Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Doktor Best]

I actually suspect we had a productive week.

Did they cancel TB and produce RTwP?

*breaks bottle on counter*

STAY AWAY FROM MY TURNBASED I WILL CUT YOU

 

[Stella Brando]

I'm in a weird mood, I feel like playing some Baldur's Gate, but I also don't feel like going through the huge story again.

Starting the Baldur's Gate series is like starting a long TV show. I kind of wish there more options to just screw around like in Bethesda games.

Maybe I'll chance fire up BG1 and run around the countryside a bit. Or focus on getting to Dragonspear, I've never played it.

 

[vortex]

*breaks bottle on counter*
STAY AWAY FROM MY TURNBASED I WILL CUT YOU

It was never your TURNBASED to start with! BG3 is just some stranger I used to know.

 

[Jedi Exile]

I'm in a weird mood, I feel like playing some Baldur's Gate, but I also don't feel like going through the huge story again.

Starting the Baldur's Gate series is like starting a long TV show. I kind of wish there more options to just screw around like in Bethesda games.

Maybe I'll chance fire up BG1 and run around the countryside a bit. Or focus on getting to Dragonspear, I've never played it.

Baldur's Gate is quite open, you can go almost anywhere on a huge map after Candlekeep.

 

[Elex]

I actually suspect we had a productive week.

Did they cancel TB and produce RTwP?

I'd be content if Larian would replace that nasty Githyanki thing with some eye candy like Triss Merigold... but that won't happen either.

Mods will fix tits.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

Ahhhh "Mod will fix" aka "this is decline in a polite way"

 

[Stella Brando]

Baldur's Gate is quite open, you can go almost anywhere on a huge map after Candlekeep.

Yeah I know, I've been playing it since I was a kid. I'm just trying to describe my conflicting emotions.

 

[Saravan]

World is in a global pandemic with impending systemic collapse of world economy and codex still find time to cry here.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

World is in a global pandemic with impending systemic collapse of world economy and codex still find time to cry here.

We got our priorities straight, and it's not like much changed in codexians life style.

 

[alighieri]

After playing a bit of Baldur's Gate 2 I welcome a turn-based battle system in BGIII. I really like the battle system of BGII, but mostly the underlying mechanics. The micromanagement and the shit-tier KI of my companions are just a pain in the ass.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

translation: RTWP is too hard for another srublord.

 

[alighieri]

translation: RTWP is too hard for another srublord.

Nah, it's just a pain in the ass.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Even Corona can't kill BG3

Working from home is incredibly underestimated/underutilized, I'm expecting it to become a lot more popular due to this.

Eh, companies prefer to police you in their cubicles rather than have you do your work at home.

Ahhh not really,most company here already have home office implemented a few years ago. You could work from home a few days every week. Tho in my opinion is pure decline and modern day laziness. Can't wait corona chan fucking up most of those progressive companies.

Eh I got free 1 day WFH every 2 weeks and it's nice. I don't have to do 1.5 hours commute to get to the office, I can wake up like 30 minutes before work, take a quick shower, and open my laptop.

I still have to be online on-time, I can't take the WFH if I have an important meeting, and I can still be off at my usual time. Heck I can usually "go-home" earlier because there is no boss making a request at the last minute. And because it's home, I don't need to do 1.5 hours commute. I can spend that time cooking dinner instead of take-out. Or get earlier sleep. Or play some more games if it happens to be Friday. And normal working hours still apply. People can't fuck off if they call me off working hours.

It does require the people doing this to be professional and so far all is dandy. It also might not be effective for some-line of works. And it can be a hassle if shit happens in work when you are home because suddenly you are dozens of kilometers away from the rest of the team.

Still, it's nice. So suck it conservatives, progressive WFH is cool

 

[passerby]

translation: RTWP is too hard for another srublord.

Nah, it's just a pain in the ass.

So, it's just too hard ?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

translation: RTWP is too hard for another srublord.

Nah, it's just a pain in the ass.

So, it's just too hard ?

It's simply not efficient. Either have a RT system akin to DoW II or have it be TB.

With RTwP you either get easy encounters in which you end up just speeding it up and waiting for the combat to play out by itself OR you waste time in harder encounters by waiting for cooldowns and/or current actions to end, pause the game and then issue the next actions within your party's character rotations.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

With RTwP you either get easy encounters in which you end up just speeding it up and waiting for the combat to play out by itself OR you waste time in harder encounters by waiting for cooldowns and/or current actions to end, pause the game and then issue the next actions within your party's character rotations.

All of this is worse in TB.

In TB game with bad encounter design (like you know, nearly all modern TB CRPG), combat is slow and will bore you to death. And instead of "letting it play by itself" you have to issue Attack commands 6 times a turn. And wait enemies to do so. And wait again.

Cooldown doesn't have anything to do with TB/RtWP. If your TB has cool down you will wait for cooldown and action to end. And in TB it will be slower.

The argument of inefficient is insane. TB is the least efficient, action economy wise. It's a matter of overall system and encounter design which makes a game good or a pain in the ass. DOS 2 as a TB game checked all the wrong boxes for the combat making it nigh unplayable boredom.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

With RTwP you either get easy encounters in which you end up just speeding it up and waiting for the combat to play out by itself OR you waste time in harder encounters by waiting for cooldowns and/or current actions to end, pause the game and then issue the next actions within your party's character rotations.

All of this is worse in TB.

In TB game with bad encounter design (like you know, nearly all modern TB CRPG), combat is slow and will bore you to death. And instead of "letting it play by itself" you have to issue Attack commands 6 times a turn. And wait enemies to do so. And wait again.

Cooldown doesn't have anything to do with TB/RtWP. If your TB has cool down you will wait for cooldown and action to end. And in TB it will be slower.

The argument of inefficient is insane. TB is the least efficient, action economy wise. It's a matter of overall system and encounter design which makes a game good or a pain in the ass. DOS 2 as a TB game checked all the wrong boxes for the combat making it nigh unplayable boredom.

Then what we are arguing about is not combat systems in themselves, but the general trend of faulty TB implementation.

Both TB and RT have their strengths when implemented properly. Challenging RTwP on the other hand tries to play on the strengths of TB and thus is a mediocre bastardization of it, with the player issuing strategic orders without being under duress from time constraints as it is in the case of pure RT.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Then what we are arguing about is not combat systems in themselves, but the general trend of faulty TB implementation.

That's the thing. There is no such thing as an inherently good combat system. It depends on the implementation.

Both classic BG, IWD, and PfK, for example, is infinitely more playable than modern TB cRPG except Underrails (which is a good TB implementation).

Arguing which system is inherently superior will always leads to "No True Scottsman" like "oh but but all of these TB games are newfags games. they doesn't count" bullshit.

EDIT: and the problem you pointed out in RtwP allegedly depends on the implementation as well, not ineherent problem with RtwP

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Then what we are arguing about is not combat systems in themselves, but the general trend of faulty TB implementation.

That's the thing. There is no such thing as an inherently good combat system. It depends on the implementation.

Both classic BG, IWD, and PfK, for example, is infinitely more playable than modern TB cRPG except Underrails (which is a good TB implementation).

Arguing which system is inherently superior will always leads to "No True Scottsman" like "oh but but all of these TB games are newfags games. they doesn't count" bullshit.

EDIT: and the problem you pointed out in RtwP allegedly depends on the implementation as well, not ineherent problem with RtwP

Well, I tend to agree with you. I myself prefer TB over RT, but I can also understand why the latter might be (more) appealing to some gamers.

I just find that RTwP is a cop-out for not being able to implement either of the two pure systems properly. Are many RTwP RPGs overall good in terms of the combat experience? Sure, but that's in spite of the hybridized system, not because of it.

The way I see things, a RT fan wants to apply tactics under duress and to react directly to the AIs moves as they are occuring while a TB fan wants to apply his strategic thinking against the AI in a game of planned attacks and counterattacks. There is of course some level of strategy required in RT games, just as there can be tactics under duress in TB (i.e. timers such as those in chess tournaments), but those are only byproducts of the way in which the system is implemented and shouldn't work in the detriment of it.

If we can agree that RTwP fans tend to prefer being strategically challenged rather than having to focus on the strength of their hand-eye coordination and fast thinking as is the case with ARPGs, then TB is simply the superior system for that sort of preference in gameplay.

 

[NJClaw]

Well, I tend to agree with you. I myself prefer TB over RT, but I can also understand why the latter might be (more) appealing to some gamers.

I just find that RTwP is a cop-out for not being able to implement either of the two pure systems properly. Are many RTwP RPGs overall good in terms of the combat experience? Sure, but that's in spite of the hybridized system, not because of it.

The way I see things, a RT fan wants to apply tactics under duress and to react directly to the AIs moves as they are occuring while a TB fan wants to apply his strategic thinking against the AI in a game of planned attacks and counterattacks. There is of course some level of strategy required in RT games, just as there can be tactics under duress in TB (i.e. timers such as those in chess tournaments), but those are only byproducts of the way in which the system is implemented and shouldn't work in the detriment of it.

If we can agree that RTwP fans tend to prefer being strategically challenged rather than having to focus on the strength of their hand-eye coordination and fast thinking as is the case with ARPGs, then TB is simply the superior system for that sort of preference in gameplay.

What the fuck are you doing. No reasoning is allowed on this topic.

These are the only legal posts about the TB/RTwP argument:

"Fuck you, TB is boring and retarded"

and

"Fuck you, RTwP is boring and retarded"

That's it, anything else is unacceptable.

 

[Lacrymas]

Fuck you, RTwP is boring and retarded.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Well, I tend to agree with you. I myself prefer TB over RT, but I can also understand why the latter might be (more) appealing to some gamers.

I just find that RTwP is a cop-out for not being able to implement either of the two pure systems properly. Are many RTwP RPGs overall good in terms of the combat experience? Sure, but that's in spite of the hybridized system, not because of it.

The way I see things, a RT fan wants to apply tactics under duress and to react directly to the AIs moves as they are occuring while a TB fan wants to apply his strategic thinking against the AI in a game of planned attacks and counterattacks. There is of course some level of strategy required in RT games, just as there can be tactics under duress in TB (i.e. timers such as those in chess tournaments), but those are only byproducts of the way in which the system is implemented and shouldn't work in the detriment of it.

If we can agree that RTwP fans tend to prefer being strategically challenged rather than having to focus on the strength of their hand-eye coordination and fast thinking as is the case with ARPGs, then TB is simply the superior system for that sort of preference in gameplay.

I agree except for the timer part for a TB cRPG.

Nope, this is just another shitty idea.

If you want some stressful encounters which takes everything you get to stay alive, just (re) play wizardry 8, great combat system with a matching music and sound effects, it gets you exactly where you want to be, the world doesn't exist anymore, just your 2handed level 3 mook fighter facing a king crab.

Fortunately for him, after 2 mispells, the mage finally puts the crab to sleep, giving the party some room to breath and no, when you put an enemy to sleep in wizardry 8 tough early fights, you don't hit them right away, you take one (or two) turn to heal, buff and rest before you go again, hoping the King Crab won't wake up ... Which he does ...

No need to add fucking timers, just the opposite, 99% of the time, it'll ruin the fun.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I agree except for the timer part for a TB cRPG.

We agree on that. I was just mentioning timers since someone could've argued that TBs are not necessarily purely strategic by way of that chess analogy.

 

[Lacrymas]

You can go the WH40k: Mechanicus route and make the enemies become stronger the more you dilly-dally.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

The way I see things, a RT fan wants to apply tactics under duress and to react directly to the AIs moves as they are occuring while a TB fan wants to apply his strategic thinking against the AI in a game of planned attacks and counterattacks. There is of course some level of strategy required in RT games, just as there can be tactics under duress in TB (i.e. timers such as those in chess tournaments), but those are only byproducts of the way in which the system is implemented and shouldn't work in the detriment of it.

The problem is there is no strategic thinking in just normalTB implementation. For TB to work, you have to have duress, especially time, or in case of old X-COM throwing stupidly high odds in enemy favor and incredible flavor of RNG. Of course, we are talking people with at least basic understanding of system. The moment the player does, in case of RPG, there is no strategy involved in TB as the player has an overwhelming advantage in any given situation. The combat becomes less strategic and more build focused (certain build will always win) and RNG based (dice rolls).

Long War and XCOM 2 "fixes" this flaw in TB by having time limits which force you to actually strategize instead of 1 true strategy of turtling and bait enemy aggro in TB. Underrail in higher difficulties is unfair to the player and the main challenge is being outnumbered and actually building a character that works. Most TB RPG doesn't do these, and it is an inherent flaw with the system.

I just find that RTwP is a cop-out for not being able to implement either of the two pure systems properly.

Instead of a cop-out I would argue that it is the best of both worlds. You are still forced to multi-task even with pause existing. It gives another dimension in challenging the player. No it's not supposed to be RTS hard, which is why PoE failed with its low number short duration buff/debuff which either requires you to have higher APM or basically force you to break the flow by spamming pause. You could argue that "You can just pause every other action LUL" and yes, it is a systemic flaw. Putting duress like "you can only pause for a limited time every other round/minute, I think will make the system better."

Are many RTwP RPGs overall good in terms of the combat experience? Sure, but that's in spite of the hybridized system, not because of it.

TB-mod for Kingmaker shows that in TB game without duress/time-limitation the combat becomes insanely slow-paced and overwhelmingly easy in favor of the player. The same would happen with BG 1 & 2. It is a game designed for RtwP and the combat is enjoyable precisely because the overall design. You can't separate overall design from a game. And Pathfinder is "supposed" to be TB and yet keeping everything in Kingmaker and only changing the combat to TB results in an overall worse game.

In the end let's agree to disagree.