From Software Bloodborne. Discuss or die!

[iqzulk]

I am not all that (or rather "not at all") knowledgeable about first-person Japanese games, I have next to none experience with the original version of Baroque (although, DAT SOUNDTRACK... HNNG) due to the language barrier, and I don't have a faintest clue about the history of Rogue-likes in Japan, but doesn't it (the original Baroque, that is) bear at least as much (if not more) semblance to the stuff like "Iron Angel of the Apocalypse" and ""Robotica" (both of which are kinda interesting as the examples of Japanese attempts at the FPS genre, even if they are actually pretty shitty games)? And isn't the very first King's Field game (by the way, due to a very strange coincidence, I've played its "Sword of Moonlight" remake just today for a couple of hours - my only other experience with the series had only been via watching the entire playthrough of the original version of that very first game a couple of years ago) just a very slow, extremely simplified (in terms of mechanical complexity, not challenge) and action-y version of Ultima Underworld with TEH MAJESTIC FULL3D GRAPHICS and some pretty uninspired (and way too spacey) level-design anyway?

 

[Machocruz]

Yeah, look at all the Armored Core in there.

 

[Gentle Player]

[Isn't King's Field] just a very slow, extremely simplified (in terms of mechanical complexity, not challenge) and action-y version of Ultima Underworld with TEH MAJESTIC FULL3D GRAPHICS and some pretty uninspired (and way too spacey) level-design anyway?

They do play like a simplified UU, but the level design is not at all uninspired. All that the best Souls levels are praised for - verticality, cohesive connectability, unlocking of shortcuts, numerous secrets - is present even more so in KF. Particularly in KF IV, whose level design blows even the very best of Souls out of the water and also manages to have a much more interesting and intricate transport system than just warping with bonfires/nexus.

KF1 (Japanese) is not the best gauge of later KF level design as it consists of five flat (or mostly flat) dungeon floors connected via teleporters. It's probably about a quarter of the size of later games and lacks the fully connected open worlds of KF2 and onwards.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2014/08/27/want-know-lots-bloodborne

It all comes back to the idea of peril: of not knowing what’s coming, but knowing that it will be mortally dangerous. I’m more confident now that Bloodborne will not be a Demon’s Souls re-run (though that would have been no bad thing), but a different vehicle for FROM’s and Miyazaki’s unique approach to terror.

 

[Cool name]

I have next to none experience with the original version of Baroque (although, DAT SOUNDTRACK... HNNG) due to the language barrier

You can always try the remake. It loses some of the atmosphere and it doesn't 'feel' as good, but it is more playable and it is translated. The original Baroque is obtuse even if you can read Japanese, and extremely clunky as well.

but doesn't it (the original Baroque, that is) bear at least as much (if not more) semblance to the stuff like "Iron Angel of the Apocalypse" and ""Robotica" (both of which are kinda interesting as the examples of Japanese attempts at the FPS genre, even if they are actually pretty shitty games)?

I took King's Field as an important influence for Baroque simply because of how popular King's Field and King's Field II were in Japan until III almost killed the series. They were HUGE. Well... Maybe not HUGE, but they were pretty big. And Baroque came a few years after the high point in their popularity. By which I don't mean you are wrong. As far as I am concerned we should consider the 'slow paced, ridiculously atmospheric, dungeon crawly, clunky as hell, japanese game thingie' its own subgenre.

That aside, you... You know of such games?

Mad respect, bro.

And isn't the very first King's Field game just a very slow, extremely simplified (in terms of mechanical complexity, not challenge) and action-y version of Ultima Underworld with TEH MAJESTIC FULL3D GRAPHICS and some pretty uninspired (and way too spacey) level-design anyway?

Maybe.

If the similarities are enough for you to consider both the same, that's fine.

As in, I am an Ultima Underworld fangirl and I am a King's Field fangirl, and I think neither of them has particularly complex mechanics. That's why I like them.

Ultima Underworld has far more interesting thingies to do outside of combat. King's Field has much more involving and fluid combat.

The spacey design of the King's Field games is a feature. Combat is dynamic. You are constantly circling your enemies, moving in and out of range, dodging ranged attacks, flowing through groups so that you don't get cornered, etc. If you are in combat and you are not moving, you are already dead.

Ultima Underworld has much better dungeon design than the original King's Field. King's Field II and King's Field IV I believe have better dungeon design than both Ultima Underworld and Ultima Underworld II, with huge, complex, continuous dungeons which turn and twist on themselves.

The Underworld games are far more interactive than the King's Field games.

So to me they are two entirely different thingies. The Ultima Underworld games are more of a... How are they called? Immersive sims or some such? The King's Field games are more like balls to the wall dungeon crawlers who want to murder you in your sleep.

They are both excellent at what they do.

(by the way, due to a very strange coincidence, I've played its "Sword of Moonlight" remake just today for a couple of hours - my only other experience with the series had only been via watching the entire playthrough of the original version of that very first game a couple of years ago)

You should fix this. Like, right now.

Play King's Field II, King's Field IV, and Shadow Tower Abyss at the very least. King's Field III and Eternal Ring I didn't like too much, so you can skip those. Shadow Tower, without the Abyss, is... Weird. It drips atmosphere, but it has its share of problems. King's Field, the original, is mostly a prototype. Play it if you enjoy the series, to see where it all began or if you can't get enough of it.

And if the translation is ever finished, play Hungry Ghosts as well. It is not by FROM but the influences are obvious, and it is one of the most atmospheric, immersive, and weird games ever made.

 

[iqzulk]

You can always try the remake.

I am sorry, but I won't do such a thing (besides, I've already seen a fair bit of the remake on YT). The original version of the Baroque is, like, one of THE main things I've not yet played - and I WILL look into the various ways_to_solve_its_"problem" (one way or the other) extensively some time into the future.

The spacey design of the King's Field games is a feature. Combat is dynamic. You are constantly circling your enemies, moving in and out of range, dodging ranged attacks, flowing through groups so that you don't get cornered, etc. If you are in combat and you are not moving, you are already dead.

I dunno, I am still not sure about that. The pace just seems to be somewhat too slow for that amount of space. I mean, take Battlespire for example. Its combat requires all the things you've described, but at the same time the speed of that combat is three to four times higher as compared to what I've seen of King's Fields. And while its levels (the best Bethesda ever did, I think) are by no means the most tight ever modelled, they do not get on your nerves nearly as much because of just how rapid the movement is. Also what about the episodes when you are not in combat, or even backtracking (which, I gather, you do in King's Fields quite a lot, not that there is anything wrong with backtracking in itself)? Didn't the slow speed combined with the spaciousness ever get on your nerves?

So to me they are two entirely different thingies. The Ultima Underworld games are more of a... How are they called? Immersive sims or some such? The King's Field games are more like balls to the wall dungeon crawlers who want to murder you in your sleep.

OK, thank you for the clarification.

You should fix this. Like, right now.

Play King's Field II, King's Field IV, and Shadow Tower Abyss at the very least.

I would, but frankly there is a major problem (well, for the latter two, at least): my current... ahem... "rig" just isn't up to the task of emulating the KFIV. As in, "no way in hell I will ever play an already slow game at 1/2 to 2/3 of its actual speed" (although I did manage to successfully complete "Summoner 2" - which I absolutely adored - on the same "rig"). And from the fact that it isn't up to the task of emulating KFIV, I also gather that it just isn't up to the task of emulating "Shadow Tower Abyss" and "Echo Night: Beyond" as well. I do intend to try to solve this problem (and also the performance problems of some heavy DOS games in DosBoX, such as "Pyl", and the performance problem with the Mac version of "Dark Forces" in Sheepshaver emulator) by attempting to compile PCSX2 (DosBoX/Sheepshaver respectively) from sources using (yohoho-ed) Intel Compiler with all sorts of insane performance optimizations - but, again, I haven't yet gotten to it - and hell knows when I'll actually do. Also, I do not play a lot of games lately due to all the things movie-concerned. As for KFII, I will play it sooner or later (despite my aversion to wobbly PSX 3D graphics - although I do not remember whether KFI&II specifically were wobbly or not), that I can promise you. I would even play it right now if I managed to find some PSX emulator that would allow overclocking of the emulated console hardware (thus hopefully wringing more_and_more "honest" frames per second from the game - if there isn't hard fps limit hardcoded - thus improving the feel, the responsiveness of controls, etc.) just to test a new toy, but apparently (and very strangely) there aren't any such PSX emulators out there at all.

King's Field III and Eternal Ring I didn't like too much, so you can skip those. Shadow Tower, without the Abyss, is... Weird. It drips atmosphere, but it has its share of problems. King's Field, the original, is mostly a prototype. Play it if you enjoy the series, to see where it all began or if you can't get enough of it. And if the translation is ever finished, play Hungry Ghosts as well. It is not by FROM but the influences are obvious, and it is one of the most atmospheric, immersive, and weird games ever made.

Thank you for all the trivia. On my part, can I ask, whether you've played Bungie's "Pathways into Darkness"? From what you've told about involvement and fluidity of combat in KF, I think you might have liked it very much, despite it being an early FPS game (although from the standpoint of combat alone I definitely consider the game to be the best pre-Doom first-person shooter out there, and an extremely strong - and very unfairly forgotten - contender to Doom itself). The thing is, all the stuff you said about the differences between KF and UUW, can also be said while comparing PiD and UUW (although the more accurate comparison for PiD might be id Software's "Catacomb 3D", which preceded UUW, and which is a very charming little first-person free-movement dungeon crawling game I wholeheartedly recommend despite its simplicity and rough visuals), although PiD is interesting as an example of game where you are required to manoeuvre as mad non-stop while having virtually no space to manoeuvre at all. The only other game I know of, that attempted to build its level-design and combat so that your Every Step Would Count, was Doom 3 - and even that game was less tight (and much less varied, as opposed to PiD which shifted its formula a little with almost every single level), than PiD. Also, yes, PiD IS a dungeon crawler at the same time (even if somewhat simplified) - and it definitely DOES want to bloody murder you in your sleep. The level design is meh though (although it does serve the combat very well), not to mention that the levels are flat (as in 'Wolf3D kind of flat"). The proper way to play it would be to emulate the original version for System7 via Mac emulator called "Basilisk II", although there was a recent port of this game to modern Macs.
Also, if you haven't played "Battlespire", I wholeheartedly recommend that game as well, despite it being a bitch to get working properly and its non-ironed-out bugs.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Brofisted iqzulk for recommending Battlespire. It's really an underappreciated dungeon crawler masterpiece.

However, I disagree about KF being too slow or simplified. In fact, the combat is much better than in UW, and exploration is different but also very good. You do need to get in the rhythm though - which is a masterpiece in itself, imho. So far, From Software is the only company that's been making real-time dungeon crawler that could rival UW. We'll see if that changes with that UW revival announced recently.

Also, brofisted Black Cat because she's my alt (or is it vice versa?) and always says things I wish I could say myself.

Also also, to add to what BC/Agassi said, the original Shadow Tower is great. It's just very hardcore, kinda like the early Wizardry games - great dungeon design, and gameplay which tries to do its best to fuck up the player.

Also also also

As in, I am an Ultima Underworld fangirl and I am a King's Field fangirl, and I think neither of them has particularly complex mechanics. That's why I like them.

Ultima Underworld has far more interesting thingies to do outside of combat. King's Field has much more involving and fluid combat.

The spacey design of the King's Field games is a feature. Combat is dynamic. You are constantly circling your enemies, moving in and out of range, dodging ranged attacks, flowing through groups so that you don't get cornered, etc. If you are in combat and you are not moving, you are already dead.

Ultima Underworld has much better dungeon design than the original King's Field. King's Field II and King's Field IV I believe have better dungeon design than both Ultima Underworld and Ultima Underworld II, with huge, complex, continuous dungeons which turn and twist on themselves.

The Underworld games are far more interactive than the King's Field games.

QFT

 

[Cool name]

Also what about the episodes when you are not in combat, or even backtracking (which, I gather, you do in King's Fields quite a lot, not that there is anything wrong with backtracking in itself)? Didn't the slow speed combined with the spaciousness ever get on your nerves?

Not really. And ever since King's Field II you can sprint. It consumes your stamina, but that is of little importance when you are backtracking. It even has its uses in combat, if used sparingly.

I dunno, I am still not sure about that. The pace just seems to be somewhat too slow for that amount of space. I mean, take Battlespire for example. Its combat requires all the things you've described, but at the same time the speed of that combat is three to four times higher as compared to what I've seen of King's Fields. And while its levels (the best Bethesda ever did, I think) are by no means the most tight ever modelled, they do not get on your nerves nearly as much because of just how rapid the movement is.

Maybe the problem is that you see the game as an actiony Ultima Underworld. You also mention Battlespyre. And still, combat in Battlespire and King's Field has little in common. In Battlespire you can take quite a few hits. In Battlespire both your attacks and the enemy's are much faster. The enemies run around like squirrels on crack. Strikes, from what I remember at least, do not stagger enemies.

In King's Field, you move and turn slowly, so you can't merely get out of the way if you make a mistake. Both you and the enemies attack slowly, so the emphasis is on waiting for openings in the enemy's attacks, baiting them into attacking, and timing your own attack so that you stagger them as they try to strike. Certain enemies, such as the infamous, PTSD inducing, skeletons, can kill you in two strikes even after you have leveled quite a bit and obtained some equipment.

By which I mean, the King's Field lineage isn't actiony in the usual sense. They can throw you into a big room with melee enemies coming at you from different directions while archers shoot at you from raised plataforms, and still, the emphasis will not move to your reflexes and fast reactions. Instead, it moves to you needing to keep awareness of all those different factors while you circle, and bait, and strike. And they can throw you into a big room with two or three skeletons, and once you get over the panic attack and focus, you actually have a fair chance to kill them all without being hurt. And still, the moment you grew confident or relaxed, they slaughter you like you are not even worth the effort.

The games give you the time to analyze the situation, decide a course of action, and then execute it. When it punishes you, it punishes because the course of action was erroneous or because you grew too careless, not because you were too slow or because you where overwhelmed by trying to keep track of everything which is going on around you.

So I am not trying to dismiss your concerns, but... Play King's Field II as-is before making a definite statement on the pace of the games. As in, give the pacing a fair chance. I do not know if the pace will work for you or not, but it does work for a lot of people. By which I don't mean we endure it because the game is so good, but genuinely enjoy it.

Hell, now I feel like starting Dark Souls using a base END, base VIT, heavy armor wearing Chosen Undead just because of this discussion.

I'll name her Queen BunYa.

Also, if you haven't played "Battlespire", I wholeheartedly recommend that game as well, despite it being a bitch to get working properly and its non-ironed-out bugs.

I did play it, but then put it aside for when I had the time and the inclination to actually pay attention to the character creation. So many numbers and thingies to pick at the very start of the game, when you have no bloody idea of what is ahead or what each thingie actually does. Ewww. Pisses me off. >.<

On my part, can I ask, whether you've played Bungie's "Pathways into Darkness"?

I had heard about the game, but I thought it was merely a FPS instead of a dungeon crawly thingie so I never paid any attention to it. I'll look into it. Thank you for mentioning it.

my current... ahem... "rig" just isn't up to the task of emulating the KFIV.

O.O

...?

Brofisted iqzulk for recommending Battlespire. It's really an underappreciated dungeon crawler masterpiece.

Aish... >.<

Alright, alright. I'll work on it.

You do need to get in the rhythm though - which is a masterpiece in itself, imho.

A wild Bee appears!

She uses 'summarize feline wall of text into a single concise line'!

It's super effective!

Also, brofisted Black Cat because she's my alt (or is it vice versa?) and always says things I wish I could say myself.

Maybe we are each other's alts. O.O

I actually used to have a Saint Croobelina in Dark Souls. Well, more like St.Croobelina because of the charlimit. Divine+10 Piercing Shield on off hand, Divine+10 Avelyn with lightning bolts and Ivory Talisman on main hand, ring of favor, 50 FAI and ATT, either brass set or palading set, and SunSis because Lightning Spear/Greater Lightning Spear/Sunlight Spear.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I actually used to have a Saint Croobelina in Dark Souls. Well, more like St.Croobelina because of the charlimit. Divine+10 Piercing Shield on off hand, Divine+10 Avelyn with lightning bolts and Ivory Talisman on main hand, ring of favor, 50 FAI and ATT, either brass set or palading set, and SunSis because Lightning Spear/Greater Lightning Spear/Sunlight Spear.

 

[StaticSpine]

A new trailer consisting of already shown pieces. And a new Jap release date - Feb 05

 

[Matalarata]

the infamous, PTSD inducing, skeletons

This. I remember each KF has something like an hidden room near the starting area... Inside you always have some great beginner's loot (like a weapon with good reach) and one (or two) of those hideous fuckers. Hate. So much hate.

...that triggered me...

 

[felipepepe]

Talking about King's Field, I'm having a darn hard time to contact any of the modders working on Sword of Moonlight... their forum requires you to reply 2 questions to register, and I can't find the answer even with google. Anyone got an account there?

 

[Grimlorn]

King's Field 3 was a lot better than 2. The atmosphere, the music made you feel hopeless and depressed. If you talked to the NPCs you got the saddest stories. You could see how hopeless everyone was. There was a lot of diversity travelling through the kingdom. Some NPCs would die. Game was good. I think King's Field 2 had a harder ending though.

Kind of wish From tried a new first person dungeon crawler instead of another 3rd person similar to Souls games, but we'll see how it does.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Dark Souls III: Depression Quest - Die in First-Person Edition

 

[Matalarata]

Kind of wish From tried a new first person dungeon crawler instead of another 3rd person similar to Souls games, but we'll see how it does.

Yes! I would love a slightly better paced combat, the circular dances of KF where actually awesome once you got the hang of it, but modern hardware could do so much for the formula!
Even modern control scheme actually helps the game a lot... I replayed KF 3 something like 2 yrs ago, using an emulator + JoytoKey I remapped the up/down freelook axys from the shoulder buttons to the analog stick (could be I did that with KF 2? don't remember now) so much better!

Still the best "simulation" of a lone dick trapped in a dungeon humanity has ever coded. You may love or hate KF but they nailed that onward or die feeling like no other ever did

 

[praetor]

FP melee combat has always been shit, and (maybe until that Warhorse project comes out) always will be. stop with this "another FP blahblah" and ruin a perfectly good combat system

 

[StaticSpine]

FP melee combat has always been shit, and (maybe until that Warhorse project comes out) always will be. stop with this "another FP blahblah" and ruin a perfectly good combat system

 

[Machocruz]

The melee combat in Shadow Tower Abyss is just fine. It's that game where FROM improved on what everyone did before, while understanding the limits of FP combat. It's simple but gives you enough options, combined with just the right amount of combat encounters, to keep the simplicity from becoming too repetitive. Note that soon after they stopped with FP melee combat. They knew they had taken it as far as it's going to go.

 

[Matalarata]

stop with this "another FP blahblah" and ruin a perfectly good combat system

Why? Does it affect your life? Are there any chance of a similar game being made today? Are you butthurt we love KF?

Because in this case I could go on and on rambling about it, just to bother you...

 

[Murk]

I think my new favorite thing about this is when people argue "it's not another souls game" (or the opposing view that it is one).

 

[DragoFireheart]

I think my new favorite thing about this is when people argue "it's not another souls game" (or the opposing view that it is one).

If they called this game Blood Souls or Gothic Souls I wouldn't know the difference.

 

[StaticSpine]

random ps4 owners now get these

 

[Abu Antar]

random ps4 owners now get these

Thank you, Sony.

 

[Kanedias]

Nippon stream showing the new demo at TGS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up_nX3DWruU#t=1594

Some concept art stuff:

Spoiler

 

[Kanedias]

Demo was the same area as the last one, but with those two new "classes" available. I think there were some minor changes to the location, but I am not sure. The Plague Doctor used powerstanced daggers and the other one used a Sword/Hammer weapon. You could swing the sword normally or insert it into the stone slab and use it as a great hammer.

Gameplay looked great, some of the AI was a bit stupid however. Also I'm not really sure but the balance of the game seemed different than in the previous demo, enemies seemed to deal more damage and the boss looked like it attacked less often but did significantly more damage as well.

We also got a new trailer! This is the only link I could find now.



I'm really enjoying the art direction.