Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Infinitron]

 

[Infinitron]

I talk shop about programming combat, right down to the data structures and algorithms I use.

p.s. at 30 seconds in, this video also demonstrates that I don't edit my videos.

 

[StrongBelwas]

Reiterates his previous line about fun always trumping realism or
Most RPG protagonists run and jump far more then a normal human (Not really?), Tim had a boss that referred to this as the Joy of Movement and why fun trumped realism in this instance.
When Fallout was GURPS, you started with a certain amount of hit points and that never changed, early versions of Fallout suffered from not feeling like the characters were getting progressively more powerful, armor was one solution but it didn't feel like the character themselves was changing. Considering the optional rule of splitting health and hit points into two and letting you buy more.
On the subject of economy, money sinks are often optional. People will often just avoid them, and Cain is fine with this because he thinks fun trumps realism in this instance.
Top level rule is fun trumps realism, it was the first design pillar of the Outer Worlds, used that as a counter when other developers wanted to change something in the game because it was unrealistic.
Inconsistent rules can hurt fun
People don't mind unrealism when it helps them but complain when it hurts them.
It's not realistic that you could savescum a lock in Arcanum and fast travel with the stolen goods, but nobody complains about that. But they do complain about everyone knowing the item is stolen automatically.
Pillars of game would be fun first, realism maybe third or fourth in a list of five most important things.
Science weapons in outer worlds were a case of fun trumps realism
Recommendation for people getting into game design is to make your rules, stick with them, don't worry if they are realistic or if they are antagonistic/beneficial to the player, just worry if they are fun. One inconsistency he is fine with is knocking out NPCs but not knocking out the player. Doesn't like it when players can reach areas NPCs can't like a high vantage point to shoot someone from.
Far more worried about a player reaching the endgame not able to complete it with a reasonable character then players figuring out a way to get a million coins or have every faction to like them.

Spoiler

 

[Roguey]

I considered the "everyone knows the item is stolen" thing as an abstraction of the item being reporting as stolen. Yeah, they're very quick about it. I think it's keen when there's stolen-status-decay so you can move the items when they're no longer hot.

When Fallout was GURPS, you started with a certain amount of hit points and that never changed, early versions of Fallout suffered from not feeling like the characters were getting progressively more powerful, armor was one solution but it didn't feel like the character themselves was changing.

Tim purposely not doing what Age of Decadence did.

 

[Harthwain]

I considered the "everyone knows the item is stolen" thing as an abstraction of the item being reporting as stolen. Yeah, they're very quick about it. I think it's keen when there's stolen-status-decay so you can move the items when they're no longer hot.

I would love to see a game where information like this is an important factor. Similarly to how order can be delayed or misunderstood by units in tactical/stategy games.

 

[Bohrain]

I considered the "everyone knows the item is stolen" thing as an abstraction of the item being reporting as stolen. Yeah, they're very quick about it. I think it's keen when there's stolen-status-decay so you can move the items when they're no longer hot.

Similarly to how order can be delayed or misunderstood by units in tactical/stategy games.

Never had the joy of playing a strategy game with shit pathfinding or line of sight?

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about the Fallout team, about each one individually and how I remembered them years later. It was a very good team.

 

[NecroLord]

I talk about the Fallout team, about each one individually and how I remembered them years later. It was a very good team.

 

[The Bishop]

I don't think there's really a dichotomy between realism and fun. This is a rather superficial take. It's like advising somebody: make good products, and bad products - don't make. As if there's some sort of argument with people advocating against fun in games.

When some people ask for more realism they do it because they think it would be more fun. Can they be wrong? Most certainly. The deeper question is why. Why is it not fun to, say, manage bladder in most games, yet it's fine in a game like Sims? Or why, for example, all fights in Fallout aren't resolved in form of cart racing? Is cart racing fun? It sure is. Is it simple to understand, is it consistent? Absolutely. So why not? Are you just denying people their fun because it's unrealistic?

Going with what is "fun" ultimately means that you don't actually know why you do things the way you do. You just stumble around and try to find your way by feel. Which is a good explanation for why Outer Worlds is such a huge departure from older games even though it seemingly follows the same "design principles".

 

[Butter]

I don't think there's really a dichotomy between realism and fun. This is a rather superficial take. It's like advising somebody: make good products, and bad products - don't make. As if there's some sort of argument with people advocating against fun in games.

When some people ask for more realism they do it because they think it would be more fun. Can they be wrong? Most certainly. The deeper question is why. Why is it not fun to, say, manage bladder in most games, yet it's fine in a game like Sims? Or why, for example, all fights in Fallout aren't resolved in form of cart racing? Is cart racing fun? It sure is. Is it simple to understand, is it consistent? Absolutely. So why not? Are you just denying people their fun because it's unrealistic?

Going with what is "fun" ultimately means that you don't actually know why you do things the way you do. You just stumble around and try to find your way by feel. Which is a good explanation for why Outer Worlds is such a huge departure from older games even though it seemingly follows the same "design principles".

It's also entirely subjective. No two people are going to agree on how fun all the different mechanics in a game are. Part of the beauty of something like Arcanum is that multiple people with completely different conceptions of fun can find playstyles that suit them.

 

[antimeridian]

As if there's some sort of argument with people advocating against fun in games.

Yeah it's a total strawman. Sure is a good way for Tim to shut down any criticism and avoid considering cool gameplay ideas though.

 

[Bulo]

why, for example, all fights in Fallout aren't resolved in form of cart racing?

I'd probably remember Fallout 4 more fondly if every quest had instead been a Mario Party/WarioWare-like minigame

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about how to pace your games, both in terms of narrative and within gameplay itself.

 

[Roguey]

Tim claiming the Battle of Hoover Dam is a big fight - here's a guy who didn't save his stealth boys for this moment.

Tim's opinion is that people who complain about too much text/combat/etc in his games often bring it on themselves.

If a player goes into your dungeon and finds a bookcase full of books and decides they're going to read all of it, they're going to read each one of these, and then later they complain about how the pacing in the dungeon was off that's on them.

You have to seed a certain level of control over to the player and hope that they understand that they have this control. The way I've described it to people is: my games offer a variety but you have to select it. It's like here's your menu, there's a bunch of stuff on the menu, you may not like some of it, and you know what you like and what you don't like, if you pick something off the menu, if you're like "I hate cilantro but I'm going to try your cilantro salsa" and then you don't like it, you probably shouldn't blame the restaurant.

Though I believe there are some exceptions here. Arcanum has too many enemy-heavy dungeons on the critical path. Bloodlines's last few levels are stealth-unfriendly combat-fests.

 

[NecroLord]

Arcanum has too many enemy-heavy dungeons on the critical path.

Sheeit.
I'm telling you, completing the Black Mountain Mines successfully will make a MAN out of you.

 

[Diggfinger]

 

[vitellus]

When some people ask for more realism they do it because they think it would be more fun

the dayz mod was a fun 'realistic' game about chernograd during a minor zombie thing filled with treacherous asshats (me included) who'll rob you for your can of beans, and the realism made it challenging and fun. elite: dangerous was not super realistic because real spaceflight (let's take three days to get across the system at impulse!) wouldn't be fun for people not sperging autists. i like arcade racing games, realistic ones are stressful. my brother is the opposite and has a racing wheel of some kind because he loves that shit.

how fun realism is depends on your level of autism.

 

[Roguey]

Tim confirms he has a Switch and a Series X. He got into console gaming in 2019 because of leg damage.

Tim made his Steam profile private because I kept reporting on how many hours he was sinking into the Borderlands series. He claims that just because he plays a game lot doesn't mean he likes it, sometimes it's purely research and analysis.

Tim said they were told to make The Outer Worlds casual, so don't blame him for how it's dumbed down. He was the one who pushed for silliness, Leonard pushed for social commentary.

The Fallout team gelled very well so it was surprising and disappointing for Tim later on when he actually had to deal with difficult people.

A hypothetical scenario where he kept on making Fallout games: fully 3D and exploring different parts of the world and not just America (i.e. retrofuturistic Russia and China).

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

He claims that just because he plays a game lot doesn't mean he likes it, sometimes it's purely research and analysis.

A true Codexer

 

[Diggfinger]

A hypothetical scenario where he kept on making Fallout games: fully 3D and exploring different parts of the world and not just America (i.e. retrofuturistic Russia and China).

Nothing new and the most 'safe' answer he could give her. It's been said before, perhaps when he and Leonard talked.
Guess me might never know what his actual Fallout ideas are.

But interestingly, he said "that's not where the series are going" (implying, I think, that Bethesda is not at all taking the series down the same route as Tim would).

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

Tim made his Steam profile private because I kept reporting on how many hours he was sinking into the Borderlands series. He claims that just because he plays a game lot doesn't mean he likes it, sometimes it's purely research and analysis.

He was the one who pushed for silliness, Leonard pushed for social commentary.

I see Tim's research did not go to waste.

Tim said they were told to make The Outer Worlds casual, so don't blame him for how it's dumbed down.

Memory holing the whole shapes and triangles talk, huh. Alright then.

The Fallout team gelled very well so it was surprising and disappointing for Tim later on when he actually had to deal with difficult people.

QED.

 

[0sacred]

women

 

[NoMoneyNoFameNoDame]

Stop sending Cain/game companies your ideas for games, it just creates potential lawsuits for him and ideas in and of themselves aren't of much worth without execution.
Some of the most annoying people he's had to work with are the people who won't take "No" to their idea as an answer until he has to be super direct with them and then they complain.

I think one point Tim failed to capitalize on, is you should also keep your precious idea to yourself for your own good in general.
Meaning blog posts about your idea demeans the idea if you didn't already prove them.

Pre-announcements rarely have the strategic value we imagine them to.

This is how patches should work as well. Pre-announcing patches that involve work you haven't done is a good way to ruin your patch.

1) Don't tell the world what you're doing.
2) Do finish what you're doing, then you can tell the world.

Pitching an entire game idea is hilarious self-destructive practice.

It's why I kept secret about my game and the specifics as long as possible. A bunch also got cut, and I had to renegg on a few key features.

The magic of DMing Tim Cain, and be like you can make this work just listen. Yeah that's dumb.

Now finish is perhaps subjective. But usually having a prototype that works is enough. However I would add a 3rd rule.

3) Don't share just because you did a good thing.

Recall that other than for marketing purposes, presenting that you did a good thing is a waste of time.

Tim Cain did surprise me about one thing. He won't even look at demos. If his reasoning is correct about legal danger why does he work with more than one client?
In essence if someone emailed Tim Cain with a preauthorized I won't sue you legal letter, would Tim actually then review your shit?

I think he would resist because he's probably aware that a lot of people who look up to him, he would be ashamed of.
Everyone can go play the game they like philosophy, does not solve the problem of what if Tim hates your game?

Anyway I want to apologize to Tim for spreading that nasty T:OW dev conversation. It occurs to me he might view such rumors
as lies, being spread.. that would be terrible. So I disavow any leaked conversations that suggest Tim has wrongly steered T:OW
or wrongly quieted T:OW employees differences of opinion.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about why I think it is critically important to challenge yourself. Specifically, you should find ways to take some risks and push yourself so that when opportunities arise, you will be able to take advantage of them.

 

[NecroLord]

I talk about why I think it is critically important to challenge yourself. Specifically, you should find ways to take some risks and push yourself so that when opportunities arise, you will be able to take advantage of them.

Just be urself, bro.