Bioshock ain't that bad...

[vortex]

Fps Renaissance with good story will come with new Bioshock and Ken's Levine new game.

 

[Roguey]

Why people still bitch about the vita chambers when you can turn them off is beyond me. Just flip one little switch in the options menu and the game functions exactly like Dishonored, Deus Ex or a million other quicksave based games. There are real reasons to find Bioshock unworthy of the "shock" name, but vita chambers is not one of them.

Turning them off means you have to deal with a longer loading screen every time you die, but you can also just reload when you die so.

 

[Maggot]

Finally beat this game after years of uninstalling it after the first area and:

Spoiler

It was boring shit.

 

[kangaxx]

The original Bioshock has aged really badly IMO. The last one is more playable and has its moments, but it's so repetitive. And the crow spell basically ruins the game with how unbalanced it is.

 

[KK1001]

Bioshock, Dragon Age and Oblivion were the twin heralds of the gaming dark ages: each took a prior series and "streamlined" it for mass consumption.

 

[DalekFlay]

Bioshock, Dragon Age and Oblivion were the twin heralds of the gaming dark ages: each took a prior series and "streamlined" it for mass consumption.

Bioshock and Dragon Age Origins are obviously "streamlined" compared to the inspirations, but they executed on what they were trying to do relatively well. Oblivion was not only a more retard friendly version of Morrowind, it also just sucked as a game for a ton of reasons. I wouldn't compare them.

 

[samuraigaiden]

Oblivion's utterly broken level scaling feels like a direct response to players min/maxing Morrowind and complaining it was too easy and exploitable.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Oblivion's level-scaling is far, far worse design ways than anything in Bioshock or DA:O. Playing the game at launch it was immediately evident that Bethesda either straight-up didn't playtest the game or they were too stupid to realize it was a problem/fix it. There's really no other option.

Bioshock for all it's flaws at least had pretty good environmental art, and DA:O was the only real major RPG release of the dark years, so I'm willing to cut it some slack (no desire to ever re-play it though).

 

[Ash]

Oblivion and Bioshock are equally offensive to me, Bioshock possibly moreso. The fucking golden arrow is the most intrusive and retard-friendly version of the quest marker, ever. It's a large UI element that leads you by the hand at every turn. The disappointing standard is to just display the objective's direction as a compass pin. This goes beyond that, in a non-open world game. With open world games there's at least some argument to be made for objective markers. At least Oblivion has an inventory, as ugly and unintuitive it may be. At least Oblivion doesn't have vita chambers. Yeah Bioshock has nice set dressing and polish compared to Oblivion but that doesn't count for much in my book. to me they're both the definitive decline games alongside Gears of War, Assassin's Creed and many other big name games of that era that were all unbelievable downgrades in their respective genres, yet somehow lauded and praised as if they were masterpieces. I was going to list Invisible War but the game was rightly universally shat on and didn't sell all that well. In that one particular case there was justice.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

I'll say this for BioShock: At least it fucking knows what it is. It's not something that's still masquerading as an RPG like Skyrim and Betheada's post-Skyrim games. BioShock doesn't seem nearly as bad; it's just a fairly sloppy FPS, with some nice art direction, that got over hyped 13 years ago. Betheada's shit on the other hand is unplayable: they're open world hack and slash games with some of the worst combat (both in player control and enemy encounters) around, they're stealth games that have seemingly never learned a thing from a stealth game, and for whatever bone headed bizzare reason they keep makes their worlds you're walking around in less interesting despite these worlds seemingly being one of the draws for their audience.

Bioshock, Dragon Age and Oblivion were the twin heralds of the gaming dark ages: each took a prior series and "streamlined" it for mass consumption.

Twin heralds?

 

[DalekFlay]

Oblivion and Bioshock are equally offensive to me, Bioshock possibly moreso. The fucking golden arrow is the most intrusive and retard-friendly version of the quest marker, ever. It's a large UI element that leads you by the hand at every turn. The disappointing standard is to just display the objective's direction as a compass pin. This goes beyond that, in a non-open world game.

You've repeated this over and over in threads like these and every time I tell you that you can turn that arrow off with zero gameplay repercussions. I don't know if you're long con fucking with me or what.

 

[Ash]

You know I love you Dalek.

1. Initially you could not turn it off. Was introduced in a patch.
2. Game is designed around them. turning it off just results in heavy save/load scumming, which is lame decline shit.
3. Just because a dev includes option to disable, doesn't make it right in any case - be it objective markers, vita chambers, infinite ammo...At best I accept is hiding that shit away like cheats old school style, and I'm also more forgiving of games that have such lame options but have them disabled by default. Here's the thing, most gamers don't have a single damn clue why the yellow arrow is bad. Many gamers I know don't even check the options menu at all! Children, dad or bro types that just play from time time, probably all women...these people may even turn these features on if disabled by default, hey it's a helping hand and if the option is there it must be ok? Even people that do play games with some degree of dedication often don't know what they want. Sometimes even I don't know what I want: make snap judgements based on what I hear online or see in a preview, and get concerned that I will not enjoy that game when in practice it could turn out I enjoy it very much. We all do this.
Todays gamers have been coddled by decline era games like Bioshock, now the standards have shifted and gameplay tenets such as exploration/orienteering have been made extinct. Something like Morrowind where you have to truly explore and there is no option to the contrary is simply not viable today. Killed by sellouts.

 

[Ash]

btw to trigger the faggots of the codex: I'm playing Bioshock: Infinite right now (on 1999 mode for my first proper playthrough) and it is WAY better than Bioshock 1/2. No yellow arrow. Vita chambers rob you of 100 bucks upon death. Combat is ok. No time-wasting busywork like much of the original's "gameplay" boils down to (hacking, photography, crafting).

Bioshock 1/2 is like System Shock 2 but for retards.
Bioshock: Infinite is like a Call of Duty or some other decline era popamole shooter but much more interesting, at least w/ 1999 mode enabled.

Still not a great game, but with 1999 mode this actually goes into my "good for what it is.txt". 7/10 at best.

I'll say this for BioShock: At least it fucking knows what it is. It's not something that's still masquerading as an RPG like Skyrim and Betheada's post-Skyrim games.

Wut? It being a sheep in wolves clothing is why I hate Bioshock most of all.

First and foremost it is masquerading as a game when it barely is one, more just a mindless interactive power trip.
Worse still it is masquerading as an intellectual game, which makes it all the more offensive.
Lastly, it is masquerading as an RPG/"immersive sim" (marketing material at the time led people to believe it will be system shock 3 in spirit). It s neither to anyone with standards.

 

[Wunderbar]

I'm playing Bioshock: Infinite right now (on 1999 mode for my first proper playthrough) and it is WAY better than Bioshock 1/2.

1999 mode is an unlockable, it's not available on your first playthrough.

No yellow arrow.

there is an arrow, you just need to press a button for it to show up. Although it is a pointless feature since the game is almost an on-rails shooter.

Vita chambers rob you of 100 bucks upon death.

that's a pretty retarded feature story-wise (did Elizabeth charge you for reviving? wtf), and barely changes anything since there is a ton of money lying around. Plus the game still not hard even on 1999 mode, and the penalty for death just is being revived at a checkpoint.

Combat is ok. No time-wasting busywork like much of the original's "gameplay" boils down to (hacking, photography, crafting).

So for you "hacking, photography and crafting" is a time wasting busywork, while a literal call of duty clone with two weapons limit and like two enemy types is "ok"?

 

[DalekFlay]

1. Initially you could not turn it off. Was introduced in a patch.
2. Game is designed around them. turning it off just results in heavy save/load scumming, which is lame decline shit.
3. Just because a dev includes option to disable, doesn't make it right in any case - be it objective markers, vita chambers, infinite ammo...At best I accept is hiding that shit away like cheats old school style, and I'm also more forgiving of games that have such lame options but have them disabled by default. Here's the thing, most gamers don't have a single damn clue why the yellow arrow is bad. Many gamers I know don't even check the options menu at all! Children, dad or bro types that just play from time time, probably all women...these people may even turn these features on if disabled by default, hey it's a helping hand and if the option is there it must be ok? Even people that do play games with some degree of dedication often don't know what they want. Sometimes even I don't know what I want: make snap judgements based on what I hear online or see in a preview, and get concerned that I will not enjoy that game when in practice it could turn out I enjoy it very much. We all do this.
Todays gamers have been coddled by decline era games like Bioshock, now the standards have shifted and gameplay tenets such as exploration/orienteering have been made extinct. Something like Morrowind where you have to truly explore and there is no option to the contrary is simply not viable today. Killed by sellouts.

I don't know why turning them off would cause save scumming? Anyway, I played both with them off from day one and never had one issue caused by that. Same for the modern Deus Ex and Dishonored games (though there was one hidden safe code in Dishonored's DLCs that was extremely hard to find without a marker). As for exploration elements, it is certainly no Morrowind, but it does have a ton of optional upgrades, recordings and other items you will only find by exploring. There are lots of little shops and other rooms that you would never go into at all if you just followed the marker. Again I am not pretending the game is System Shock 2, it is not, but it's not the linear hallway people sometimes act like it is.

As for challenge, I played it a year or so ago on hard with no vita chambers and it was a relatively good challenge, in the sense you need to craft better ammo, find the upgrades, etc. to play it. No game of this type is ever REALLY a challenge if you take your time and hunt for resources and save often, and that includes all the classics.

Anyway, I am not trying to make anyone realize Bioshock is some amazing game. I think it's an okay game. I think people who act like it's a huge piece of dogshit usually do so because they expected System Shock 3, and it absolutely is not that. Usually when we have these debates people admit that and defend their position because of what Levine promised or it having Shock in the name. I just don't care about that stuff much, I try and take games for what they are. Maybe that sounds like I'm trying to be smug, but I'm not. Just a personality thing I guess, I can detach expectation from experience more than most. Play Bioshock as a pure FPS with some exploration/upgrade flavor on top and it's an enjoyable experience.

 

[Zombra]

Anyone who had to "save scum" Bioshock without vita chambers and quest markers must have been absolute dogshit at shooting, navigation, and resource management.

Wunderbar FYI 1999 mode in Infinite could be unlocked with a code or something, didn't need to complete the game. I played only one playthrough and it was on 1999.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

btw to trigger the faggots of the codex: I'm playing Bioshock: Infinite right now (on 1999 mode for my first proper playthrough) and it is WAY better than Bioshock 1/2. No yellow arrow. Vita chambers rob you of 100 bucks upon death. Combat is ok. No time-wasting busywork like much of the original's "gameplay" boils down to (hacking, photography, crafting).

Bioshock 1/2 is like System Shock 2 but for retards.
Bioshock: Infinite is like a Call of Duty or some other decline era popamole shooter but much more interesting, at least w/ 1999 mode enabled.

Still not a great game, but with 1999 mode this actually goes into my "good for what it is.txt". 7/10 at best.

I'll say this for BioShock: At least it fucking knows what it is. It's not something that's still masquerading as an RPG like Skyrim and Betheada's post-Skyrim games.

Wut? It being a sheep in wolves clothing is why I hate Bioshock most of all.

First and foremost it is masquerading as a game when it barely is one, more just a mindless interactive power trip.
Worse still it is masquerading as an intellectual game, which makes it all the more offensive.
Lastly, it is masquerading as an RPG/"immersive sim" (marketing material at the time led people to believe it will be system shock 3 in spirit). It s neither to anyone with standards.

It is not masquerading as a RPG, and I don't even remember people at the time of its release calling it one. There was a point during it's development where it was a RPG, (I think you can see this in the first footage they every released, and that's it) but that changed a while before it came out. I don't even remember immersive sim being something that was thrown around with regards to the game back in 2007, or any game in 2007 for that matter...it's like a six year old marketing buzzword for games having some systematic element. They did talk about it being a spiritual successor to System Shock 2, but it was also pretty clear in what ways it was and wasn't like that game when it came out.

Out of boredom I did a quick look at some of the review videos from places like IGN, Gamespot, and GameTrailers when BioShock released just to see if I was remembering things right. Unsurprisingly they all call it a First Person Shooter or just a Shooter, none called it a RPG from what I saw or even seemed to regard it as one. If Irrational Games was calling it a RPG at release these reviews likely would have gone along with that; I mean just look at reviews where they're still calling stuff like Mass Effect 2, Fallout 4, and Skyrim RPGs because that's what the company putting the game out says they are.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm playing Bioshock: Infinite right now (on 1999 mode for my first proper playthrough) and it is WAY better than Bioshock 1/2.

1999 mode is an unlockable, it's not available on your first playthrough.

Wrong.

1999 Mode is an unlockable mode of gameplay that is more difficult than the "Hard" setting. It can be unlocked by either beating BioShock Infinite for the first time or on consoles by entering the Konami Code (up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B [cancel], A [confirm]) while in the game menu. The developers of BioShock warn players that the game will not "feel like BioShock" in this mode.

I dunno why it says 'on consoles' either, I played through the game on PC one time only and it was on 1999 mode.

Edit: ah apparently you have to edit a cfg

On PC:Open the XUserOptions.ini (...Documents\My Games\BioShock Infinite\XGame\Config) with an editor and change "DefaultbHasInput1999Code=0" in line 79 to "...=1" and "bHasInput1999Code=False" in line 117 to "=True".

 

[Ash]

1999 mode is an unlockable, it's not available on your first playthrough.

False.

there is an arrow, you just need to press a button for it to show up. Although it is a pointless feature since the game is almost an on-rails shooter.

False. It is disabled in 1999 mode.

that's a pretty retarded feature story-wise (did Elizabeth charge you for reviving? wtf),

lol who cares? gameplay is more important than story in a video game?

and barely changes anything since there is a ton of money lying around.

False. Less money in 1999 mode + it changes a lot because taking your money away is taking away your ability to upgrade weapons, powers and purchase resources.

Plus the game still not hard even on 1999 mode

Yeah, you sure sound like you speak from experience when everything you've said up to this point has been false.

No, the game is not particularly hard, however it just barely meets any reasonable acceptable standard in 1999 mode, whereas BS1 is literally a mindless power trip with no skill or strategy required.

and the penalty for death just is being revived at a checkpoint.

Yes? that is indeed a penalty. Unlike BS1/2 which has NONE.

So for you "hacking, photography and crafting" is a time wasting busywork, while a literal call of duty clone with two weapons limit and like two enemy types is "ok"?

Nope. It's in the implementation. I love hacking in SS2 or [insert RPG]. In Bioshock it gets tedious real fast, and more importantly there's no point to it because you do not need the rewards (which are typically money/health/eve) because of the aforementioned mindlessness.

The developers of BioShock warn players that the game will not "feel like BioShock" in this mode.

Indeed, it actually "feels" (read: plays) like an actual game. even if it's just an OK one.

 

[Wunderbar]

1999 mode is an unlockable, it's not available on your first playthrough.

False

well it says that you need to enter konami code or edit config file. I played through the game twice (first on normal then on 1999 mode).

there is an arrow, you just need to press a button for it to show up. Although it is a pointless feature since the game is almost an on-rails shooter

False. It is disabled in 1999 mode.

oh ok. I forgot about that because i've never ever used it since the game is so linear.

that's a pretty retarded feature story-wise (did Elizabeth charge you for reviving? wtf),

lol who cares? gameplay is more important than story in a video game?

well Infinite is a storyfag game, so.

and barely changes anything since there is a ton of money lying around.

False. Less money in 1999 mode + it changes a lot because taking your money away is taking away your ability to upgrade weapons, powers and purchase resources.

i had no problems with money on 1999 mode. Are you using charm ability on vending machines?

Plus the game still not hard even on 1999 mode

No, the game is not hard, at all, however it just barely meets any reasonable acceptable standard, whereas BS1 is literally a mindless power trip with no skill or strategy required.

BS1 - yeah, BS2 - no.

and the penalty for death just is being revived at a checkpoint.

Yes? Just like many games in 1999.

it makes the money penalty pointless, because you can just revert back to a checkpoint after death and suffer no penalties.

So for you "hacking, photography and crafting" is a time wasting busywork, while a literal call of duty clone with two weapons limit and like two enemy types is "ok"?

Nope. It's in the implementation. I love hacking in SS2 or [insert RPG]. In Bioshock it gets tedious real fast, and more importantly there's no point to it because you do not need the rewards (which are typically money/health/eve) because of said mindlessness.

i didn't find it tedious in BS2 where the minigame is not only less time-consuming, but also leaves player vulnerable.

The developers of BioShock warn players that the game will not "feel like BioShock" in this mode.

Indeed, it actually "feels" (read: plays) like an actual game.

"the game will not feel like BioShock" disclaimer implied that Infinite on regular difficulties would feel like Bioshock, but it doesn't.
1999 mode just makes enemies spongier, increases their damage, slightly reduces resources (there's still a ton of them), and adds a death penalty that can be easily avoided because 1999 doesn't remove checkpoints.

 

[Ash]

it makes the money penalty pointless, because you can just revert back to a checkpoint after death and suffer no penalties.

Nope. Reverting to checkpoint is a loss of progress. One of the most feared penalties of all. Checkpoints are placed in approximate 10 min intervals too, which is surprisingly punishing (lol) by modern standards.

BS1 - yeah, BS2 - no.

Bro they have the almost exact same game rules. I was starting to warm to you as a poster of late, maybe he's not that much of a clueless casual I thought, and you had to go ruin it.

"the game will not feel like BioShock" disclaimer implied that Infinite on regular difficulties would feel like Bioshock, but it doesn't.

I can sense the butthurt and I love it.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah some of the checkpoints were brutal

 

[Ash]

1. Initially you could not turn it off. Was introduced in a patch.
2. Game is designed around them. turning it off just results in heavy save/load scumming, which is lame decline shit.
3. Just because a dev includes option to disable, doesn't make it right in any case - be it objective markers, vita chambers, infinite ammo...At best I accept is hiding that shit away like cheats old school style, and I'm also more forgiving of games that have such lame options but have them disabled by default. Here's the thing, most gamers don't have a single damn clue why the yellow arrow is bad. Many gamers I know don't even check the options menu at all! Children, dad or bro types that just play from time time, probably all women...these people may even turn these features on if disabled by default, hey it's a helping hand and if the option is there it must be ok? Even people that do play games with some degree of dedication often don't know what they want. Sometimes even I don't know what I want: make snap judgements based on what I hear online or see in a preview, and get concerned that I will not enjoy that game when in practice it could turn out I enjoy it very much. We all do this.
Todays gamers have been coddled by decline era games like Bioshock, now the standards have shifted and gameplay tenets such as exploration/orienteering have been made extinct. Something like Morrowind where you have to truly explore and there is no option to the contrary is simply not viable today. Killed by sellouts.

I don't know why turning them off would cause save scumming? Anyway, I played both with them off from day one and never had one issue caused by that. Same for the modern Deus Ex and Dishonored games (though there was one hidden safe code in Dishonored's DLCs that was extremely hard to find without a marker). As for exploration elements, it is certainly no Morrowind, but it does have a ton of optional upgrades, recordings and other items you will only find by exploring. There are lots of little shops and other rooms that you would never go into at all if you just followed the marker. Again I am not pretending the game is System Shock 2, it is not, but it's not the linear hallway people sometimes act like it is.

As for challenge, I played it a year or so ago on hard with no vita chambers and it was a relatively good challenge, in the sense you need to craft better ammo, find the upgrades, etc. to play it. No game of this type is ever REALLY a challenge if you take your time and hunt for resources and save often, and that includes all the classics.

Anyway, I am not trying to make anyone realize Bioshock is some amazing game. I think it's an okay game. I think people who act like it's a huge piece of dogshit usually do so because they expected System Shock 3, and it absolutely is not that. Usually when we have these debates people admit that and defend their position because of what Levine promised or it having Shock in the name. I just don't care about that stuff much, I try and take games for what they are. Maybe that sounds like I'm trying to be smug, but I'm not. Just a personality thing I guess, I can detach expectation from experience more than most. Play Bioshock as a pure FPS with some exploration/upgrade flavor on top and it's an enjoyable experience.

If everything is turned off, it's all "not that bad" as the thread states, yes, yet the game should be judged to its intended state and it is massive decline nonetheless.

I'll tell you this: I'll never replay it. I'll replay some bargain bin console game from 1995 I developed a fondness for despite its flaws and low budget, I'll replay Age of Empires at some point despite not being huge on RTS, maybe even some flash game despite not having touched any in like 15 years, MAYBE I'll even replay Invisible War some day, but Bioshock no. It not only is plainly an inferior version of System shock 2, it is barely a game. Its rules are not harmonious (unless you turn features off lol).

 

[Wunderbar]

BS1 - yeah, BS2 - no.

Bro they have the almost exact same game rules

no they don't. BS2 is better in terms of level design and has a slightly better enemy variety (brutes) and balancing, plus the little sister escort missions require you to use all of your tools like mine rivets/trap spears/cyclone trap.

I was starting to warm to you as a poster of late, maybe he's not that much of a clueless casual I thought, and you had to go ruin it.

oh no, what should i do now, ash doesnt like me anymore!
meh.

"the game will not feel like BioShock" disclaimer implied that Infinite on regular difficulties would feel like Bioshock, but it doesn't.

I can sense the butthurt and I love it.

really? are you going to pull JDR13 and start accusing people of butthurt?
All i said was that the disclaimer doesnt mean anything since it was implying that "normal difficulty Infinite would feel like original bioshock while 1999 mode wouldn't".

 

[Ash]

BS1 - yeah, BS2 - no.

Bro they have the almost exact same game rules

no they don't. BS2 is better in terms of level design and has a slightly better enemy variety (brutes) and balancing, plus the little sister escort missions require you to use all of your tools like mine rivets/trap spears/cyclone trap.

I was starting to warm to you as a poster of late, maybe he's not that much of a clueless casual I thought, and you had to go ruin it.

oh no, what should i do now, ash doesnt like me anymore!
meh.

"the game will not feel like BioShock" disclaimer implied that Infinite on regular difficulties would feel like Bioshock, but it doesn't.

I can sense the butthurt and I love it.

really? are you going to pull JDR13 and start accusing people of butthurt?
All i said was that the disclaimer doesnt mean anything since it was implying that "normal difficulty Infinite would feel like original bioshock while 1999 mode wouldn't".

It's ok. I didn't mean to upset you, well I kind of did but it's not really my true desire. You're alright, bad taste aside
One of the better among the bad taste crowd, I lump you in with Roguey and DalekFlay.