaction with an inanimate object in BG3 which includes fully voiced narration and pointless skill checks. The writing could be workaday-servicable in those games and not have a major negative impact on the experience.

With the current "RPG" paradigm, you are also watching multiple season's worth of badly animated television with CYOA elements in addition to playing a game. This is why I can't even contemplate replaying Cyberpunk: I know that I will have to laboriously skip through enormous amounts of dialogue to "play" the "game." This puts more pressure on the writing than any team is likely going to be able to live up to.
 

Swen

Scholar
Shitposter
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
2,109
Location
Belgium, Ghent
You unironically said FA3 -> FA4 introduced more innovation than DoS:2 -> BG3. At that point nothing you say can be taken seriously.
It fucking did though.

Same game engine, sure. But fidelity was way higher in Fallout 4. The introduction to crafting and weapon and armor modding, and how every item in the game can be salvaged, the way power armor was no longer just a change of clothes but an entire vehicle. Fucking diagonal running animations, WAY better gunplay, full settlement building system. The list goes on.

What the fuck does BG3 offer someone who played DOS2 that they haven't already experienced? Not much, honestly. Same turn based, identical graphics (yes they are fucking identical, or at the very least VERY comparable. changes to shaders and post processing effects don't count). Same lack of day / night cycles. Same small party sizes. The only innovation they fucking did was combine the DnD ruleset and added cutscenes. Cutscenes that already exist in Fallout 4 and Dragon Age. So where's the innovation to be found? The sex scenes? They seemed pretty proud of that, didn't they? I guess that's it.

I'm not a fan of either game, it's just a fact. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not true.
Just letting you know DOS2 is the highest rated RPG on metacritic

https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/genre/metascore/role-playing/all?view=detailed


(pls ignore platform thx)
 

Kiste

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
681
With the current "RPG" paradigm, you are also watching multiple season's worth of badly animated television with CYOA elements in addition to playing a game.
That's pretty much on point and I think BG2/NWN was when the scales began to tip . Then came KotOR and that has essentially become the formula for that type of RPG ever since. That was 20 years ago.
 

Drakortha

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,831
Location
Terra Australis

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,685
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Why the fuck are Dragonborn a thing?
I had this in multiquotes but I forgot about it. Human, dwarf, elf and halfling should be the only playable races, I'm serious. Dragonborn contribute nothing while diluting the setting further. But the worst shit I've seen is the "Goliath" - race of "competitive" non-giants and the "Fir-Bolg", which don't even know if they have anything characteristic about them. But why not ape Irish mythology for a cool sounding two-syllable name, for no reason whatsoever.
It's interesting that your examples for great writing are games that barely have any.
You should look up my posts in the IWD thread. I've done some thinking out loud on what makes its writing so classic and timeless.
 

Drakortha

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,831
Location
Terra Australis
Why the fuck are Dragonborn a thing?
I had this in multiquotes but I forgot about it. Human, dwarf, elf and halfling should be the only playable races, I'm serious. Dragonborn contribute nothing while diluting the setting further. But the worst shit I've seen is the "Goliath" - race of "competitive" non-giants and the "Fir-Bolg", which don't even know if they have anything characteristic about them. But why not ape Irish mythology for a cool sounding two-syllable name, for no reason whatsoever.
They did it for the brainless masses who can't separate Dragonborn from Skyrim. Larian know you're all retarded and are just telling it to you bluntly.
 
Last edited:

Kiste

Augur
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
681
They did it for the brainless masses who can't separate Dragonborn from Skyrim. Larian know you're all retarded and are just telling it to you bluntly.
Dragonborn have been a playable race in the DnD PHB since 4th edition, years before Skyrim was released, you dolt.
 

Larianshill

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
1,917
Dragonborn have also been in 3.5, but the brainless retard who only wants to endlessly bitch about things he knows nothing about is not aware of it.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom