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Game News Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear Released

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,933
The problem is that the retarded shit is too much in your face, its deliberately telling its core audience "Fuck you, deal with it". It really is the single most stupid shit ever written in a game when you think of who is suposed to be buying it. Its so bad it should be considered a bug and patched out.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
The problem is that the retarded shit is too much in your face, its deliberately telling its core audience "Fuck you, deal with it". It really is the single most stupid shit ever written in a game when you think of who is suposed to be buying it. Its so bad it should be considered a bug and patched out.

I hate seeing this political shit regardless, but they didn't even try to hide the fact that they were "edumacating dem der small minded sexist" BG fans of old.
 

Mustawd

Guest
The problem is that the retarded shit is too much in your face, its deliberately telling its core audience "Fuck you, deal with it". It really is the single most stupid shit ever written in a game when you think of who is suposed to be buying it. Its so bad it should be considered a bug and patched out.

I hate seeing this political shit regardless, but they didn't even try to hide the fact that they were "edumacating dem der small minded sexist" BG fans of old.

So I think I'll try to sum it up for all you who apparently think people are doing this out of "I hate muh LGBTs" feelz or whatever. Because I tend to feel the same way that Lhynn and a lot of other people feel about this kind of stuff.

EDITED to highlight main points as this is a huge wall of text.

1. LGBTQ and other minorities are just that; minorities. I live in a very liberal place with a large LGBTQ community close by. Number of Trans people I have literally ever met? Zero. I sometimes see them in public, but that's it. I do know a handful of gay/bisexual people, so that's a bit more common for me. My point? It is that these kind of interactions are still quite rare for 90% of the population. So when you see games being filled with all kinds of trans and other minority characters, it just comes off as artificial, forced, and as tokenism. It's brings me out of the experience and feels like it's being forced in for the sole reason that the people making the decisions are trying to make a political point. And even being socially liberal (feminist of sorts, LGBTQ supporter, gay marriage supporter, ethnic diversity supporter), it bothers me that this kind of political stuff is in there. Especially because it can be extremely jarring in a fantasy setting to think "Oh this is the diversity character XYZ dev decided to jam in here". And people who are trying to shoehorn this stuff truly do not like hearing that. It's the same reason why TV shows with predominantly minority characters (Moesha, George Lopez, etc) tend to struggle. There's not currently enough of that group to prop it up saleswise, so you need to appeal to the majority. And the majority finds it jarring when more than 50% of characters are suddenly gay/trans/furries/mexicans (im hispanic so it'd be like I was visiting home depot)/or black brazilians. Sorry, it is what it is SJWs. Trust me, you'd influence a lot more people in a positive manner if you integrated them in an actual effective and realistic way. Which brings me to...

2. Including these types of characters is normally done in the laziest and most shallow way as possible. Their diversity automatically becomes their defining trait. As if the fact that they were not trans would make them almost meaningless as a character. And this just adds to the tokenism I describe above. When Amber what's her Name says stuff like "I like creating diverse characters", it comes off as insincere because these are are not actual characters. They are vehicles for your agenda to let everyone know "LGBTQ diversity is important!". Ok, I agree with you. Now please kindly stop making fake characters in video games. K' thanks. And yes, this still applies even though BG writing is far from Shakespeare. Which brings me to my other point...

3. It is very difficult, IMO, to integrate a 2016 social norm into a game that supposedly shares the spirit of something from 1998-2000. And this is a fact that was completely ignored by the writer. You can't just shove stuff in and say "Look, it's 1999 guys!". It's the same reason why writing a sequel to Huck Finn in 2016 would be impossible. Because the original was a world where the N-word was common among kids like Huck. And that was not going to change anytime soon. Mind you, I'm not saying it cannot be done. Just that it is difficult and the best way would be to make the character interesting, 3 dimensional, and just as flawed as anyone else. Just as easily mocked as anyone else. And people would have to deal with the fact that it might not share the same sensibilities or the same PCness of 2016. But it probably won't because we are not in 1999. We are in 2016. It's a different world, and not a world that BG fans necessarily expected. They expected 1999. Just as I would expect a true Fallout 3 game coming out in 1999 or 2000 to include a lot of the same gritty themes (hopefully minus as many pop references).


And finally,

4. People tend to think the reaction is new. It's not. People dislike SJW tokenism in other games. But that group is more visible now because this is not Bioware's romance-sim/sjw agenda pushing Dragon Age series. A lot of younger people were kids when the BG games out. So the SJW crowd is probably not as overwhelming as in those types of large mass audience games. Plus, there's a difference when Bioware does it with their crappy franchise, but it can get personal when you start to mess with nostalgia and childhood. The stuff can be extremely frustrating and trigger tons of emotional reactions.

So really, Beamdog should not really be surprised by the reaction to this. They, like a lot of devs, are just out of touch with the old school cRPG crowd that craves some of the games from the late 90s and early 2000s. For many of us, we'd be just happy with that feeling we had when we first booted these old games up in our younger days. Not being reminded of all the subsequent decade and a half of crappy RPGs.


Ok I'm done talking about this because it truly is boring me now. I mean most stuff with RTwP does, but this takes the cake. But I think I did a good job of summarizing where I think a lot of us are coming from. Feel free to add to it if you'd like.

/rant
 
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DarkArcher

Educated
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
64
What's funny is Beamdog doesn't seem to fully understand what people wanted out of more Baldur's Gate. They basically tapped the mod community and grabbed some amateur writers and think they need to expand their audience. It's a real shame to learn this game doesn't deliver to people's expectations.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,719
Location
California
It's the same reason why TV shows with predominantly minority characters (Moesha, George Lopez, etc) tend to struggle.
The fourth most watched TV show of 2015 was Empire. In 2014, the second most watched was apparently Modern Family followed by How to Get Away with Murder. (To be honest, I can never make heads or tails of how TV show viewership is measured, so I don't know if this is right.) I think your point about well-written content that doesn't exist for the purpose of speechifying is probably more apt, and you are probably capturing the real issue when you talk about (gulp) "cultural appropriation." Probably what most upsets people is the perception, whether right or wrong, that Beamdog is saying, "BG once belonged to you, with your values, but now it belongs to us, with our values. And there's nothing you can do about it."

Ultimately, though, this calls to mind the line from A Man For All Seasons: "It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world . . . but for Wales?!" Of all the cultural patrimony to protect, saving BG's writing from this expansion pack seems pretty low on the list. This kind of reworking is totally normal in fan fiction. I don't see people breaking out the pitchforks over Kirk-Spock romances.

--EDIT--

Also, I feel obliged to make a PSA about Huckleberry Finn and sequels. Impossible, you say? Already done, I answer. Behold Tom Sawyer Abroad and Tom Sawyer, Detective, and weep as your idol Mark Twain disrobes for a few sleazy dollars. In the first book, "Tom, Huck, and Jim set sail to Africa in a futuristic hot air balloon, where they survive encounters with lions, robbers, and fleas to see some of the world's greatest wonders, including the Pyramids and the Sphinx." They do, however, still contain ample use of the n-word. :/
 
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Mustawd

Guest
the fourth most watched TV show of 2015 was Empire. In 2014, the second most watched was apparently Modern Family followed by How to Get Away with Murder. (To be honest, I can never make heads or tails of how TV show viewership is measured, so I don't know if this is right.)

Well, I don't watch a lot of tv lately, so my point was not to bring up a recent example, as I'm not 100% familiar with the shows nowadays. But one of the shows I did use (specifically the George Lopez show) DID apparently struggle with mainstream audiences. Which, according to George Lopez, was due to the network "suddenly being too white", aka, they were probably telling him his show didn't appeal to a large enough audience.

However, I think my larger point is that when you have a specific minority group in media, the mainstream audience's expectations matter. Ignoring them risks the alienation of said audience and the mainstream failure of the product. And in the case of niche cRPGs that are successors to games made in the 1990s, the mainstream audience might include people, such as myself, who don't necessarily have a ton of day to day interaction with trans people. So crafting a realistic world is important. And to me that means not having a world where 50% of characters are trans, without a good reason that's integrated with the story. Even then, it's still a bit strange to see more diverse types of characters in a game than I have met in my entire 30 something years of living. And it's not like I live in Alabama or something. I'm talking modern and large metropolitan areas.

Regardless, this is more of a comment on other games, as I think SoD only really has that one trans character. Although, my understanding is that it has some rather unrealistic/jarring lesbian romance type of dialogue. I think the take away here is that it seems to me that many devs don't take this reality into account because it is either unpalatable to them or they are unaware of it due to the social circles they live in. Which really adds to the whole, "devs lack an ability to implement these characters effectively" theme I'm trying to drive home.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,872
So didn't read 13 + 57 pages, is the game any good, all I can see is people from Twitter clogging up my Codex
I'm playing on Insane with all difficulty-based damage/stats/XP/HP disabled. The AI and encounter composition are dependent on game difficulty and combat with casters is playing much like SCS, although not quite as intense, and encounter composition in the beginning was legitimately challenging with a new character rolled just for SoD and using the default companions for the starter dungeon. I'm playing a LE thief and got Viconia, Edwin, Baeloth, Safana and Dorn (they leave after the intro dungeon). Enemies use lots of potions, not just healing but buffing as well, and special abilities.

I'm only just past the starter dungeon but the writing seems on par with the BGs, aside from the stuff quoted in the shit storm (shit maelstrom?) which I haven't seen in-game yet. Met an evil mummy, could kill him or do mummy stuff for an award. Met a lady, could fetch her stuff and be nice, fetch her stuff and demand payment, or tell her to fuck off. These were quests given in a dungeon, so standard BG.

It's scratching an itch, I like it so far. It's legitimately challenging when you don't use max HP on level up and mods that let you wear as much magical +X equipment as you want.
Yeah, thats what stings hard about this, some of it is good, having the whole experience ruined by incompetence on the most superficial level hurts. Its like a decent cake that has shit smeared all over its top. The cake may be good, but theres fucking smelly shit impossible to ignore on it.
This incompetence is such a small part of the game, only people with agenda will keep using it as a excuse to bash the game that is otherwise at least decent if not fun (if you like RTwP combat and play on Insane).

Hey, it is only a small part of shit you found in your food, quit complaining dumb ass, eat up!

You truly earned that "possibly retarded" title.
So no arguments and then insults? What are you? 12?

How can you be so stupid that you can not see the relational logic in my response?

FFS it is like I am teaching a retarded dog how to sit.

You claimed "This incompetence is such a small part of the game", which implies that we should not be upset because this BS is only a small part of the game.

What you fail to understand is that any bit of that can taint the entire experience.

That is.. it is like finding a piece of shit in your food. It is only in a small part of the food and didn't touch the rest, the rest is still good... so eat up right?

No wonder you SJW's are such idiots.
Sorry I don't use logic of a 12 year old. When you grow up think about these things again kid.
Btw I am not a SJW, but I don't expect an angry kid to figure out anything. Thinking is hard for angry kids when kid rage takes over.
For starters tell your mother to give you less sweets every day.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Ultimately, though, this calls to mind the line from A Man For All Seasons: "It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world . . . but for Wales?!" Of all the cultural patrimony to protect, saving BG's writing from this expansion pack seems pretty low on the list. This kind of reworking is totally normal in fan fiction. I don't see people breaking out the pitchforks over Kirk-Spock romances.

Hmm, I actually find it similar to the typical angst over the fact that media now has to try and walk the line of appealing to old audiences enough and trying to "modernize" stuff for the upcoming generation. It's one of the reasons why FO3 was hated so much. So to me it's simply, "get of my lawn you damn kids!"ness. And the fact that gamers are obsessing over rpgs instead of more important issues? C'mon, just look at the PoE threads.

Besides, fan fiction is not necessarily canon. It can be ignored as the fantasies of someone else. It's much harder to ignore when it becomes part of the official story line. Much like the 3 crappy prequels in Star Wars. I mean I know you kind of consider Beamdog as just doing fanfic quality, but it kind is an official part of the series, no?
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,719
Location
California
And the fact that gamers are obsessing over rpgs instead of more important issues? C'mon, just look at the PoE threads.
Obviously people on the forums of RPG Codex should be obsessing over RPGs. And, in general, I think that critical engagement with games is great, great for developers and fans alike. It's just that obsessing over this part of this RPG seems a little silly to me.

esides, fan fiction is not necessarily canon. It can be ignored as the fantasies of someone else. It's much harder to ignore when it becomes part of the official story line. Much like the 3 crappy prequels in Star Wars. I mean I know you kind of consider Beamdog as just doing fanfic quality, but it kind is an official part of the series, no?
I guess it depends on what "kind of" and "official part" mean. But to me, obviously it is not canon. It is made be a different company, composed of different individuals, after all the relevant IPs have been tossed around like a hot potato. That said, I have no trouble writing off all sorts of things as non-canonical, from X-Com: Enforcer to Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel to Starcraft: Resurrection IV to Wing Commander Arena to Star Control III to the PS:T novelization to Nosgoth to the current King's Quest game. I mean, almost every franchise I love has, at one point or another, been licensed to third parties for an expansion or a spin-off game. I would think that by now, gamers would have developed strong coping mechanisms for such outrages. If anything, this seems much more obviously fan fiction insofar as it is basically high end mod, not even a standalone game, and wasn't licensed by the original creators (AFAIK?).
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
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Messages
16,685
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At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
critical engagement with games is great, great for developers and fans alike
Very much this. Though, I'd specify, "great for developers who want to put out a quality product, and not just live out their own fantasies".
 

Mustawd

Guest
I would think that by now, gamers would have developed strong coping mechanisms for such outrages. If anything, this seems much more obviously fan fiction insofar as it is basically high end mod, not even a standalone game, and wasn't licensed by the original creators (AFAIK?).

I think this is fair. Maybe part of the outrage was just the suddenness of it? I don't think people were expecting it all, and it just triggered them pretty hard. At least with the Xcom re-imaginings I can clearly see these are NOT the same X-com I know and love. And I'm pretty sure SoD was marketed as being as close to the original as possible. Which is consistent with the fact that they tracked down all the old voice actors.

I was personally pretty surprised that Beamdog felt comfortable doing this, and was taken aback at the inclusion as well as the clumsiness of how it was implemented. And BG is not even my fav game. I can only imagine how the ton of true fans felt. Probably the same way I did when FO3 came out, but even moreso because at least that game was VERY different in its approach.
 

Space Insect

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
868
Location
Shaggai
I would think that by now, gamers would have developed strong coping mechanisms for such outrages. If anything, this seems much more obviously fan fiction insofar as it is basically high end mod, not even a standalone game, and wasn't licensed by the original creators (AFAIK?).

I think this is fair. Maybe part of the outrage was just the suddenness of it? I don't think people were expecting it all, and it just triggered them pretty hard. At least with the Xcom re-imaginings I can clearly see these are NOT the same X-com I know and love. And I'm pretty sure SoD was marketed as being as close to the original as possible. Which is consistent with the fact that they tracked down all the old voice actors.

I was personally pretty surprised that Beamdog felt comfortable doing this, and was taken aback at the inclusion as well as the clumsiness of how it was implemented. And BG is not even my fav game. I can only imagine how the ton of true fans felt. Probably the same way I did when FO3 came out, but even moreso because at least that game was VERY different in its approach.
You forgot that according to Beamdog, the people who give them negative reviews and don't agree with them are not "real BG fans".
 

Infinitron

I post news
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I would think that by now, gamers would have developed strong coping mechanisms for such outrages.

Most of them probably have. What many gamers have also developed, however, is an addiction to drama. +M
 

oldmanpaco

Master of Siestas
Joined
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Messages
13,619
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Summer
I would think that by now, gamers would have developed strong coping mechanisms for such outrages.

Most of them probably have. What many gamers have also developed, however, is an addiction to drama. +M

If there is one things the SJWs have taught everyone is that if you make a big enough shitstorm out of something people will bend to your needs.

Does this game deserve all the crap its getting? No, of course not. But its apparently the only way to get the message across.

Also like you said drama is fun.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
Retro-ing anything widely held up as a classic is always a minefield. It never goes smooth. There's too many fans involved who all want different things. Something was always going to blow up in their face, 99.999% chance of it. What separates the winners from the losers is how they handle the crisis caused by the detonation.

So, how does Hollywood do it so often? Simple. They define a new, broader audience and sell to them instead. And then they say nothing while the old fans stew, and let the moment pass. And then they count their new billions. The end.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,872
I would think that by now, gamers would have developed strong coping mechanisms for such outrages. If anything, this seems much more obviously fan fiction insofar as it is basically high end mod, not even a standalone game, and wasn't licensed by the original creators (AFAIK?).

I think this is fair. Maybe part of the outrage was just the suddenness of it? I don't think people were expecting it all, and it just triggered them pretty hard. At least with the Xcom re-imaginings I can clearly see these are NOT the same X-com I know and love. And I'm pretty sure SoD was marketed as being as close to the original as possible. Which is consistent with the fact that they tracked down all the old voice actors.

I was personally pretty surprised that Beamdog felt comfortable doing this, and was taken aback at the inclusion as well as the clumsiness of how it was implemented. And BG is not even my fav game. I can only imagine how the ton of true fans felt. Probably the same way I did when FO3 came out, but even moreso because at least that game was VERY different in its approach.
You forgot that according to Beamdog, the people who give them negative reviews and don't agree with them are not "real BG fans".
Can you link me where that was said? I want to see their exact wording and in what context it was said.
I will say that their handling of this was pretty bad, I am just wondering if this exact situation was bad or catastrophic bad.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,719
Location
California
I will say that their handling of this was pretty bad, I am just wondering if this exact situation was bad or catastrophic bad.
Per this article: "Dee Pennyway, assistant producer at Beamdog, . . . wrote on Twitter: 'These are not real #BaldursGate fans. GamerGate launching a negative review campaign for a game that includes one line about a transgender character.'" It also attributes to Trent Oster this quote: "I know our fans can become engrossed in their enjoyment and I really don’t want potential fans to miss out on the series because of protest reviews by small minded individuals."
 

Mustawd

Guest
Retro-ing anything widely held up as a classic is always a minefield. It never goes smooth. There's too many fans involved who all want different things. Something was always going to blow up in their face, 99.999% chance of it. What separates the winners from the losers is how they handle the crisis caused by the detonation.

So, how does Hollywood do it so often? Simple. They define a new, broader audience and sell to them instead. And then they say nothing while the old fans stew, and let the moment pass. And then they count their new billions. The end.

It's different when the audience is mainly made up of fans of the original. It's easier for Hollywood because the audience is made up of various groups, which are enough to offset negative feelings by hardcore fans. I doubt this is the case with SoD. The butthurt fans are probably not a majority, but if Steam reviews are an indication, it's at least close to 45-50%. Not even counting the people who never bought the game after hearing about the controversy.

Sales-wise, this does not bode well for Beamdog.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
Retro-ing anything widely held up as a classic is always a minefield. It never goes smooth. There's too many fans involved who all want different things. Something was always going to blow up in their face, 99.999% chance of it. What separates the winners from the losers is how they handle the crisis caused by the detonation.

So, how does Hollywood do it so often? Simple. They define a new, broader audience and sell to them instead. And then they say nothing while the old fans stew, and let the moment pass. And then they count their new billions. The end.

It's different when the audience is mainly made up of fans of the original. It's easier for Hollywood because the audience is made up of various groups, which are enough to offset negative feelings by hardcore fans. I doubt this is the case with SoD. The butthurt fans are probably not a majority, but if Steam reviews are an indication, it's at least close to 45-50%. Not even counting the people who never bought the game after hearing about the controversy.

Sales-wise, this does not bode well for Beamdog.


Beamdog has to be the dumbest people on the planet as well. It is one thing to piss off the original fans, but they went on to challenge them, flip the bird and act like fucking idiots which made the non-original audience a bit leery and sympathetic of the original. Beamdog reminds me of 1010.org, that activist climate change site that pushed out the "no pressure" video about wanting to kill all people who disagreed by blowing them up. Even when most people were pointing out the poor judgement and how distasteful it was, they were yammering on about how everyone who didn't agree were deniers, idiots, etc... the fucking morons were completely out of touch with the practical world. Beamdog shows similar behavior. It is rather amusing.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,872
I will say that their handling of this was pretty bad, I am just wondering if this exact situation was bad or catastrophic bad.
Per this article: "Dee Pennyway, assistant producer at Beamdog, . . . wrote on Twitter: 'These are not real #BaldursGate fans. GamerGate launching a negative review campaign for a game that includes one line about a transgender character.'" It also attributes to Trent Oster this quote: "I know our fans can become engrossed in their enjoyment and I really don’t want potential fans to miss out on the series because of protest reviews by small minded individuals."
Ok, that Dee part was catastrophic bad. That was just putting more oil on the fire. I read he deleted the tweet later but damage has been done. Beamdog need some new PR people :D
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Man these SJWs suck. Wtf, Baldurs Gate? How the heck did that become a target for your whiney little movement? Do you honestly have to co-opt freaking everything and infect it with your Marxist BS? Ugh. So freaking dumb.

Beamdog, wtf were you thinking? Wtf do you gain from this? I was honestly thinking of buying this junk. I knew it was basically a stupid BG mod, but I liked BG enough to throw some cash at it. Now I'm not buying anything from you again.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,872
Man these SJWs suck. Wtf, Baldurs Gate? How the heck did that become a target for your whiney little movement? Do you honestly have to co-opt freaking everything and infect it with your Marxist BS? Ugh. So freaking dumb.

Beamdog, wtf were you thinking? Wtf do you gain from this? I was honestly thinking of buying this junk. I knew it was basically a stupid BG mod, but I liked BG enough to throw some cash at it. Now I'm not buying anything from you again.
I am sure they are very sad for not getting some of that sheep wool...
 
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