Blizzard announced "Classic" World of Warcraft

[Delterius]

From what I remember the cutscenes after the culling of stratholme show that not everyone in the city was killed. There are peasants around to burn the bodies when Jaina and Medivh have their convo. So odds are Arthas' contingent probably killed a lot of uninfected people instead of saving them.

Really if you think about it, without that sort of despair associated with the Culling (killing everyone before they turn into ghouls, even if some of them aren't going to), then Jaina and Uther just come across as dumb or weak-willed. Which Uther shouldn't be. Sure, the map simplifies things and make it so every peasant you run across is infected. But the overall plotline and the Culling dungeon in WoW paint a better, more compelling story.

I say that especially when you think Arthas is in the right. He's willing to go farther than just terrorizing the nearly dead, but to kill the few that might have survived otherwise together with them. It's all part of his fall from grace. The conflict between being a romanticized WoW Paladin, and being a feudal lord who has to make the hard decisions. Stratholme should be a hard decision. One where the prince of Lordaeron went full Albigensian Crusade on his subjects.

 

[Delterius]

Man it was nostalgia bait but I really liked this dungeon

 

[ItsChon]

I say that especially when you think Arthas is in the right. He's willing to go farther than just terrorizing the nearly dead, but to kill the few that might have survived otherwise together with them. It's all part of his fall from grace. The conflict between being a romanticized WoW Paladin, and being a feudal lord who has to make the hard decisions. Stratholme should be a hard decision. One where the prince of Lordaeron went full Albigensian Crusade on his subjects.

I mean, when the stakes are so high, I'd kill everyone too even if there is a chance they're unaffected, it just has to be done. That being said, the argument that Arthas came to that solution extremely quickly is a fair one.

 

[Delterius]

I say that especially when you think Arthas is in the right. He's willing to go farther than just terrorizing the nearly dead, but to kill the few that might have survived otherwise together with them. It's all part of his fall from grace. The conflict between being a romanticized WoW Paladin, and being a feudal lord who has to make the hard decisions. Stratholme should be a hard decision. One where the prince of Lordaeron went full Albigensian Crusade on his subjects.

I mean, when the stakes are so high, I'd kill everyone too even if there is a chance they're unaffected, it just has to be done. That being said, the argument that Arthas came to that solution extremely quickly is a fair one.

I don't disagree either. Even hindsight vindicates Arthas. Becoming undead is traumatizing, being undead is torture, curing the undead plague with arcane magic is impossible, and people were turning into undead imminently rather than in a couple of days. They really were that late. But this being pre Scarlet Crusade, a Proper Paladin has to be a romantic warrior who saves the weak anyways, somehow. Arthas instead was acting as a callous King. Doing what was necessary.

What I say is that the story should have moral stakes on both sides, and the decision shouldn't have been easy. I find enough clues within WC3 itself to imagine a lordaeron footman killing a peasant's family even though only the dad had eaten from the new grain stock. It adds to the story. Whereas if we take the simpler perspective we are even cheapening not only Uther's character but Arthas' decision as well.

 

[janior]

I started having my doubts about arthas after this cinematic tbqh

even burning the boats was the right move worthy of a king

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Arthas' flaw is that he ignored the warnings of his trusted friends. First he ignored his childhood friend and his mentor. Then he ignored his uncle Muradin, who warned him about the sword being cursed. Then he usurps his father, a good and wise man who formed the Alliance and defeated the Horde and brought peace to the continent. Who does he listen to? The voice of a sword he was warned about, an evil wizard, and a spider he just met. You have to wonder why he was not well known for foolishness before the game began.

 

[ItsChon]

Arthas' flaw is that he ignored the warnings of his trusted friends. First he ignored his childhood friend and his mentor. Then he ignored his uncle Muradin, who warned him about the sword being cursed. Then he usurps his father, a good and wise man who formed the Alliance and defeated the Horde and brought peace to the continent. Who does he listen to? The voice of a sword he was warned about, an evil wizard, and a spider he just met. You have to wonder why he was not well known for foolishness before the game began.

I haven't played any of the games ITT, but I'm fairly certain that the voice in the sword had some sort of a hypnotic effect on him through magic or curses or whatever which led to his corruption. Doubt he just listened to a sword that told him to kill his dad for no fucking reason.

 

[Arbiter]

I haven't played any of the games ITT, but I'm fairly certain that the voice in the sword had some sort of a hypnotic effect on him through magic or curses or whatever which led to his corruption. Doubt he just listened to a sword that told him to kill his dad for no fucking reason.

No, the sword was just the final step in his descent into madness, after culling of Stratholme, burning his ships and betraying the mercenaries that helped him to do so.

 

[Delterius]

Arthas' flaw is that he ignored the warnings of his trusted friends. First he ignored his childhood friend and his mentor. Then he ignored his uncle Muradin, who warned him about the sword being cursed. Then he usurps his father, a good and wise man who formed the Alliance and defeated the Horde and brought peace to the continent. Who does he listen to? The voice of a sword he was warned about, an evil wizard, and a spider he just met. You have to wonder why he was not well known for foolishness before the game began.

I think Arthas' fatal flaw is that he is primarily ego driven. He was raised to be the perfect prince, not only for his personal qualities but also as a Paladin. And he doesn't take failure well. More importantly, we are slowly weaned into that flaw with each chapter of the main campaign.

When Arthas fights the orcish cultists he doesn't steel himself for the horrors he's about to witness, in stark contrast with Uther who stays calm throught the ordeal. That's not bad in itself. Arthas is young, Uther is old, experienced, and a war veteran. So it's no surprise that Arthas is more emotional, it just seems that he's got a lot to grow as a Paladin.

Arthas starts to show his hand in the undead siege. By that point he'd 'failed' to save the people of Andorhal (though, really it wasn't his fault at all), so when Uther comes in and compliments his defence, Arthas takes that personally as if it was an accusation. You should have done better, you should have been better.

Then two things happen in Stratholme. Arthas takes a drastic measure and puts the city to the sword. We'll never know how many people had actually eaten from the new grain stocks, but we know it hadn't been everyone. The second thing is that Mal'ganis shows up and baits him. From that moment onwards it's not about protecting the people, it's about revenge. That is where Arthas begins to make a series of strategic blunders. He took the enemies' bait because he's emotionally compromised.

This all feeds back into the final cutscene. The sword's whispers are that Arthas 'no longer needs to bear the weight of the Crown'. He can finally live or un-live for himself, with no pretense at morality or responsibility.

Warcraft 3 was no shakespeare but I think it was a well told story with good fundamentals.

 

[janior]

anyway how do you guys feel about hardcore classic? I'm tempted to resub and try(prob not worth it but eh).

 

[Alienman]

Wonder if that grain tasted differently.

"Hey Johnny, does this grain taste a bit undead to you?"

 

[mediocrepoet]

Wonder if that grain tasted differently.

"Hey Johnny, does this grain taste a bit undead to you?"

God damn it, Jim-Billy-Bob! Did you piss on the wheat again!?

 

[FreeKaner]

Arthas' flaw is that he ignored the warnings of his trusted friends. First he ignored his childhood friend and his mentor. Then he ignored his uncle Muradin, who warned him about the sword being cursed. Then he usurps his father, a good and wise man who formed the Alliance and defeated the Horde and brought peace to the continent. Who does he listen to? The voice of a sword he was warned about, an evil wizard, and a spider he just met. You have to wonder why he was not well known for foolishness before the game began.

I think Arthas' fatal flaw is that he is primarily ego driven. He was raised to be the perfect prince, not only for his personal qualities but also as a Paladin. And he doesn't take failure well. More importantly, we are slowly weaned into that flaw with each chapter of the main campaign.

When Arthas fights the orcish cultists he doesn't steel himself for the horrors he's about to witness, in stark contrast with Uther who stays calm throught the ordeal. That's not bad in itself. Arthas is young, Uther is old, experienced, and a war veteran. So it's no surprise that Arthas is more emotional, it just seems that he's got a lot to grow as a Paladin.

Arthas starts to show his hand in the undead siege. By that point he'd 'failed' to save the people of Andorhal (though, really it wasn't his fault at all), so when Uther comes in and compliments his defence, Arthas takes that personally as if it was an accusation. You should have done better, you should have been better.

Then two things happen in Stratholme. Arthas takes a drastic measure and puts the city to the sword. We'll never know how many people had actually eaten from the new grain stocks, but we know it hadn't been everyone. The second thing is that Mal'ganis shows up and baits him. From that moment onwards it's not about protecting the people, it's about revenge. That is where Arthas begins to make a series of strategic blunders. He took the enemies' bait because he's emotionally compromised.

This all feeds back into the final cutscene. The sword's whispers are that Arthas 'no longer needs to bear the weight of the Crown'. He can finally live or un-live for himself, with no pretense at morality or responsibility.

Warcraft 3 was no shakespeare but I think it was a well told story with good fundamentals.

Warcraft 3 is primarily a story about fall, and that makes for compelling character narratives because it inherently requires character arcs and character development. Blizzard forced their own hand, because they had to connect the campaign to showcase both humans and undead, which in turn made them have to create a story of how a paladin turns into its undead equivalent as a death knight. They set themselves up for success with that sort of premise.

 

[Angthoron]

Arthas' flaw is that he ignored the warnings of his trusted friends. First he ignored his childhood friend and his mentor. Then he ignored his uncle Muradin, who warned him about the sword being cursed. Then he usurps his father, a good and wise man who formed the Alliance and defeated the Horde and brought peace to the continent. Who does he listen to? The voice of a sword he was warned about, an evil wizard, and a spider he just met. You have to wonder why he was not well known for foolishness before the game began.

I've legit met people in real life that acted this way. Well, not quite "Listened to an inanimate object" levels of the same way (probably), but close enough - taking someone's word as gospel and then ignoring close people that try to object and say that things are actually not quite as black and white, or the information is outdated, or that perhaps that dreadlord isn't the best candidate for a date night.

 

[Absinthe]

anyway how do you guys feel about hardcore classic? I'm tempted to resub and try(prob not worth it but eh).

I don't think it changes much. WoW is not exactly a difficult game, and it sounds like a less fun time since it incentivizes you to avoid doing dungeons since it only takes 1 retarded party to obliterate your character, and considering it's WoW retarded parties are a given. I guess if you have Vanish, Feign Death, or invisibility potions you might be able to hearthstone out of a wipe.

 

[pickmeister]

Might be worth it rolling a healer and open salt mines by not doing your job properly. Could be fun.

 

[SerratedBiz]

anyway how do you guys feel about hardcore classic? I'm tempted to resub and try(prob not worth it but eh).

I don't think it changes much. WoW is not exactly a difficult game, and it sounds like a less fun time since it incentivizes you to avoid doing dungeons since it only takes 1 retarded party to obliterate your character, and considering it's WoW retarded parties are a given. I guess if you have Vanish, Feign Death, or invisibility potions you might be able to hearthstone out of a wipe.

HC rules state that you can only do a dungeon once per character and only within a certain level range.

And not dying is not as easy as it sounds.

 

[Absinthe]

And even then the dungeon is a major danger to your character if you have shitty teammates. "Whoops I pulled adds!" "Whoops I pulled aggro as healer!" "Whoops I don't quite understand how to build threat or use tanking abilities!" <- time to fucking delete your character. It only takes one.

And not dying just incentivizes stacking stamina, playing it safe, and doing content while overleveled for it. Riveting stuff.

 

[KazikluBey]

Man it was nostalgia bait but I really liked this dungeon [Culling of Stratholme]

Not that bad the first time I guess, but I always just leave if it comes up in an rdf hc.

And even then the dungeon is a major danger to your character if you have shitty teammates. "Whoops I pulled adds!" "Whoops I pulled aggro as healer!" "Whoops I don't quite understand how to build threat or use tanking abilities!" <- time to fucking delete your character. It only takes one.

And not dying just incentivizes stacking stamina, playing it safe, and doing content while overleveled for it. Riveting stuff.

Pug dungeons the old fashioned way from players who also use the hardcore addon, I guess. It's at least a way of trying to make the journey to max level matter.

Anyway, don't pay for classic, just use a private server. For WotLK at least, the mechanics are more blizzlike than the Blizzard servers.

 

[Absinthe]

Might be worth it rolling a healer and open salt mines by not doing your job properly. Could be fun.

Just roll a tank and forget to properly build threat on secondary targets when you're busy tanking like 3-4 mobs. It's a super common fuck-up and will wipe the party properly when the healer invariably aggroes.

 

[pickmeister]

I bet the retarded mage aoe meta will still be the most popular way to clear dungeons.

 

[janior]

dying to ninja pull in a dungeon on a hc character is still better than playing normal version with bots/gdkp/rmt

 

[Absinthe]

I bet the retarded mage aoe meta will still be the most popular way to clear dungeons.

IIRC Season of Mastery servers nerfed that shit hard.

 

[SerratedBiz]

And even then the dungeon is a major danger to your character if you have shitty teammates. "Whoops I pulled adds!" "Whoops I pulled aggro as healer!" "Whoops I don't quite understand how to build threat or use tanking abilities!" <- time to fucking delete your character. It only takes one.

And not dying just incentivizes stacking stamina, playing it safe, and doing content while overleveled for it. Riveting stuff.

Dude if you haven't played it then just say so, no need to talk out of your ass and show it.

 

[Absinthe]

And even then the dungeon is a major danger to your character if you have shitty teammates. "Whoops I pulled adds!" "Whoops I pulled aggro as healer!" "Whoops I don't quite understand how to build threat or use tanking abilities!" <- time to fucking delete your character. It only takes one.

And not dying just incentivizes stacking stamina, playing it safe, and doing content while overleveled for it. Riveting stuff.

Dude if you haven't played it then just say so, no need to talk out of your ass and show it.

The fuck are you on about, son? Level ranges only apply to dungeons. You can be overleveled for the rest no problem. Yes, you only do dungeons with other hardcore players. Yes, they're expected to be better than your suicidal casual shitters, but in reality there are still people who fuck shit up in HC dungeons. Even if the overwhelming majority are not like that, it only takes one shitter to wipe your character in a HC dungeon if you do not have wipe escape measures. Considering how hardcore is turning into flavor-of-the-month shit, you can expect a rise in shitters too.