Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 RELEASE THREAD

[Infinitron]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/t...f-character-concepts-it-was-a-huge-huge-list/

To create its cast of Baldur's Gate 3 companions, Larian came up with 'hundreds and hundreds' of character concepts: 'It was a huge, huge list'​

Character classes were the last details finalized in the Baldur's Gate 3 party's long iteration process.

It's hard to imagine now, but when Baldur's Gate 3's six beloved companion characters were first imagined, they were just a handful of one-line pitches among "hundreds and hundreds" of other possible character concepts. Their origins were revealed last week during BAFTA's "An Evening with Baldur's Gate 3," which included an interview with Larian CEO and co-founder Swen Vincke, writing director Adam Smith, and lead writer Chrystal Ding.

"It was a huge, huge list," Smith said, immediately adding a new top entry to my list of spreadsheets I desperately wish I could see. What else could've been on there, between the tragic vampire and gaslit githyanki? Half-orc bards, maybe? Dwarven union agitators? Elminster's surly stepson?

Whoever the other party members might've been, when Larian went through the long process of winnowing the ranks, the main consideration was how well their stories would play with each other. "We'd go through them and we'd say, are they compatible? Do they overlap too much? Are we going to be repeating ourselves in the stories here?" Smith said. "And do they fit the themes? That was the most important thing."

As Smith described it to host Jane Douglas, across years of development and early access testing, the companion characters that made it into the game have remained unchanged from their original, core concepts. "What was the heart of them stayed true," Smith said, "but everything else was open to change."

Crucial to how those core concepts were eventually realized as final characters were their actors, whose performances helped to define how those characters evolved. "There were six years on this thing, right?" Smith said. "For the actors, it was like returning for a season of a TV show—you're coming back knowing what your character has been through."

Races and classes shifted during development: Astarion, Vincke said, was originally imagined as a tiefling, while the default class for the Dark Urge origin story shuffled through almost every available option. In fact, Vincke said class was the last thing to finalize for most of the BG3 cast. "It was really later in the process that we said, 'Okay, we need to lock in certain classes that we want to be compatible with the player,'" Vincke said, but noted that cleric had always been intended for Shadowheart. "We figured everybody was going to need a healer."

The characters' stories and classes, Vincke explained, were the product of an ongoing dialogue between the narrative team, the concept and 3D artists, the cinematics department, the game and level designers, and more besides. Nothing in game development happens in a vacuum, and a change in level geometry or game systems might force a revision for where, when, and how a character's arc might play out.

"Often you could see the stories of companions change in function—'oh, we can tell this story here, but we can't tell that story there,'" Vincke said. "It's a constant process of things affecting one another, and eventually reaching some form of stability."

BAFTA's night of Baldur's Gate 3 panels also featured a group conversation with its cast of voice acting talent, as well as a talk with composer Borislav Slavov. To watch them yourself, keep an eye on the BAFTA YouTube channel, where we're told they'll be available soon.

 

[MerchantKing]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/t...f-character-concepts-it-was-a-huge-huge-list/

It's hard to imagine now, but when Baldur's Gate 3's six beloved companion characters were first imagined, they were just a handful of one-line pitches among "hundreds and hundreds" of other possible character concepts.

With a dozen races and dozens of perversions I'm sure they can generate thousands and thousands of "characters" so this is not surprising.

 

[dutchwench]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/t...f-character-concepts-it-was-a-huge-huge-list/

It's hard to imagine now, but when Baldur's Gate 3's six beloved companion characters were first imagined, they were just a handful of one-line pitches among "hundreds and hundreds" of other possible character concepts.

With a dozen races and dozens of perversions I'm sure they can generate thousands and thousands of "characters" so this is not surprising.

You are quite literally right: shortly before the game released one of the people at Larian said that they don't make character creation systems specifically for the players, but for the devs themselves. Thus making the whole early EA meme about "why are you making boring white dudes" seem like a really confusing thing in hindsight (as if it weren't already).
This is one of the many sources you can find on the claim, they all usually cite Alena Dubrovina.
https://80.lv/articles/larian-expla...ace-sliders-in-baldur-s-gate-3/?comment=16057

“We never make a character creator [...] specifically for the players, even though we sort of do,” Dubrovina told Kotaku. “First of all, when the production starts, we make it for us. Because we knew that the game was gonna be huge. We knew that there’s gonna be too many characters and we knew we need to customize everyone and be prepared for Dragonborns or similar creatures like that. […] So we kind of know that if a design is requested and there’s gonna be — like in a year — 100 [characters] throughout the game, it’s our job to kind of be prepared to make sure that all of those imps or at least some of those imps look unique.”

 

[Old Hans]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/t...f-character-concepts-it-was-a-huge-huge-list/

To create its cast of Baldur's Gate 3 companions, Larian came up with 'hundreds and hundreds' of character concepts: 'It was a huge, huge list'​

Character classes were the last details finalized in the Baldur's Gate 3 party's long iteration process.

It's hard to imagine now, but when Baldur's Gate 3's six beloved companion characters were first imagined, they were just a handful of one-line pitches among "hundreds and hundreds" of other possible character concepts. Their origins were revealed last week during BAFTA's "An Evening with Baldur's Gate 3," which included an interview with Larian CEO and co-founder Swen Vincke, writing director Adam Smith, and lead writer Chrystal Ding.

"It was a huge, huge list," Smith said, immediately adding a new top entry to my list of spreadsheets I desperately wish I could see. What else could've been on there, between the tragic vampire and gaslit githyanki? Half-orc bards, maybe? Dwarven union agitators? Elminster's surly stepson?

Whoever the other party members might've been, when Larian went through the long process of winnowing the ranks, the main consideration was how well their stories would play with each other. "We'd go through them and we'd say, are they compatible? Do they overlap too much? Are we going to be repeating ourselves in the stories here?" Smith said. "And do they fit the themes? That was the most important thing."

As Smith described it to host Jane Douglas, across years of development and early access testing, the companion characters that made it into the game have remained unchanged from their original, core concepts. "What was the heart of them stayed true," Smith said, "but everything else was open to change."

Crucial to how those core concepts were eventually realized as final characters were their actors, whose performances helped to define how those characters evolved. "There were six years on this thing, right?" Smith said. "For the actors, it was like returning for a season of a TV show—you're coming back knowing what your character has been through."

Races and classes shifted during development: Astarion, Vincke said, was originally imagined as a tiefling, while the default class for the Dark Urge origin story shuffled through almost every available option. In fact, Vincke said class was the last thing to finalize for most of the BG3 cast. "It was really later in the process that we said, 'Okay, we need to lock in certain classes that we want to be compatible with the player,'" Vincke said, but noted that cleric had always been intended for Shadowheart. "We figured everybody was going to need a healer."

The characters' stories and classes, Vincke explained, were the product of an ongoing dialogue between the narrative team, the concept and 3D artists, the cinematics department, the game and level designers, and more besides. Nothing in game development happens in a vacuum, and a change in level geometry or game systems might force a revision for where, when, and how a character's arc might play out.

"Often you could see the stories of companions change in function—'oh, we can tell this story here, but we can't tell that story there,'" Vincke said. "It's a constant process of things affecting one another, and eventually reaching some form of stability."

BAFTA's night of Baldur's Gate 3 panels also featured a group conversation with its cast of voice acting talent, as well as a talk with composer Borislav Slavov. To watch them yourself, keep an eye on the BAFTA YouTube channel, where we're told they'll be available soon.

so like every other game dev process since the beginning of time. "We had lots of ideas, but we narrowed it down"

also why does pcgamer keep writing articles like this about bg3? is it AI generated?

 

[MerchantKing]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/t...f-character-concepts-it-was-a-huge-huge-list/

It's hard to imagine now, but when Baldur's Gate 3's six beloved companion characters were first imagined, they were just a handful of one-line pitches among "hundreds and hundreds" of other possible character concepts.

With a dozen races and dozens of perversions I'm sure they can generate thousands and thousands of "characters" so this is not surprising.

You are quite literally right: shortly before the game released one of the people at Larian said that they don't make character creation systems specifically for the players, but for the devs themselves. Thus making the whole early EA meme about "why are you making boring white dudes" seem like a really confusing thing in hindsight (as if it weren't already).
This is one of the many sources you can find on the claim, they all usually cite Alena Dubrovina.
https://80.lv/articles/larian-expla...ace-sliders-in-baldur-s-gate-3/?comment=16057

“We never make a character creator [...] specifically for the players, even though we sort of do,” Dubrovina told Kotaku. “First of all, when the production starts, we make it for us. Because we knew that the game was gonna be huge. We knew that there’s gonna be too many characters and we knew we need to customize everyone and be prepared for Dragonborns or similar creatures like that. […] So we kind of know that if a design is requested and there’s gonna be — like in a year — 100 [characters] throughout the game, it’s our job to kind of be prepared to make sure that all of those imps or at least some of those imps look unique.”

It does make perfect sense. The genitalia sliders were for the devs! Not for the players.

 

[KeAShizuku]

BG3 is quite unique that’s for sure. It succeeds in being a great game scratching those ol itches, while simultaneously being an utter shit with garbage writing and insufferable characters.

Meh. Gameplay is king and that is excellent.

I pity the people who play combat, exploration and build oriented optimization games for the story / to analyze their writing or are so sensitive they cannot tolerate fictional characters they don't like.

Yeah people play 100 hour single player RPGs for the story.

 

[Fedora Master]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/t...f-character-concepts-it-was-a-huge-huge-list/

To create its cast of Baldur's Gate 3 companions, Larian came up with 'hundreds and hundreds' of character concepts: 'It was a huge, huge list'​

Character classes were the last details finalized in the Baldur's Gate 3 party's long iteration process.

It's hard to imagine now, but when Baldur's Gate 3's six beloved companion characters were first imagined, they were just a handful of one-line pitches among "hundreds and hundreds" of other possible character concepts. Their origins were revealed last week during BAFTA's "An Evening with Baldur's Gate 3," which included an interview with Larian CEO and co-founder Swen Vincke, writing director Adam Smith, and lead writer Chrystal Ding.

"It was a huge, huge list," Smith said, immediately adding a new top entry to my list of spreadsheets I desperately wish I could see. What else could've been on there, between the tragic vampire and gaslit githyanki? Half-orc bards, maybe? Dwarven union agitators? Elminster's surly stepson?

Whoever the other party members might've been, when Larian went through the long process of winnowing the ranks, the main consideration was how well their stories would play with each other. "We'd go through them and we'd say, are they compatible? Do they overlap too much? Are we going to be repeating ourselves in the stories here?" Smith said. "And do they fit the themes? That was the most important thing."

As Smith described it to host Jane Douglas, across years of development and early access testing, the companion characters that made it into the game have remained unchanged from their original, core concepts. "What was the heart of them stayed true," Smith said, "but everything else was open to change."

Crucial to how those core concepts were eventually realized as final characters were their actors, whose performances helped to define how those characters evolved. "There were six years on this thing, right?" Smith said. "For the actors, it was like returning for a season of a TV show—you're coming back knowing what your character has been through."

Races and classes shifted during development: Astarion, Vincke said, was originally imagined as a tiefling, while the default class for the Dark Urge origin story shuffled through almost every available option. In fact, Vincke said class was the last thing to finalize for most of the BG3 cast. "It was really later in the process that we said, 'Okay, we need to lock in certain classes that we want to be compatible with the player,'" Vincke said, but noted that cleric had always been intended for Shadowheart. "We figured everybody was going to need a healer."

The characters' stories and classes, Vincke explained, were the product of an ongoing dialogue between the narrative team, the concept and 3D artists, the cinematics department, the game and level designers, and more besides. Nothing in game development happens in a vacuum, and a change in level geometry or game systems might force a revision for where, when, and how a character's arc might play out.

"Often you could see the stories of companions change in function—'oh, we can tell this story here, but we can't tell that story there,'" Vincke said. "It's a constant process of things affecting one another, and eventually reaching some form of stability."

BAFTA's night of Baldur's Gate 3 panels also featured a group conversation with its cast of voice acting talent, as well as a talk with composer Borislav Slavov. To watch them yourself, keep an eye on the BAFTA YouTube channel, where we're told they'll be available soon.

All of them gay

 

[TheKing01]

"I wish for you to end!"

This game is insufferably corny, don't know how you lads did/are doing it. Turned the already mediocre FR setting into LOTR directed by Uwe Boll.

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

Honestly some of the decisions for later-game companions are baffling. Halsin and Jaheira are both druids, meanwhile almost perfect opportunity for a bard companion(Alfira)? Nah, disregard. Iirc Ketheric was at one point planned to be a companion and sure as hell his VA alone would make it worth. Obviously he's too similar to Minthara but still. Sazza ironically could've been turned into companion after you save her 3 times, but nah, you're not getting that either, enjoy your totally not out of place Minsc.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

And even with the companions that we did get, some of the rewrites from the earlier EA versions of their characters are shit.

 

[Old Hans]

And even with the companions that we did get, some of the rewrites from the earlier EA versions of their characters are shit.

and not just companions. Larian tinkered too much in early access and kept changing stuff. there used to be a cool encounter with a group of fishermen who were enthralled by that wounded Illithid at the crash site, and the paladins of Tyr at the tollhouse made more sense

 

[Harthwain]

Lol yeah right, “writing”
I Viconia priestess of Shar of the house DeVir have been raped by a farmer and his sons and that’s why I am so bitter yes. Sob sob. Are you ready to redeem my tight pussy into being neutral, my late bioware fanbase representative?

Yosharian is right - you do miss the point of Viconia (in BG2). Her being "reedemable" or fuckable is not the point (you can only change her alignment if you decide to romance her as a guy). She is a Drow thrust into the World Above, with all what that entails. Except - unlike Drizzt Do'Urden - she is not written to be a do-gooder and is the literal outcast (moreso than even Drizzt Do'Urden in the books).

 

[gurugeorge]

And even with the companions that we did get, some of the rewrites from the earlier EA versions of their characters are shit.

and not just companions. Larian tinkered too much in early access and kept changing stuff. there used to be a cool encounter with a group of fishermen who were enthralled by that wounded Illithid at the crash site, and the paladins of Tyr at the tollhouse made more sense

I think it's generally a stupid idea for developers to listen to players, other than in terms of bugs and/or things that make everyone uncomfortable - i.e. only in terms of negatives, not positives.

In terms of positives, in terms of desiderata, players don't know what they want, or rather, they don't know that half the time what they want would spoil the game for them. Developers should know better.

 

[Rhobar121]

And even with the companions that we did get, some of the rewrites from the earlier EA versions of their characters are shit.

and not just companions. Larian tinkered too much in early access and kept changing stuff. there used to be a cool encounter with a group of fishermen who were enthralled by that wounded Illithid at the crash site, and the paladins of Tyr at the tollhouse made more sense

I think it's generally a stupid idea for developers to listen to players, other than in terms of bugs and/or things that make everyone uncomfortable - i.e. only in terms of negatives, not positives.

In terms of positives, in terms of desiderata, players don't know what they want, or rather, they don't know that half the time what they want would spoil the game for them. Developers should know better.

That's when gems like Dragon Age 4 or Starfield are created

 

[Raghar]

Kinda pisses me off that DnD 4E and 5E are so crap rules that PC games made from that are typically shit.

Do you remember when goblins had 27 kg weight, 122 cm height. And IQ 70-80? Do you remember when dragons were smart and vicious who wanted to be kept in their privacy and didn't want to bother with another idiot that wants to boast he killed a dragon?

Do you remember when pack of wolves was dangerous?

Nowadays we have 3 turn down, reroll for stabilizing. Thus when you do story according to modern Belgian developers you have a character who is goblin (whatever crap they are using nowadays when they don't want to say GENETICS). Who can be put up if you pat him on his butt in next 20 seconds no matter the damage, and he's totally able to solve mathematic equations that are requiring to be smarter than Fermi.

So how much brain would you pack into head of someone weighting 27 kg and has relatively normal type of body? And he shouldn't fall to front because of TOO heavy head. In fact his head shouldn't be heavier than his torso. If we scale it somewhat linearly, we have 3.1111 kg head INCLUDING brain and eyes and teeth for 27 kg goblin. How much brain can you put into it?

Now a goblin population when overpopulated would attack and loot theirs neighbors for sure, and either with war with their neighbors would lose part of goblin population (in fact if they kill overpopulation of their neighbors their neighbors are made peaceful as well) and get loot thus goblin population lives in prosperity, or they would kill their neighbors and replace them on their territories which loves goblin overpopulation problem as well.

And that's the problem with goblin country as your neighbor. Obviously its their territory, if you did something to them when they are letting you live without interference because they have either low population or war with some other neighbor. Then you'd be asshole like goblins and that's BAD because YOU have brain and you are decent state because your population isn't goblins (or orks, or Giants).

 

[Hydro]

Lol yeah right, “writing”
I Viconia priestess of Shar of the house DeVir have been raped by a farmer and his sons and that’s why I am so bitter yes. Sob sob. Are you ready to redeem my tight pussy into being neutral, my late bioware fanbase representative?

Yosharian is right - you do miss the point of Viconia (in BG2). Her being "reedemable" or fuckable is not the point (you can only change her alignment if you decide to romance her as a guy). She is a Drow thrust into the World Above, with all what that entails. Except - unlike Drizzt Do'Urden - she is not written to be a do-gooder and is the literal outcast (moreso than even Drizzt Do'Urden in the books).

Nigger what. She literally dumps sobby shit on you constantly as you were her psychotherapist. Its a “plese help” written all over by a 20 yo hentai coomer.

 

[Haplo]

Kinda pisses me off that DnD 4E and 5E are so crap rules that PC games made from that are typically shit.

I don't really know about 4E, don't care. But 5th ed. translates into a crpg pretty great in BG3.

 

[Nikanuur]

Kinda pisses me off that DnD 4E and 5E are so crap rules that PC games made from that are typically shit.

I don't really know about 4E, don't care. But 5th ed. translates into a crpg pretty great in BG3.

I personally liked 3,5 or Pathfinder the most (...in a video game that is). But I agree with you.

 

[Harthwain]

Nigger what. She literally dumps sobby shit on you constantly as you were her psychotherapist. Its a “plese help” written all over by a 20 yo hentai coomer.

Almost all characters who are not written as straight evil (Edwin and Korgan) do that, so this is not unique to Viconia. Hell, even Sarevok, the ultimate villain from BG1 - is reedemable in ToB. This comes with the assumption that your companions are living beings, with their own personal problems they have to deal with. Frankly, I like that their characters can change (positively or negatively). Makes them feel less two-dimensional. The fact that they press you to do their personal quests (or have their preferences as to how you run the party) is another good thing, because it creates the illusion of urgency and agency. It creates some interesting inter-party dynamics, as opposed to "companions" who are nothing more than witless golems with classes assigned to them.

 

[Nikanuur]

Nigger what. She literally dumps sobby shit on you constantly as you were her psychotherapist. Its a “plese help” written all over by a 20 yo hentai coomer.

Almost all characters who are not written as straight evil (Edwin and Korgan) do that, so this is not unique to Viconia. Hell, even Sarevok, the ultimate villain from BG1 - is reedemable in ToB. This comes with the assumption that your companions are living beings, with their own personal problems they have to deal with. Frankly, I like that their characters can change (positively or negatively). Makes them feel less two-dimensional. They fact that they press you to do their personal quests (or have their preferences as to how you run the party) is another good thing, because it creates the illusion of urgency and agency. It creates some interesting inter-party dynamics, as opposed to "companions" who are nothing more than witless golems with classes assigned to them.

Well said. After all, solving your followers' personal demons in various ways has been an RPG trope since forever.
Funfact: Obsidian / Bioware in their prime even pioneered the mandatory appearance of the basics of therapeutic approaches in respective conversations as the choice for the "good guy," and other games started to copy it for a time. It's the thing where you mostly only lend a sympathetic ear and factually stand by the person, but you never advise the person what they should be doing unless they themselves specifically ask for advice.

However, in the case of BG3, I personally feel that saying that Larian went overboard with all kinds of uneasy, cringey, and complexity-over-depth emo stuff would be an understatement.

 

[Hydro]

Nigger what. She literally dumps sobby shit on you constantly as you were her psychotherapist. Its a “plese help” written all over by a 20 yo hentai coomer.

Almost all characters who are not written as straight evil (Edwin and Korgan) do that, so this is not unique to Viconia. Hell, even Sarevok, the ultimate villain from BG1 - is reedemable in ToB. This comes with the assumption that your companions are living beings, with their own personal problems they have to deal with. Frankly, I like that their characters can change (positively or negatively). Makes them feel less two-dimensional. The fact that they press you to do their personal quests (or have their preferences as to how you run the party) is another good thing, because it creates the illusion of urgency and agency. It creates some interesting inter-party dynamics, as opposed to "companions" who are nothing more than witless golems with classes assigned to them.

Sarevok has become redeemeable because BG2 (as well as ToB) is shit made for gays with the main villain being an emo.

 

[Harthwain]

Sarevok has become redeemeable because BG2 (as well as ToB) is shit made for gays with the main villain being an emo.

BG1 had the same writers (Lukas Kristjanson, James Ohlen) as BG2 and ToB. James Ohlen even becomes the director for ToB. So it is not like some different people are suddenly taking the game in a different direction. But nice try.

 

[kangaxx]

Nigger what. She literally dumps sobby shit on you constantly as you were her psychotherapist. Its a “plese help” written all over by a 20 yo hentai coomer.

Almost all characters who are not written as straight evil (Edwin and Korgan) do that, so this is not unique to Viconia. Hell, even Sarevok, the ultimate villain from BG1 - is reedemable in ToB. This comes with the assumption that your companions are living beings, with their own personal problems they have to deal with. Frankly, I like that their characters can change (positively or negatively). Makes them feel less two-dimensional. The fact that they press you to do their personal quests (or have their preferences as to how you run the party) is another good thing, because it creates the illusion of urgency and agency. It creates some interesting inter-party dynamics, as opposed to "companions" who are nothing more than witless golems with classes assigned to them.

Sarevok has become redeemeable because BG2 (as well as ToB) is shit made for gays with the main villain being an emo.

Are you one of those people who sees the gay in everything because they are truly, honest to god not gay?

 

[Raghar]

Sarevok has become redeemeable because BG2 (as well as ToB) is shit made for gays with the main villain being an emo.

BG1 had the same writers (Lukas Kristjanson, James Ohlen) as BG2 and ToB. James Ohlen even becomes the director for ToB. So it is not like some different people are suddenly taking the game in a different direction. But nice try.

Who was writer in BG1 and wasn't in ToB. ToB was obviously an expansion to be a money grab thus if story for all 3 parts wasn't planned since beginning, writing quality suffers by default.

 

[Nikanuur]

Nigger what. She literally dumps sobby shit on you constantly as you were her psychotherapist. Its a “plese help” written all over by a 20 yo hentai coomer.

Almost all characters who are not written as straight evil (Edwin and Korgan) do that, so this is not unique to Viconia. Hell, even Sarevok, the ultimate villain from BG1 - is reedemable in ToB. This comes with the assumption that your companions are living beings, with their own personal problems they have to deal with. Frankly, I like that their characters can change (positively or negatively). Makes them feel less two-dimensional. The fact that they press you to do their personal quests (or have their preferences as to how you run the party) is another good thing, because it creates the illusion of urgency and agency. It creates some interesting inter-party dynamics, as opposed to "companions" who are nothing more than witless golems with classes assigned to them.

Sarevok has become redeemeable because BG2 (as well as ToB) is shit made for gays with the main villain being an emo.

And yet, in the broader sense of things, bringing the evil ones on the path of goodness is a thing that makes more sense than just dispatching them to the nether-worlds.

Broader things = as if, if you kill them, they just return back as the same evil, wanting even more revenge because you are now someone who wronged them too. You can name it karma, reincarnations with similar predispositions, The Wheel, Vendetta, etc.; however, we have many IRL or gaming theories, sociological studies, or psychological clichés that describe the similar phenomena. And that actually, only true healing of the wrongdoings (evil beings often become evil because someone has wronged them) actually repairs something and stops the ever growing circle of repercussion, hate, destruction, etc.

It's some serious Yoda stuff. And one that is hard to swallow, too, because it puts the "good guys" in an even more unfavorable position—they can't use the same easy-to-come-by faculties as evil can.

Don't get me wrong. Some evil beings are quite utterly irredeemable, and I like to kill evil goblins by the thousands in games. Or I don't strike deals with Liches, hh. Also, I'd probably smack an asshole's face when he took it way too far and repeatedly irl, and I wouldn't defer from violence if it meant saving my loved ones and other options have been depleted, etc. And no, I wouldn't philosoraptor about my attacker's feelings or whatever before defending and hitting back. Maybe only if it puts me in a more favorable position towards victory, etc.

But here, at the table, before the monitor, thinking and musing what's what... I don't know what else makes more sense in the larger picture than the theory of breaking the wheel. In RPGs and IRL too. I've yet to hear one, though I'd hear it very gladly. I don't like this theory much myself, to be honest.