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Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

NecroLord

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Zaxis is a random encounter in ToEE, you find him on the world map and he is looking for his sister.
You can even recruit Zaxis.
As a Bard, he makes for a decent (though not overly strong or useful) character.
I have yet to encounter him in my current run while travelling on the World Map. You can check the "What game are you wasting time on?" thread if you want to know more.
 

StrongBelwas

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Still won't review games, but decided he would do something a bit silly today.
Will talk about the mechanics/story/settings he has seen so overused it makes him lose interest. Plays a little clip of Dark Willow from Buffy saying she's bored. Not in any particular order, and he probably isn't thinking of any particular game because there have been so many.
First one: Saving the world. Demons are invading, aliens are invading, the dark god is coming, there is a plague coming and everyone is going to die. Understands why RPGs do this, but prefers lower scoped problems, or at least problems caused by other problems. Something the player can acknowledge and deal with without becoming a god themselves.
Next, villain monologue. Villains going on for minutes talking about all they stuff they are going to do. Cain would rather you show it instead of having them talk about what they do.
Next, sarcastic NPCs. Soooo original, sooooooo edgy. Has been done to death, complained to a Narrative designer that his sarcastic NPC overuse was super cliche. The designer said sometimes cliches work (This same designer had apparently ripped apart the other designers' ideas for being cliches.)
Open world just for the sake of having an open world. You have an open world, what do you do in it? There's nothing there, no exploration or discovery, just kilometers of nothingness. Finds this happens because someone had a great idea for an RPG that would have worked well with zones or hub and spoke, but thinks someone or the team or a publisher insisted they have an open world because that is the thing. It gets boring.
Complex systems just for the sake of complexity. Not getting anything cool out of it, just throwing a lot at the player. Maybe you're hoping something sticks if you throw enough at him. If Cain has to go online to figure out how to spend his level up, or use a spreadsheet, he is probably done. Level up should be fun and imaginative, and he should be able to picture where his character could develop.
Next, fake evil. They say they have evil paths, technically they do, but you try to go down it, you just get early game overs. You release the plague, game just ends. Also sees a variety where you go evil and most of the game just shuts down. NPCs don't talk to you, most quests vanish. Technically a path, but not nearly as developed as the good path.
Has also seen fake evil game where you can dress evil and maybe act evil but when it comes down to it you are going down the exact same path as the good characters, you just look goth doing it. That's why they included unusual endings in ToEE, such as joining Zuggtmoy or making her kneel to you as the greater evil. That is true evil.
Than there are a whole host of other things. RPGs with pure linear stories, RPGs with premade characters that come with name/stats/backstory. RPGs with no real CnC, or fake CnC. You can choose something, but it changes nothing really, a few lines of dialogue but you are doing the same quest in the end. Some people ask Cain if he considers these RPGs. He thinks of RPGs as a continuum and each one of these you do, you are a bit less of an RPG to him. Eventually you will get to the other side of the spectrum where it is just an adventure game.
The flipside of this is endless combat. You get an RPG, but it's really a combat simulator with some attributes or skills. Some people consider ToEE this, but that is just Cain being a bad narrative designer. Cain wants a choice in how to play and have the game reacts to that.
Dislikes WoW style combat choreography. People may think raids are hard, but he has seen a video where a guy just goes 'dot, dot', stop dot.' Very coordinated, basically combat ballet. Cain would rather play DDR at this point, Cain really liked a game that recently came out where you fought on the beat.
Having loads of loredumps in your game is also boring. They had to do it in the 80s, than in the 90s they could do it less and by the time of the 2000s there was no excuse. Show, don't tell. If there are optional NPCs to explain it if Cain wants to know more , that's nice. Books Cain can choose to read is nice. If the lore helps you with optional systems he can ignore is fine with.
A few things about the player character he is tired of. Had said this to many narrative designer over the decades, stop it with the amnesia. You get one use of amnesia in your career, use it again, Cain will roast you. Is particularly tired of the trope of the godlike character getting amnesia and having to relearn their powers. Also dislikes the young misunderstood protagonist who is super special. Entire class of RPGs that he tends to avoid. Finds it tiresome and over that trope. Doesn't mind young person who can't control their power and does something bad, but the complaining is annoying.
 
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Roguey

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Saving the world - you mean like in The Outer Worlds?

Villain monologues - you mean like in The Outer Worlds?

Sarcastic NPCs - you mean like in The Outer Worlds?

Open world for the sake of an open world - okay that one I'll give you.

Complex systems for the sake of complexity - uh, do newer RPGs even do this?

If I have to go online to figure out how to spend my level up point or I have to use a spreadsheet to figure it out at that point I'm usually like "I'm done"
Oh I get it, this is an indictment of Underrail and Mathfinder. Maybe Troubleshooter as well if that's on his radar.

Fake evil - not a fan of non-standard game overs or games that punish you excessively for making evil choices or games where it just provides cosmetic reactivity, another win for TOW.

Linear stories and stories that only have cosmetic c&c - eh, different styles, but this combined with the above shows that Cain is not a fan of the Bioware Style in particular.

Also not much of a fan of tactical rpgs where combat is all there is with no reactivity. Amused how he says it was not his intent to make ToEE a trpg. :lol:

Lore dumps - Pillars get told, but this is at odds with his previous opinion of "Don't like it, don't read it." He did mention he hates it when it's mandatory.

Amnesia - in a previous video he mentioned you can only use this once.

He also never liked the stereotypical Young Adult protagonist who's an outcast with special powers. Not sure why he's bringing this up, do any wrpgs even use this? It's more of a jrpg thing.
 

HumanMech

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Dec 22, 2023
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Next, fake evil. They say they have evil paths, technically they do, but you try to go down it, you just get early game overs. You release the plague, game just ends. Also sees a variety where you go evil and most of the game just shuts down. NPCs don't talk to you, most quests vanish. Technically a path, but not nearly as developed as the good path.
Has also seen fake evil game where you can dress evil and maybe act evil but when it comes down to it you are going down the exact same path as the good characters, you just look goth doing it.
But he said, that he liked BG3.
 

ds

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Was the irony of using a pop culture reaction clip in this video intentional? Because that's straight out of the boring derivative youtuber 101 playbook.
 

StrongBelwas

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In response to a question contrasting his Setting----->Story----->Mechanics with Miyazaka's Mechanics----->Setting---->Story.
Obviously, making mechanics first works for some developers.
There isn't one magic bullet to making a game and anyone who says there is is probably trying to sell you something. Cain is just talking about what he discovered worked best for him.
In Cain's experience, he has ideas for tons of mechanics. Books all over his desk of his setting/mechanic/story ideas. Never a shortage of those. He doesn't really just work on a game and see what it makes him think of. Has many mechanic ideas that would not work well together. Some mechanic ideas would require save games to be done a certain way, others would limit certain player builds. Some mechanics he thinks of that do work well together may create a very limiting constraint on the resulting story/settings they would work in. There are a lot of people who want to contribute to what the story and setting is who are not involved with the mechanics creation, you'll end up having to reject a lot of ideas because they don't fit into these mechanics you made at the start.
If you go setting and story before mechanics, artist and story designers can have a say in things about the story and setting with no limitations. If one of your artists really wants to do art deco, what kind of story would be told in that setting?
Hard to go the other direction. When Leonard came up with the 50s art style for Fallout, they were still trying to support all the GURPS generic skills and advantages, that part of mechanics wouldn't be a constraint. When GURPS was replaced, a lot of the mechanics for SPECIAL were influenced by the setting they had thought of at that point. i.e consideration for radiation.
Going setting first lets you pick mechanics from the vast space of possible mechanics. Of course the reverse is true, once you have mechanics settled in you can pick your story, but Cain repeats that it constrains the non-system developers from being able to influence it (And there are far more non-system designers than system designers on your team.)
Rarely feels like someone suggests a setting with zero idea for mechanics, it's more like having dozens of ideas for mechanics and wondering which one to use.
Because you are doing mechanics after setting and story, you pick ones that support and reinforce the setting/story. Automatically makes mechanics feel more coherent. Sometimes you'll play a game and some mechanic will feel out of place. Characters may be surprised about the player speaking with the dead or raising them or healing the blind despite it being a fantasy setting. Cain believes this happened because a mechanic was put in without any consideration for the setting changes or the mechanic came first before the setting.
The people who make mechanics tend to be more left brained.
Finally, more often than not, when publishers first approach you, they ask about the setting first before anything. They may approach you wanting work done in a particular setting. When Troika was asked what game Arcanum was, they said fantasy world undergoing industrial revolution, they didn't start talking about the skill system. For Troika's next two games, the publisher approached them with a setting. Will you do D&D and will you do World of Darkness? For D&D they were asked what module they wanted to do story wise, and mechanic discussion like maybe not being able to implement Bards/Paladins came last. Even if you are making an original IP, they may later bring up mechanics, but most publishers will ask you what you are doing originally or your hook (Which is generally mechanics), that is the closest they come to asking about mechanics most of the time. They may ask for microtransactions or a tutorial level, but Cain considers it a bit outside the scope of system mechanics, it is at the meta level not in-world.
 
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The Wall

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None of what he talks about applies to Outer Worlds, last game he directed. Nothing. It's like catfishing on Tinder. What he talks about game design and development and what he delivers in his games for last 10+ years, nothing aligns

He is great source of information for future Devs who actually want to build RPGs like Troika's and according to Tim's guidelines. Otherwise - it's laughable. Like Genghis Khan having youtube channel and filming videos about consentual sex, love, non-violance and romance

Dude WHERE in Outer Worlds you have applied anything you keep talking about. Braindead Boomer
 

NecroLord

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Will you do D&D and will you do World of Darkness? For D&D they were asked what module they wanted to do story wise, and mechanic discussion like maybe not being able to implement Bards/Paladins came last.
Good thing they did Temple of Elemental Evil from Greyhawk, and not Forgotten Realms...
 

Wesp5

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None of what he talks about applies to Outer Worlds, last game he directed. Nothing.

What are you talking about? The Outer Worlds is absolutely an example for when world setting came first, then the story and mechanics last! Which migh explain the bad itemisation and other things...
 

Gandalf

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Tim said in this video that he went through all of his Fallout notes and will publish an almost 25 minute long video about the The Defenitive Timeline of Fallout Developement on April 5, 2024.
He also said that the video is processing now and he hope you'll like it.
 

The Wall

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Just on time before Real World's Fallout
pipboy_approve.png
 

StrongBelwas

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Cain is going to wade into the minefield.
Has always viewed an RPG as a continuum. Especially lately when games are coming out that people say have RPG Mechanics (They never really define what those RPG mechanics are.)
Think of it as a checklist of game features. The more of them you have, the more Cain considers you an RPG. List has an order, but Cain will only give the order when he is done.
First one is, he can make his own character, including naming it. Very important, character creation choices should matter. They shouldn't be super limited, but they should be reflected on in the game. Your class, race, gender, attributes, skills, something in the game should be checking those. Gender could be as basic as changing if people refer to he or she, gender was a bigger deal in some of Cain's games but he thought it was ok as long as it balanced. Some people didn't like that. A lot of games put a lot of effort into character appearance, but if the game doesn't mention that Cain doesn't find it very important. Games of his that did have a lot of appearance features had that because someone else on the team pushed for them.
Once you are playing the character, Cain wants the player character to have a lot of choices on how to make. High level, how you decide to do combat/stealth/dialogue or have companions, or low level (What does your character does moment to moment., do you insult people or try to be nice.)
Third thing is that the story is reacting to your character selection (To a certain degree, doesn't want stuff you decided at the start to dictate too much about the rest) and action in the games.
Fourth thing is nonlinear story. Prefers to do things in the order he wants to do them, go where he wants to go, do what he wants to do. Repeats her prefers player driven story vs. story driven game. Story driven game is a narrative designer dictating to you what happens, doesn't like it. Wants the player to activate the narrative as they come across it.
Fifth, multiple endings. Cain expects different endings, dramatically different endings, ones with his companions and what happened to them.
Leading into story gating and area gating. Wants that based on character choices, not designer choices. Let's say you have a dungeon and you don't want the player going in there right away. Cain is fine with you implementing a key or passphrase the player needs to enter. He is even fine with you not spawning in the NPC the player needs to get the key/passphrase from until a certain point in the game or they are in a very hard to find place. What he doesn't like is if the door hard coded to never open until Act III. Cain has played games recently that he liked where he tried to step onto a continuation of the map and it tells him he can't go there yet because of his level or story act. Would be annoying if he went a door and it said you had to be level 10 before walking in. That is the developer slapping you, wants the restrictions embedded in the story.
Similarly, prefers for perks that have preqeqs be on a skill being a certain level or other perks purchased. Dislikes them being level gated. Is OK with them being gated into tiers and you have to buy a certain number of tier 1 perks to get tier 2 perks, which effectively guarantees some perks can't be taken until a certain level. Again, developer imposing on the player instead of the player choosing. This may sound narrow, but think of it as the player seeing choices they making opening up other options vs. developer dictate.
Wants the world to be big enough to support exploration and player choice, as well as adventures that aren't the main story.
That is Cain's checklist. Have all of those, you are an RPG. Take them off one by one, you become a little less of an RPG. Notice the order Cain went in, Systems -----> Story ----->Setting, the opposite of how he tells you to design games. But this is how game's present themselves most often. You are thrust into character creation, then you start playing and learn what kind of story they are being thrust into. Then as you play the game and begin to discover the setting. You may have heard a game blurb of the setting, but now you walk through it and discover it.
Many people disagree on what an RPG is. Some of it is down to how many things on Cain's checklist the game has. Some people say if it misses one it isn't an RPG, some people are fine with some of them being gone but others being gone are red lines. Some people treat it like Cain does, the more of them you have the more of an RPG you are, and vice versa. Some people weight them differently, maybe choices mattering is very important but making your own character isn't that important to them.
You could call them Hard RPGs, Soft RPGs, hardcore RPGs, casual RPGs, Cain considers it all a continuum. Cain doesn't think you should get too hung up on it, the continuum is rarely as set in stone as you think, references and links his D&D Koan. Making a hard line in the sand for RPGs is doomed to fail.
 
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