Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[NecroLord]

New Reno whores also mention Chris.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

New Reno whores also mention Chris.

Tim Cain didn't work on Fallout 2 (except for an "additional programming" credit) or Fallout: Tactics, so can't be expected to explain the Avellone references in those two games, but he could shed insight into the Avellone references in Fallout (1) and Arcanum.

 

[Roguey]

Cain doesn't need to explain the Avellone reference because Chris did it himself in the Fallout Bible

It's just a joke from Jess Heinig, one of the programmers.

 

[Bulo]

'I'm Christopher and you're meat.' How many women has he used that one on? How many times did it work?

 

[NecroLord]

Third wheeling exit strategy...

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Cain doesn't need to explain the Avellone reference because Chris did it himself in the Fallout Bible

It's just a joke from Jess Heinig, one of the programmers.

This doesn't explain anything.

 

[__scribbles__]

I give my thoughts on making prequels. TLDW: I like them more than sequels, but I’d still rather make a new IP.

 

[StrongBelwas]

Did a video on sequels, but since then had people ask him about whether he would like to do a prequel or what he thinks of them.

TL;DW : Feels the same as sequels, but likes them more.

If given a big bag of cash, would still make a new IP instead of going to an old one, just likes that more. New ideas to explore, no constraints.

Has gotten the opportunity to work on New IPs several times, knows how lucky he is to get that and enjoys them more.

If given a lot of money and told to choose between making prequel or sequel for established IP, would pick prequel.

Has some reasons to back that up. Whenever you play a game, particularly the RPGs rich in lore Cain likes to play, you hear a lot about events in the past about people who did things. Goes back over disliking forced lore dumps vs. just being given a book to read. Likes being able to go back to skipped cutscenes.

Big fan of show not tell, and prequel gives you an opportunity to show. Go to famous person, talk to them, witness famous event instead of just hearing about it.

A big problem with sequels for the kind of games Cain makes is that they are nonlinear and there are many ending states to consider. What ending are you going to make canonical? But prequels have their own constraint, the events you heard about in the first game have to play out. You played that first game, you already know about that famous guy or that big dragon war. If you heard about an NPC dying, he has to die. Maybe you could get away with having them live in the game and die offscreen, but characters that live to the first game have to live, which requires essential NPCs, which Cain doesn't like. But anti-essential NPCs (NPC has to die no matter what) are also a problem. How are you going to do that, set it up so they have 1 HP and any blow kills them? What if the player hides a character that has to die in a locked door in a house, or paralyzes them before entering an important cave. Do you have it scripted so they just fall over dead at a certain point? It's an interesting problem to solve, how to kill them so certain events play it properly no matter what.

Now making a game under constraints can be fun, and Cain knows some developers that actually prefer that, they want an established frame, while Cain prefers to build the frame itself.

Yes, prequels are interesting to Cain, more interesting than sequels, but would still prefer making a new game.

Cain designed ToEE with sequels in mind, but it turned out Cain worked out a prequel idea for one of his other games. Won't say what it is, not to tease you, but simply because he hasn't told anyone else. It exists, and it is a totally different story Cain just wants to mention to show he has been interested in prequels in the past .

 

[StrongBelwas]

I talk about cultural references in games (and movies, TV shows, books, etc.) and how they make those games feel dated.

Cain wants to talk about why he hates cultural references. Almost said it was just about games, but really he hates them in general.
When Cain says cultural references, he doesn't just mean you referencing a song or movie you like, but any form of pop culture. Famous people, events, etc. Thinks Fallout 2 went overboard with them. Fallout made references to cultural events, but almost everything they had that was super obvious was a random lucky special encounter, that left the rest of the game feeling more timeless. Glad New Vegas hid that stuff behind Wild Wasteland, those who like it can get it others can avoid it.

Cain doesn't like making cultural references because it roots your game into a particular time. Cain prefers games to be timeless, by rooting he means that you have locked your game into a particular point in time that only a particular audience will get. A few years after, people might find some stuff funny but be confused why you are making a big deal about an actor or wonder if they are supposed to know who that politician is. What will happen is your tv show/movie/game whatever feels dated quickly. Cain knows that when he watches old TV shows he was into from the 80s/90s, he really preferred it when the guest stars weren't made a big deal of. There was an actor on, you kind of recognize them, if they make a big deal about it, quite possible he's forgotten who that actor is. If the actor references someone, everyone born afterwards won't get the joke. If an actor name drops George Bush, do they even know George Bush, or know which Bush they are talking about specifically? Show gets dated fast.

This dislike extends to the channel, Cain wants this channel to be timeless and avoids references. Cain wants this channel to be about game development and best practices for the audience to follow if they want to make good games, talking about the outrage of the week is not helpful. Shocking cutscenes, Sweet Baby, Brexit, misleading trailers, nobody will care about this in a few years. If you're younger than Cain, trust him, 90% of the things you think are important you won't even care about or remember in 10-20 years. The 10% you will care about, good luck figuring that out right now. You will be (un)pleasantly surprised in a few years about what you still care about and what you think is stupid. Good luck on guessing, don't try guessing, or if you do try guessing, don't make a public guess by putting it into a game you made that everyone can see. Forget years, things change so fast people might not care about in a week, or a day. Cain tries to make videos that even someone 10 years from now could find useful for their games, if they are working on a loot table his loot table video is still useful. If Cain talks about the "that cutscene with the bear", that person from 10 years will have no idea what he is talking about.

Try to have the same goal, make something people a year from now will have fun with and understand. There are many other things to consider for making a game timeless that aren't really in Cain's area of expertise but he will go over them in general; Going for super realistic artwork will always be beaten by next year's level of realism, game will look old and dated real fast. If you don't believe him, check out the realistic 90s games, particularly the FMV era which looks silly now.

If you absolutely, positively, are not convinced, and must add a cultural reference, use Cain's guide to humor. Make the reference in a way that if the player doesn't get the reference they don't even know a reference was made. They don't feel left out or that they missed out on. If they do get that feeling, they won't blame themselves, they will blame you. If you do something to make the player left out, they won't feel left out, they will just think the game is dumb.

TL;DW If you have to add a cultural reference to person/event/whatever, put it in in a way where people who know it will get the double meaning, but other people will get the surface level and then move on. If you do that, your games will last longer and be talked about longer.

 

[Odoryuk]

I think 3D Gex games came out with some already outdated pop-culture references and it gave them quite a unique charm in return.

 

[Alienman]

Cain apparently thinks everyone has the memory of a guppy. I understand not wanting to make a game full of lame references, but that excuse seems weird. Does that mean he would cram them full of references if he believed people would remember?

 

[Machocruz]

Always thought a lot of modern music, especially rap, is going to be extremely dated and possibly intelligible in short time because of the constant name-dropping celebrities and events that seem like a big deal now but will ultimately be forgotten and relatively quickly. There's levels to it, mentioning Alexander the Great is more evergreen than mentioning George Bush is more evergreen than Cardi B, and so on.

 

[Roguey]

Counterpoint, everyone considers the Golden Age Looney Tunes classics and they're full of a mix of highbrow and lowbrow cultural references.

Bugs Bunny forever changed the meaning of Nimrod because most people didn't even know that was a hunter of great skill from the Bible and his use of the term for Elmer Fudd was sarcastic.

Likewise Tim's beloved Simpsons.

This reference went right over my head as a child, didn't register it as a joke, didn't care. Caught a rerun when I was an adult and laughed out loud (especially given the context).

 

[Lyric Suite]

Nowadays we have a different problem it seems. Zoomers making references to past cultural artifacts they never actually experienced. I don't know how common it actually is as i don't play or watch the nu-shit but i caught it a few times.

 

[Wesp5]

This reference went right over my head as a child, didn't register it as a joke, didn't care. Caught a rerun when I was an adult and laughed out loud (especially given the context).

This is exactly the kind of reference that Tim likes. He just doesn't like the obvious-into-the-face ones that will age quickly...

 

[SpaceWizardz]

The premise for the jokes there are Maggie's increasingly convoluted plans to get her pacifier back from a harsh teacher, knowing who Rand is isn't necessary to get it.

 

[rojay]

The premise for the jokes there are Maggie's increasingly convoluted plans to get her pacifier back from a harsh teacher, knowing who Rand is isn't necessary to get it.

Right, but that screenshot is a specific joke that you'd only get if you know who Ayn Rand is.

This reference went right over my head as a child, didn't register it as a joke, didn't care. Caught a rerun when I was an adult and laughed out loud (especially given the context).

This is exactly the kind of reference that Tim likes. He just doesn't like the obvious-into-the-face ones that will age quickly...

I wonder where the cut off is for how deeply ingrained a reference has to be in the culture for it to be "timeless" and ok to reference according to Tim? I also wonder whether the fact that games are made for an international audience restricts what references are really "universal." Not entirely apropos, but I had a conversation with my 22 year-old son the other day and he said he'd used the phrase "death knell" with a friend around the same age and the guy had no idea what he was talking about.

Counterpoint, everyone considers the Golden Age Looney Tunes classics and they're full of a mix of highbrow and lowbrow cultural references.

Bugs Bunny forever changed the meaning of Nimrod because most people didn't even know that was a hunter of great skill from the Bible and his use of the term for Elmer Fudd was sarcastic.

"Nimrod" is also a slang term for "idiot," which is how I interpreted that Looney Tunes joke when I was a kid. It hadn't occurred to me there was more to it, but it was clearly a more subtle joke than I understood until about 10 minutes ago and I appreciate it more now. Thanks, dude.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

"Nimrod" is also a slang term for "idiot," which is how I interpreted that Looney Tunes joke when I was a kid. It hadn't occurred to me there was more to it, but it was clearly a more subtle joke than I understood until about 10 minutes ago and I appreciate it more now. Thanks, dude.

Wait until you find out where that word comes from.

 

[Roguey]

The premise for the jokes there are Maggie's increasingly convoluted plans to get her pacifier back from a harsh teacher, knowing who Rand is isn't necessary to get it.

Right, but that screenshot is a specific joke that you'd only get if you know who Ayn Rand is.

Yeah the lowbrow level are Maggie's antics. The highbrow level are these innocuous details that you'd only find funny if you know exactly what they're talking about.

"Nimrod" is also a slang term for "idiot," which is how I interpreted that Looney Tunes joke when I was a kid. It hadn't occurred to me there was more to it, but it was clearly a more subtle joke than I understood until about 10 minutes ago and I appreciate it more now. Thanks, dude.

That's what I mean, it never meant idiot until people misinterpreted Bugs and assigned their own meaning to it.

 

[NecroLord]

I talk about cultural references in games (and movies, TV shows, books, etc.) and how they make those games feel dated.

Cain wants to talk about why he hates cultural references. Almost said it was just about games, but really he hates them in general.
When Cain says cultural references, he doesn't just mean you referencing a song or movie you like, but any form of pop culture. Famous people, events, etc. Thinks Fallout 2 went overboard with them. Fallout made references to cultural events, but almost everything they had that was super obvious was a random lucky special encounter, that left the rest of the game feeling more timeless. Glad New Vegas hid that stuff behind Wild Wasteland, those who like it can get it others can avoid it.

Cain doesn't like making cultural references because it roots your game into a particular time. Cain prefers games to be timeless, by rooting he means that you have locked your game into a particular point in time that only a particular audience will get. A few years after, people might find some stuff funny but be confused why you are making a big deal about an actor or wonder if they are supposed to know who that politician is. What will happen is your tv show/movie/game whatever feels dated quickly. Cain knows that when he watches old TV shows he was into from the 80s/90s, he really preferred it when the guest stars weren't made a big deal of. There was an actor on, you kind of recognize them, if they make a big deal about it, quite possible he's forgotten who that actor is. If the actor references someone, everyone born afterwards won't get the joke. If an actor name drops George Bush, do they even know George Bush, or know which Bush they are talking about specifically? Show gets dated fast.

This dislike extends to the channel, Cain wants this channel to be timeless and avoids references. Cain wants this channel to be about game development and best practices for the audience to follow if they want to make good games, talking about the outrage of the week is not helpful. Shocking cutscenes, Sweet Baby, Brexit, misleading trailers, nobody will care about this in a few years. If you're younger than Cain, trust him, 90% of the things you think are important you won't even care about or remember in 10-20 years. The 10% you will care about, good luck figuring that out right now. You will be (un)pleasantly surprised in a few years about what you still care about and what you think is stupid. Good luck on guessing, don't try guessing, or if you do try guessing, don't make a public guess by putting it into a game you made that everyone can see. Forget years, things change so fast people might not care about in a week, or a day. Cain tries to make videos that even someone 10 years from now could find useful for their games, if they are working on a loot table his loot table video is still useful. If Cain talks about the "that cutscene with the bear", that person from 10 years will have no idea what he is talking about.

Try to have the same goal, make something people a year from now will have fun with and understand. There are many other things to consider for making a game timeless that aren't really in Cain's area of expertise but he will go over them in general; Going for super realistic artwork will always be beaten by next year's level of realism, game will look old and dated real fast. If you don't believe him, check out the realistic 90s games, particularly the FMV era which looks silly now.

If you absolutely, positively, are not convinced, and must add a cultural reference, use Cain's guide to humor. Make the reference in a way that if the player doesn't get the reference they don't even know a reference was made. They don't feel left out or that they missed out on. If they do get that feeling, they won't blame themselves, they will blame you. If you do something to make the player left out, they won't feel left out, they will just think the game is dumb.

TL;DW If you have to add a cultural reference to person/event/whatever, put it in in a way where people who know it will get the double meaning, but other people will get the surface level and then move on. If you do that, your games will last longer and be talked about longer.

I was never bothered all that much by the pop culture references in Fallout 2, but I do not think they should be a focus of video games.
Keep the retardation out of them.

 

[PunchYouInTheFace]

Cain apparently thinks everyone has the memory of a guppy

Cain think that most people are not Amerikanisch

 

[StrongBelwas]

Wants to talk about Bartle's taxonomy players (killers, socials, achievers, explorers)
This is something Cain has known about for decades and kind of agrees with. Whole bunch of interesting psychology you can read to learn more about video games, Cain really liked a book called the Psychology of Video Games, it talked about Space Invaders and Pac-Man but relevant today.
Bartle was/is a UK Professor that created the first MUD, people have been playing multi user dungeons for about 50 years. Bartle started to notice things about the people who played.

First group was achievers, people who liked their progress to be measured. They like meters and bars and percentages, probably love achievements. Been around since the beginning. IF they do a quest, they want XP, they want to know how far to the next level and what they get at that, looking for the progress.
Next group is explorers, they love big maps, the open world. Love going off the beaten path, love discovery, new locations. Doesn't matter if they don't get XP, they like the discovery. Secrets doors, hidden chests are all things they like.

Next group is killers. Power gamers, min maxers, kill everything and sort out the loot, NPCs and maybe players if they can. Push the game as hard as they can. Not so much the achievement as they fact they killed everyone in this town or highest possible attack/defense

Finally, socializers. Socializers mean a little more then they like talking. They are here for the story, doing the quests to see where they lead, not for XP or killing. Just want to see where it takes them. They will take time in an NPC dialogue. They like talking to other players. Most likely to play clerics and give out buffs.
Not a perfect grid, but it captures a lot of players. Played a ton of MUDs in the 80s, and got into LP Mud. Made one with another graduate student called Wintermute.

For various reasons (His father passing away, an Australian beating him to his thesis and writing too many white papers for him to extend on) Cain walked away from Wintermute, but some guys active on Wintermute started their own called Darker Realms, and Cain convinced a guy who went by Raceland (John IRL) to get a job at Interplay. He would work on Starfleet Academy, he used GNOL there and Cain used his scripting system, good programmer.

They talked about the different kinds of players, Cain made a huge dungeon with all kinds of things to explore and portals that took you to places, some people were content just with placing monsters down.

When Everquest came out, Cain saw it as just a graphical MUD, Cain knew a MUD group that thought they had ripped stuff off from them. When you looked at the Everquest commands, they were what you inputted in MUDs. Rather than describe the room, there was a graphical version of the room, Cain got really addicted.

At Carbine, Cain talked about Bartle's taxonomy, and wanted to support them in Wildstar. His lead designer and his team put together the Wildstar paths. Always confused Cain when people said nothing from him remained in the game after he left as the paths were as he planned it. Scientists were achievers, explorers mapped directly to explorers and got secret paths anyone could use afterwards, but you need the explorer first. Soldiers=killers, got unique weapons and boss encounters. Social was Settlers, could build structures to help defend towns and buff players. They shipped Wildstar with this, and Cain thought it was really cool. Classes were the game telling the player what they could do, but pathes were the player telling the game how he liked to play. You pick settler, you want NPCs helping you defend towns, soldiers get big fights, explorers get new paths. "This is how I like to play, give me things like this. The Bartle taxonomy is not a perfect map of human behavior, nothing is, but it is a useful guide. Wouldn't hurt you to read about it, but don't feel beholden to it, it is another tool.

(No summary tomorrow, out)

 

[rojay]

That's what I mean, it never meant idiot until people misinterpreted Bugs and assigned their own meaning to it.

I spent more time on this than I should have but according to a few sources I've found it's a little more complicated. tl;dr: Nimrod was used as an insult, probably sarcastically to describe a bad hunter, from the 19th century, but the cartoon popularized that usage.

Here's the relevant portion of a Columbia Journalism Review Article: https://www.cjr.org/language_corner/nimrod_nabob_mogul.php#:~:text=Here's Merriam-Webster's explanation of,' ”


A letter to an advice columnist recently complained that a son’s school was treating his parents “like nimrods.” In context, it was clear that the letter writers meant “idiots.” But “nimrod” used to be a positive word, not a negative one.

Yes, it’s time for “when good words go bad.”

For many years, centuries even, “nimrod” meant “a hunter,” perhaps even a great one. In the Bible, Nimrod, a descendant of Ham, was portrayed as “a mighty hunter before the Lord.” As the Merriam-Webster Dictionary notes, “It’s easy to see how people made the leap from one mighty hunter in the Bible to calling any hunter a nimrod.”

So how did he get to be an idiot?

Nimrod was a king of Shinar, what we know more familiarly as Mesopotamia. Interestingly enough, the Mesopotamians had a war god whose name was Nintura, who was also known as a mighty hunter. Coincidence? Not to The Oxford English Dictionary, which says that Nintura begat Nimrod, etymologically speaking, and that “Nimrod” translates from the Hebrew to “we will rebel.” Turns out that neither Nintura nor Nimrod were particularly benevolent, and the first non-capitalized use of “nimrod” was “tyrant.” That usage is now obsolete. (But hold on to that thought.)

Um, “idiot”?

We’re getting there.

Here’s Merriam-Webster’s explanation of the transformation: “The legendary Nimrod is also sometimes associated with the attempt to build the Tower of Babel. Because the tower resulted in the wrath of the Lord and proved a disastrous idea, nimrod is sometimes used with yet another meaning: ‘a stupid person.’ ”

But Bryan A. Garner blames Bugs Bunny. As he wrote in “The Ongoing Tumult in English Usage,” an essay in Garner’s Modern English Usage, Bugs used “nimrod” to taunt his nemesis Elmer Fudd (a hunter, no coincidence):

“What a moron! [pronounced like maroon] What a nimrod! [pronounced with a pause like two words, nim rod].” So for an entire generation raised on these cartoons, the word took on the sense of ineptitude—and therefore what was originally a good joke got ruined.

However, the OED says that “nimrod” has been used ironically for many years to mean a hunter who is maybe not-so-great. And it traces the North American slang “nimrod,” meaning “a stupid or contemptible person; an idiot” to 1933, before Bugs munched his first carrot.


That's more or less what Wikipedia says, too. Basically it was either used sarcastically to describe a bad hunter or because Nimrod was connected in some stories the the Tower of Babel story, which did not end well for him.

There are a couple of sources I found that do connect Looney Tunes and the "idiot" meaning, and from what I've read it looks like the cartoons popularized that usage at the very least.

 

[AndyS]

However, the OED says that “nimrod” has been used ironically for many years to mean a hunter who is maybe not-so-great. And it traces the North American slang “nimrod,” meaning “a stupid or contemptible person; an idiot” to 1933, before Bugs munched his first carrot.


That's more or less what Wikipedia says, too. Basically it was either used sarcastically to describe a bad hunter or because Nimrod was connected in some stories the the Tower of Babel story, which did not end well for him.

There are a couple of sources I found that do connect Looney Tunes and the "idiot" meaning, and from what I've read it looks like the cartoons popularized that usage at the very least.

I wonder if this was a Vaudeville thing, since a lot of classic cartoons and comedy films recycled old gags from those live performances.

 

[__scribbles__]

I talk about books that influenced my game designs. I talk about each book specifically and then how they influenced my design in general.