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Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
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Messages
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SERPGIA
What will he do with his new found popularity? Kickstart some hardcore cRPG in vain of early Fallouts or Arcanum? Nooo. Dude hasn't made anything worthwhile in 20 years. He'll just keep filming his shizo episodes about 20 years old office grudges and keep Youtube gossiping and sucking corporate cock like a woman

Gay bottoms are the worst. He even has those small, slutty and gossipy wine aunt eyes. Ugh
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,617
Location
Denmark
What will he do with his new found popularity? Kickstart some hardcore cRPG in vain of early Fallouts or Arcanum? Nooo. Dude hasn't made anything worthwhile in 20 years. He'll just keep filming his shizo episodes about 20 years old office grudges and keep Youtube gossiping and sucking corporate cock like a woman

Gay bottoms are the worst. He even has those small, slutty and gossipy wine aunt eyes. Ugh
Dude could you shut the fuck up, and kill yourself slowly with a rusty razor?

You are boring me to tears.
 

I ASK INANE QUESTIONS

ITZ NEVER STOPS COOOMING
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
328
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It's good that John went back to his old stomping grounds, even better that he managed to do something there, but it doesn't get him off the list - that's like saying that Braben doesn't belong there because he's got his Raspberry Pi side gig.
What put him on the list in the first place? Diakatana? It was ambitious for it's time, a little bit too much so honestly. Then there was the poor marketting advertisement. Still no where near what the others have done.
Nope, just the fact that he used to do something, when he's had the momentum and the right people around him, and now he mostly does nothing, as per my previous posts.

The story of Daikatana is amusing, but entirely peripheral, much like Star Citizen, Braben's house of cards also known as Frontier Developments, and Peter's early dementia/compulsive lying episodes. (or whatever the fuck it was).

Ego trips, blunders, missteps, falls from grace - all fade in the rear view window. None of it matters. You are what you make.
 
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Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
2,334
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Obviously hiring good writers wouldn't expend the entire budget, but add good visuals, audio, bug testing, programming, mechanics all worked on by and with competent people senior people etc. with high salary, and everything starts to add up...

Yes, that is how budgets expand in games but as i wrote in the original message you replied to, the issues i had with TOW did not have to do with the visuals, audio, bugs or programming. It had to do with the writing and mechanics and even if they needed to hire new people for those roles, those roles would barely affect the budget over the course of the game's development because on a team of 100+ people, hiring one or two extra people would be a drop in the bucket - and TBH i'm not sure they'd actually need to hire new people in the first place (especially for mechanics).

Not sure why you think Obsidian in 2015-2019 was raking in tons of money, they weren't, especially before the microsoft merger... they made new vegas with a good budget yes, but they also had access to bethesda level of money ,which is infinite, so theres a difference.

TBH i'm not sure how you got the impression i claimed anything like that in the first place :-P.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
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Messages
15,749
The life of Tim is pure suffering.
MGSV-TPP-Wounded-Kaz.jpg
 

StrongBelwas

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 1, 2015
Messages
519
Wants to talk about how he is Naïve and optimistic. Some of you are probably not surprised, others may be going whaaaat. Always been like this, stayed this way despite some negative stuff and despite a lot of good things happening. Has been told this by many people, some meant it kindly, one person pulled him aside and told him he was being really naïve and had to be worried about some people. Other people have not meant it kindly, they just told him he was too naïve. Both groups say it as if he doesn't already know it, he knows it, he is a firm believer that people are a certain way, there is a personality/brainset you have around your 20s or teens this just gets in set in place and that is how you are. Cain knows people always happy and peppy, he knows people always down, he knows some neutrals.

Events may happen that change them, the peppy person could be down for a few weeks, downers happy, neutrals expressing some emotion, but within a week or two they are back to their own selves. Maybe go back to some of his older videos thinking about the fact he is still optimistic and naïve. The optimistic part is easy to see, look at the feature list of his games and know the team size and how long it took to make them, you would think he is far too optimistic about the game working out with that many features and that few people. Cain gets it, but feels they can always make it work. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't.

Naive part is a bit different, Cain has been told he is naive often. People keep doing things that should burn that naivety out. Not just employers, employees, co workers. Within weeks Cain is back to being as believing and naïve as he always is. Cain decided to do this video because he saw a comment about Cain being upset that people lie in interviews, Cain once had yelled at by a boss because he couldn't believe Cain didn't catch a lie someone they were interviewing made. Cain has never lied in an interview, alien to his way of thinking that someone could lie in an interview. The impression Cain got from some commentators is that everyone lies in interviews, blew Cain's mind. Doesn't think it's ok or fine to do all the time. Despite that, Cain has a record of believing what anyone tells him up and down and side the chain. Cain has had employers told him they had no money for raises this year, forgetting that Cain had access to some financial records in his position and could see they did, they just didn't want to give raises. Has been promised bonuses that never materialized, team organization that never came through.

Cain has talked about royalties and how they don't really exist. Part of that you don't hear about that is most people aren't allowed to talk about contracts. Cain goes back to Troika's three games, one of them he will not mention even if it probably isn't an NDA violation and the games are really old. One of them, they got in the contract a percentage of the gross, a huge deal, extraordinarily rare. Didn't know it at the time, but they would never get it again. Every time a copy of the game was sold, Troika would get a little percent. That company sent them two checks, then stopped. Cain rings them up to ask what is up, the company is saying they are getting returns. Cain says they get a percentage of gross, publisher says they can't count it as a sale. Then they start bringing up the cost of selling it, such as the physical goods in the box and packaging. Cain responds that is net, not gross, the company insists it is gross. They keep repeating it's gross and then never send Troika another check.

Another company just stopped sending Troika statements after the first few. Cain would ask for statements, they would say don't worry you aren't even close to hitting the point you get royalties, Cain says sure but he still wants the statements for records. They just stop returning his calls. As recently as 2018, Cain has asked that company about that, and they just said they were still compiling them and were behind. Cain finds it hard to believe as they are a public company and they had to do that. Third one, can't recall even seeing a single financial statement.

Why not just sue? Can't really sue a publisher, costs a lot of money. Second, the way accounting is done it may look like you didn't make money (Very common in Hollywood, Cain cites the My Big Greek Wedding incident, points that out as a rare win and most people lose their cases) even if you really made a lot. Once you do it, your relationship with that publisher is dead and many publishers will now avoid you. Taking into account digital sales, Cain believes they may have recouped on all three of Troika's games. Cain knows a lot of people seem to be playing and buying Arcanum and Bloodlines. On the one that is had a cut of the gross, Cain definitely suspects he is owed money. But he isn't going to spend tens of thousands of dollars just to hear 'no'. Employers may say don't worry they will take care of you, but if isn't in the contract, they won't and even if it is in the contract they probably won't. But Cain still goes back to being optimistic and thinks the next employer will be different.

To be balanced, Cain also gets this from employees. Someone says the engine can't support a feature, sometime later Cain or another worker figures out it did. Sometimes discovered too late to add it in. Been told by a lot of employees they would stay late after work to finish some stuff, he buys them dinner, they leave right after dinner. Been told by someone they love a genre and would be good in a game, then it becomes very clear they never ever played a game in that genre, they start saying and doing things that make it clear they have no experience in that genre. Cain doesn't mind new ideas, but if you try to back up your idea but saying lot of RPGs do it and then you can't name one, you have a problem. Frequently, Cain gets someone telling him they will finish a milestone or project before they leave the job for various reasons. Doesn't happen. Every single time, Cain believes them. Cain has even believed the same person who did this twice. Right back afterwards, Cain would be back to believing the next worker who says don't worry I'm staying until the project is finished.

Has been told multiple times at work to be quieter about some things. When Cain was at Obsidian during Outer Worlds and told people he would retire after the game, multiple people came up to him and said he really had to stop talking about that. Some of them meant you don't want to tell people you're retiring because it sounds like you don't really care about the job, others because it makes people feel weird/bad, they might never get to retire. Cain just wanted people to know next project, they would have to step up with him being gone, but he stopped talking about it. Was told he often repeated himself between team and admin meetings during weekly summaries. Cain says of course he is, they are two different audience, this person may have been at both meetings but not everyone is. What this person really meant is that Cain is telling the team things only admin should know, and telling admin some team related things they don't need to hear. Cain asks him to be specific. He got a general and rather vague answer that if you think the team and the admins should both hear the same thing about the state of the project, you are very naïve. Never quite got to the truth of the matter, but it came up several times.

If you still think Cain is not naïve and optimistic, just look at the channel and it's comments. 95% of them are super positive, but there are 5% of people that keep digging at things, saying he is too optimistic about the state of the industry. No matter how many times Cain points out his own mistakes and gives other's credits, he gets comments saying he is blaming everyone but himself. No matter how much detail he goes into, like on loot tables, people still want more detail. Cain isn't sure what they want beyond him posting code, and that might really be what they want. But he keeps making videos and hopes people will hear and get what he is saying, and some of the audience does, so he keeps doing it. Thinks a lot of the audience is reaching the right conclusions, industry has lots of pros and cons.

Cain was once told by a colleague his biggest strength and weakness is that he likes to tilt at windmills, and to never stop that.
 
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Sweeper

Arcane
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
4,075
He even has those small, slutty and gossipy wine aunt eyes.
Not the descriptor I'd normally use to describe another man's eyes, but hey, if you think Tim's been a bad boy and he's a slut that needs some punishing, more power to you Wally. Perfectly legal and socially acceptable in California. Ya homo.
 

I ASK INANE QUESTIONS

ITZ NEVER STOPS COOOMING
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
328
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Wants to talk about how he is Naïve and optimistic. Some of you are probably not surprised, others may be going whaaaat. Always been like this, stayed this way despite some negative stuff and despite a lot of good things happening. Has been told this by many people, some meant it kindly, one person pulled him aside and told him he was being really naïve and had to be worried about some people. Other people have not meant it kindly, they just told him he was too naïve. Both groups say it as if he doesn't already know it, he knows it, he is a firm believer that people are a certain way, there is a personality/brainset you have around your 20s or teens this just gets in set in place and that is how you are. Cain knows people always happy and peppy, he knows people always down, he knows some neutrals.
"I'm a forever optimist. My faith in the good of man is inviolable, and every cloud does, in fact, have a silver lining as far as I am concerned"
"Ay yo btw here's my literal Book of Grudges going back 30+ years and dozens of notebooks. You better not do anything to my unshakeable optimism and charming evergreen naivetee, otherwise you're going into the book, MOTHERFUCKER and you BET I'll remember it 20+ years down the line"
:-D:-D:-D
 
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Shitposter
Joined
May 1, 2024
Messages
438
Location
Neverwinter, Always Sunny
"I'm a forever optimist. My faith in the good of man is inviolable, and every cloud does, in fact, have a silver lining as far as I am concerned"
"Ay yo btw here's my literal Book of Grudges going back 30+ years and dozens on notebooks. You better not do anything to my unshakeable optimism and charming evergreen naivetee, otherwise you're going into the book, MOTHERFUCKER and you BET I'll remember it 20+ years down the line"
:-D:-D:-D

In real world outside your stinky basement, Optimistic people can and will be able to feel disappointment too.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,925
The Book of Slights is great.

  • Man Who Took My Bonus
  • Women Who Were Creeped Out By Burger Becky
  • Men Who Lied in Interviews
  • Man Who Stole Drinks Meant for Everyone from Troika
  • Men Who Promised to Work Late if I Bought Them Dinner Who Left Right After Eating
  • Arcanum Team that Kicked Me Out of Design Meetings for Dominating Them
  • Publisher That Promised Royalties and Then Found Excuses Not to Ever Pay Them
  • Uncooperative Art Lead from Carbine
  • Studio Owner Who Broke his Promise of Not Second-Guessing Me If I Would Become a Lead Again
  • Man Who Betrayed Me To Implement Something the Studio Owner Wanted That I Rejected
  • Woman Who Condescendingly Explained to Leonard why The Outer Worlds's Art Style was Awful Compared to Fallout's

No heroes or villains but this is the kind of dirt I like to see. :)
 

processdaemon

Scholar
Patron
Joined
Jul 14, 2023
Messages
637
I think naive people are more likely to have those sorts of grudges than anyone else. If you're a misanthrope or even just have an understanding that people can be a bit shitty when it's in their interest to be so then you at least won't be surprised when people act a bit selfish, if you expect everyone to be pleasant and honest then when people don't act that way you're going to think they're uniquely awful and remember them when a lot of the time they're probably fairly standard.
 

StrongBelwas

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 1, 2015
Messages
519

Wants to talk about having a job vs. a career/calling and how over the last 40 some years Cain has seen the proportion of people in each category change in the game industry. Something he has seen people make comments on, like it's just a job. Some people don't just view this as a job.
What does Cain mean by people viewing this as a job? They usually do tasks usually assigned to them, sometimes the one doing the assigning but that is there job. They get paid for it, outside of work they don't think about it. Doesn't occur to them, doesn't define them, they don't go to people and say hey I'm a game developer. It's something they do to support the things they want to do outside of work

There are the people who consider a career. Like the job people, tasks they do or assign out and they want to get paid, but they have a bigger picture. They often think about how these tasks fit in the whole thing of the product/game, or a line of games or genre. They think of them as things they are doing, but how can they be done better or the game be done better, what will they be doing in 5/10 years? What role are they expecting and how do they plan to get it. A big difference between career person and job person is career person considers those things outside of work. What can they do to advance their goals? Maybe learn a new skill, or ask specifically to manage a group after reading some books on the idea or attending a class. Their goal is to get better.

Then there are callings. Game developer is part of their identity. It's what you do, can't really imagine doing anything else. Always thinking about games and games design and so on everywhere, at work or not, and it's because you love it. Of course you want to get paid and you want that pay to be fair, but that isn't the point. The calling people absolutely love what they do. They get emotional fulfillment out of it.

All three of these types have been in game dev as far as Cain can remember. However, the proportions have changed. 30 or 40 years ago, the games industry had a huge barrier of entry. Not a lot of game jobs, hard to get them because you had to learn a lot of stuff on your own and had to demonstrate you knew those things. Do you know how to access the video card? Do you know how to optimize your software for a good framerate? Your average programmer back then didn't have to think about that. Really had to be your calling to get into the game industry, so in the 80s and even the early 90s Cain would say for most of them it was their calling. They really wanted to do this. They made active decisions in their life to get there.
Entering the 90s, the game industry is growing and becomes more profitable and stable. Wasn't unusual to hear people working in the game industry. Suddenly careers are possible. You go into the industry with a role in mind, whereas in the 80s you were probably juggling a lot of roles. In 90s roles were separated into artists and designers and producers, new way to think about it. People showed up expecting to be hired as QA or a Producer, not just a desire to be in the game industry. Books began to be published on how to code for games or design something, schools started teaching for it and degrees were offered.

Starting in 2010s and up to now, projects are huge. Tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions, approaching a billion dollars spent on one project. Job insecurity, because if these massive games don't sell well it's a huge loss, you aren't going to make it back on the next game. This loss of job security led to some career people becoming job people. Once you get laid off a few times, you stop thinking that far ahead, why think about your future at the company if you aren't even sure you will be there in a few years? Cain has been watching that happen.

Does Cain think the shift from calling to career to job is bad? If you've watched him long enough, you know how he feels; it's subjective. Each of the three groups feels justified in being the type they are. Job people say companies don't care about you and your job isn't secure, be there for the paycheck. Career people want to think about themselves but also where they will be in 10-20 years. Calling people know that is important but want to make a game no matter what. As games got bigger and bigger, both in budget and team size, when you have hundreds or a thousand people on one game, you can't expect everyone to be totally in it. By necessity, some of those people are just going to be jobs people doing their task and getting paid. That may even be desirable, as a thousand people all super passionate about the game and trying to insert their own ideas in would be chaos. You cannot have majority input on a game with hundreds on it, somebody has to steer the ship.

That kind of environment leads to people moving into the Job mindset, particularly the career people. A career is hard to have and plan for when your job is not secure, when layoffs are common or you doubt the company will even be around, 10 year plans are hard. Cain sees a lot of experience being lost as career people seek new industries. A good producer with management skills will move into some other creative industry or something else entirely, knowing their managing abilities will transfer over. Cain sees good programmers move to a none game dev programming job where they will get better pay and stability.

Cain, as the old guy, has seen this always happen. People say it's terrible now, it was terrible during the 80s console collapse, as a lot of people left the industry not by choice, just as it is happening now. Not good, losing people with good experience, but it always happens. Should not let it affect your decision to be a job people or career person,. it is a constant. Personally, Cain kind of misses the old days where he was surrounded by people who considered game development their calling. Led to a different game development environment, but Cain admits it may just be nostalgia talking. Maybe it just felt different because it was a small team where Cain knew everyone really well and they were always talking about new ideas. Easy with 15 people, harder with 100, almost impossible with 1000. Cain won't say it was better or worse, but it was very different, and Cain wants to bring it on the channel so you can use it as a lens for what is happening in the game industry. Has happened before, is happening now, will happen again in the future. Not the only lens to look at it with, but an interesting one.
 
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Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,382
The Book of Slights is great.
...
No heroes or villains but this is the kind of dirt I like to see. :)
Waiting for Tim Cain to address Chris Avellone's appearance in Fallout and the Rue Avellone in Arcanum. :M
 

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