Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[NecroLord]

Next, villain monologue. Villains going on for minutes talking about all they stuff they are going to do. Cain would rather you show it instead of having them talk about what they do.

 

[Roguey]

Saving the world - you mean like in The Outer Worlds?

Villain monologues - you mean like in The Outer Worlds?

Sarcastic NPCs - you mean like in The Outer Worlds?

Open world for the sake of an open world - okay that one I'll give you.

Complex systems for the sake of complexity - uh, do newer RPGs even do this?

If I have to go online to figure out how to spend my level up point or I have to use a spreadsheet to figure it out at that point I'm usually like "I'm done"

Oh I get it, this is an indictment of Underrail and Mathfinder. Maybe Troubleshooter as well if that's on his radar.

Fake evil - not a fan of non-standard game overs or games that punish you excessively for making evil choices or games where it just provides cosmetic reactivity, another win for TOW.

Linear stories and stories that only have cosmetic c&c - eh, different styles, but this combined with the above shows that Cain is not a fan of the Bioware Style in particular.

Also not much of a fan of tactical rpgs where combat is all there is with no reactivity. Amused how he says it was not his intent to make ToEE a trpg.

Lore dumps - Pillars get told, but this is at odds with his previous opinion of "Don't like it, don't read it." He did mention he hates it when it's mandatory.

Amnesia - in a previous video he mentioned you can only use this once.

He also never liked the stereotypical Young Adult protagonist who's an outcast with special powers. Not sure why he's bringing this up, do any wrpgs even use this? It's more of a jrpg thing.

 

[NecroLord]

Stop talking about The Shittier Worlds.

 

[HumanMech]

Next, fake evil. They say they have evil paths, technically they do, but you try to go down it, you just get early game overs. You release the plague, game just ends. Also sees a variety where you go evil and most of the game just shuts down. NPCs don't talk to you, most quests vanish. Technically a path, but not nearly as developed as the good path.
Has also seen fake evil game where you can dress evil and maybe act evil but when it comes down to it you are going down the exact same path as the good characters, you just look goth doing it.

But he said, that he liked BG3.

 

[ds]

Was the irony of using a pop culture reaction clip in this video intentional? Because that's straight out of the boring derivative youtuber 101 playbook.

 

[NecroLord]

I think Tim is really running out of ideas here.

 

[Bulo]

 

[StrongBelwas]

In response to a question contrasting his Setting----->Story----->Mechanics with Miyazaka's Mechanics----->Setting---->Story.
Obviously, making mechanics first works for some developers.
There isn't one magic bullet to making a game and anyone who says there is is probably trying to sell you something. Cain is just talking about what he discovered worked best for him.
In Cain's experience, he has ideas for tons of mechanics. Books all over his desk of his setting/mechanic/story ideas. Never a shortage of those. He doesn't really just work on a game and see what it makes him think of. Has many mechanic ideas that would not work well together. Some mechanic ideas would require save games to be done a certain way, others would limit certain player builds. Some mechanics he thinks of that do work well together may create a very limiting constraint on the resulting story/settings they would work in. There are a lot of people who want to contribute to what the story and setting is who are not involved with the mechanics creation, you'll end up having to reject a lot of ideas because they don't fit into these mechanics you made at the start.
If you go setting and story before mechanics, artist and story designers can have a say in things about the story and setting with no limitations. If one of your artists really wants to do art deco, what kind of story would be told in that setting?
Hard to go the other direction. When Leonard came up with the 50s art style for Fallout, they were still trying to support all the GURPS generic skills and advantages, that part of mechanics wouldn't be a constraint. When GURPS was replaced, a lot of the mechanics for SPECIAL were influenced by the setting they had thought of at that point. i.e consideration for radiation.
Going setting first lets you pick mechanics from the vast space of possible mechanics. Of course the reverse is true, once you have mechanics settled in you can pick your story, but Cain repeats that it constrains the non-system developers from being able to influence it (And there are far more non-system designers than system designers on your team.)
Rarely feels like someone suggests a setting with zero idea for mechanics, it's more like having dozens of ideas for mechanics and wondering which one to use.
Because you are doing mechanics after setting and story, you pick ones that support and reinforce the setting/story. Automatically makes mechanics feel more coherent. Sometimes you'll play a game and some mechanic will feel out of place. Characters may be surprised about the player speaking with the dead or raising them or healing the blind despite it being a fantasy setting. Cain believes this happened because a mechanic was put in without any consideration for the setting changes or the mechanic came first before the setting.
The people who make mechanics tend to be more left brained.
Finally, more often than not, when publishers first approach you, they ask about the setting first before anything. They may approach you wanting work done in a particular setting. When Troika was asked what game Arcanum was, they said fantasy world undergoing industrial revolution, they didn't start talking about the skill system. For Troika's next two games, the publisher approached them with a setting. Will you do D&D and will you do World of Darkness? For D&D they were asked what module they wanted to do story wise, and mechanic discussion like maybe not being able to implement Bards/Paladins came last. Even if you are making an original IP, they may later bring up mechanics, but most publishers will ask you what you are doing originally or your hook (Which is generally mechanics), that is the closest they come to asking about mechanics most of the time. They may ask for microtransactions or a tutorial level, but Cain considers it a bit outside the scope of system mechanics, it is at the meta level not in-world.

 

[The Wall]

None of what he talks about applies to Outer Worlds, last game he directed. Nothing. It's like catfishing on Tinder. What he talks about game design and development and what he delivers in his games for last 10+ years, nothing aligns

He is great source of information for future Devs who actually want to build RPGs like Troika's and according to Tim's guidelines. Otherwise - it's laughable. Like Genghis Khan having youtube channel and filming videos about consentual sex, love, non-violance and romance

Dude WHERE in Outer Worlds you have applied anything you keep talking about. Braindead Boomer

 

[NecroLord]

Will you do D&D and will you do World of Darkness? For D&D they were asked what module they wanted to do story wise, and mechanic discussion like maybe not being able to implement Bards/Paladins came last.

Good thing they did Temple of Elemental Evil from Greyhawk, and not Forgotten Realms...

 

[Wesp5]

None of what he talks about applies to Outer Worlds, last game he directed. Nothing.

What are you talking about? The Outer Worlds is absolutely an example for when world setting came first, then the story and mechanics last! Which migh explain the bad itemisation and other things...

 

[StrongBelwas]

 

[Gandalf]

Tim said in this video that he went through all of his Fallout notes and will publish an almost 25 minute long video about the The Defenitive Timeline of Fallout Developement on April 5, 2024.
He also said that the video is processing now and he hope you'll like it.

 

[The Wall]

Just on time before Real World's Fallout

 

[NecroLord]

Just on time before Real World's Fallout

Nah.
Fallout is way classier and awesome.
Real world Fallout will be just shit and Hell on Earth, but arguably better than the current Satanic systems and rulers...

 

[__scribbles__]

I talk about my ideas on what features make a game an RPG. Hint: it’s a continuum.

Man, he’s gotta be *really* running out of ideas now

 

[StrongBelwas]

Cain is going to wade into the minefield.
Has always viewed an RPG as a continuum. Especially lately when games are coming out that people say have RPG Mechanics (They never really define what those RPG mechanics are.)
Think of it as a checklist of game features. The more of them you have, the more Cain considers you an RPG. List has an order, but Cain will only give the order when he is done.
First one is, he can make his own character, including naming it. Very important, character creation choices should matter. They shouldn't be super limited, but they should be reflected on in the game. Your class, race, gender, attributes, skills, something in the game should be checking those. Gender could be as basic as changing if people refer to he or she, gender was a bigger deal in some of Cain's games but he thought it was ok as long as it balanced. Some people didn't like that. A lot of games put a lot of effort into character appearance, but if the game doesn't mention that Cain doesn't find it very important. Games of his that did have a lot of appearance features had that because someone else on the team pushed for them.
Once you are playing the character, Cain wants the player character to have a lot of choices on how to make. High level, how you decide to do combat/stealth/dialogue or have companions, or low level (What does your character does moment to moment., do you insult people or try to be nice.)
Third thing is that the story is reacting to your character selection (To a certain degree, doesn't want stuff you decided at the start to dictate too much about the rest) and action in the games.
Fourth thing is nonlinear story. Prefers to do things in the order he wants to do them, go where he wants to go, do what he wants to do. Repeats her prefers player driven story vs. story driven game. Story driven game is a narrative designer dictating to you what happens, doesn't like it. Wants the player to activate the narrative as they come across it.
Fifth, multiple endings. Cain expects different endings, dramatically different endings, ones with his companions and what happened to them.
Leading into story gating and area gating. Wants that based on character choices, not designer choices. Let's say you have a dungeon and you don't want the player going in there right away. Cain is fine with you implementing a key or passphrase the player needs to enter. He is even fine with you not spawning in the NPC the player needs to get the key/passphrase from until a certain point in the game or they are in a very hard to find place. What he doesn't like is if the door hard coded to never open until Act III. Cain has played games recently that he liked where he tried to step onto a continuation of the map and it tells him he can't go there yet because of his level or story act. Would be annoying if he went a door and it said you had to be level 10 before walking in. That is the developer slapping you, wants the restrictions embedded in the story.
Similarly, prefers for perks that have preqeqs be on a skill being a certain level or other perks purchased. Dislikes them being level gated. Is OK with them being gated into tiers and you have to buy a certain number of tier 1 perks to get tier 2 perks, which effectively guarantees some perks can't be taken until a certain level. Again, developer imposing on the player instead of the player choosing. This may sound narrow, but think of it as the player seeing choices they making opening up other options vs. developer dictate.
Wants the world to be big enough to support exploration and player choice, as well as adventures that aren't the main story.
That is Cain's checklist. Have all of those, you are an RPG. Take them off one by one, you become a little less of an RPG. Notice the order Cain went in, Systems -----> Story ----->Setting, the opposite of how he tells you to design games. But this is how game's present themselves most often. You are thrust into character creation, then you start playing and learn what kind of story they are being thrust into. Then as you play the game and begin to discover the setting. You may have heard a game blurb of the setting, but now you walk through it and discover it.
Many people disagree on what an RPG is. Some of it is down to how many things on Cain's checklist the game has. Some people say if it misses one it isn't an RPG, some people are fine with some of them being gone but others being gone are red lines. Some people treat it like Cain does, the more of them you have the more of an RPG you are, and vice versa. Some people weight them differently, maybe choices mattering is very important but making your own character isn't that important to them.
You could call them Hard RPGs, Soft RPGs, hardcore RPGs, casual RPGs, Cain considers it all a continuum. Cain doesn't think you should get too hung up on it, the continuum is rarely as set in stone as you think, references and links his D&D Koan. Making a hard line in the sand for RPGs is doomed to fail.

 

[__scribbles__]

Think of it as a checklist of game features. The more of them you have, the more Cain considers you an RPG.

Edit: Nov 1st, 2016. The conclusion of this thread seems to be that there is no such thing as an RPG, only a collection of RPG elements. This definition is still useful, because those elements can be isolated and catalogued within a relational database, allowing the player to find all games containing a specified set of RPG elements.

 

[__scribbles__]

I talk about fun vs. balance and how some designers want to force players to have their vision of a fun experience. I even try to define fun…and fail.

 

[StrongBelwas]

Nobody will be surprised that Cain prefers fun over balance in any of his games. Nosferatu is harder than the other clans, some people consider magic easier than gunslinging in Arcanum, but those are difficulty, not (un)fun.
Balance is very important in PvP and PvE multiplayer games. In PvE, not fun if another build can have more fun than another because their abilities are more broadly useful or their class is more important. Balance is probably the most important aspect of PvP. In singleplayer, not so much.
People will find ways to be OP and min max their characters, Cain considers that fine. if you can make a character that can kill everything in one hit, cool. Cain finds it cool when people build glass cannons that could do lots of damage but are frail, some people like that challenge. Cain used to play what they called Johnny One Spells in GURPS, a mage who put all of his points into one spell. Maybe you can call an ice explosion spells or Flamejet, but you put all your points into it so it was an excellent spell, never missed, lots of power. Works great until you run into something like a flame elemental, now it's useless.
Gets why people talk about fun vs. balance, but doesn't want to dictate fun to players of single player games. Have fun playing the game, and playing the game is not just exploring the world, it's exploring the mechanics.
On the subject of forcing the fun way, there are some games where a designer thought there was a particular best/fun way to play and they obligated the player to play that way. Hates that of course, does not like forcing the player to play anyway. Why he tries pacifist playthrough, kill everyone even without talking to the, try and make sure you can finish the game no matter your character build. May not be easy, but maybe you find some strange way to have fun, not Cain's purpose to stop you. Can do many things at ToEE, kill Zuggtmoy, team up with her, maybe you were good or you were evil. If you joined Zuggtmoy, and they made a sequel where she was a party member, it would have been unbalanced, but fun and a neat way to end the game.
Back to quest markers, some people hate them, Cain gets that. Some people require them, will move onto the next game if it doesn't have them. Cain also gets that. Cain thinks the best way is to make it optional, some people pointed out that this (And Cain thought this was good to point out) would be harder to playtest (Cain agrees) because now it has to be able to be solved without quest markers, you need information on where to go and have that information logged so you can go back to it. Some games just archive all of the past dialogue and you can go back to that. Cain likes that, but also prefers directly linking the dialogue relevant to the quest like they did in Arcanum. Optional quest markers and very well defined quests seems to be the best solution to be Cain, other solutions are the developer telling the player how to have fun.
What is fun? Hard to define fun, like defining happy. You ask some kids why they are happy, they probably won't know. You ask someone why they are having fun playing a game, they don't know, it's just fun. Cain likes to fall back to the porn definition- Can't define it, knows it when he sees it. Recaps the Supreme Court story where that came from.
Cain has played many games, knows what fun is. Can tell when game is fun, can tell when game is not fun. But he cannot give a shorthand description of fun that the channel's viewers couldn't rip apart. Whatever the lead designer or game director thinks is fun is what is fun in a game. Sometimes fun is from emergent gameplay, where nobody saw it coming.

 

[NecroLord]

If you joined Zuggtmoy, and they made a sequel where she was a party member, it would have been unbalanced, but fun and a neat way to end the game.

Zuggtmoy is a Chaotic Evil Demon Prince of the Abyss...
I don't see how that would've worked out.
Would she honestly team up with a bunch of (admittedly) powerful mortals?
More likely she would turn on them.

 

[ColonelMace]

If you joined Zuggtmoy, and they made a sequel where she was a party member, it would have been unbalanced, but fun and a neat way to end the game.

Zuggtmoy is a Chaotic Evil Demon Prince of the Abyss...
I don't see how that would've worked out.
Would she honestly team up with a bunch of (admittedly) powerful mortals?
More likely she would turn on them.

Sounds fun. Sign me up.

 

[Hellraiser]

Just on time before Real World's Fallout

Nah.
Fallout is way classier and awesome.
Real world Fallout will be just shit and Hell on Earth, but arguably better than the current Satanic systems and rulers...

I would argue it is the other way around, Fallout is quite bleak regarding the scale of the death toll, ecological collapse and how long it takes to rebuild governments and how long anarchy reigns supreme. There's not even a single surviving bumfuck nowhere pre-war town in the first game, it's all "new" built on the ashes of the old world, often by vault dwellers who seem to make up most of the survivors. Hub and Junktown are kind of ambigous on whether vault or non-vault survivors founded/populated them, so it's kind of 50/50, except vaults were not that common in the region so it seems other surivivors needed to be extremely lucky to survive outside of a vault when the bombs fell.

After the early post-nuclear part that will most likely kill you with nukes, radiation, collapse of the medical system, shitty sanitation availability *badum tish*, lack of clean water, famine and the roaming machete rape gangs, IRL Fallout would stabilize into some scavenger steampunk or dieselpunk reality within a decade after famines stop being an issue. To some extent a smaller scale version of that is visible in war-torn or post-war countries, and that's a good source for research both on the technical side and on the social side (I remember reading somewhere that cities are actually the first place to stabilize after ITZ or some other bout of anarchy, it's the sticks where gangs and anarchy last the longest, but of course the city would need to dodge a nuke first in this scenario...).

How long it would take for industry as such to drop the "scavenger" part and be able to build new cars or planes by itself is another topic, but if you consider the timescale of even the first Fallout realistically by that time either almost everyone would be dead from hunger or they would be closer to what the NCR was in Fallout 2 rather than existing as the Junktown/Boneyard/Shady Sands type of early settlement. You would need a very long lasting apocalypse (nuclear mini-ice age lasting decades for instance) and thus a late start of the stabilization period for something like that to happen IRL, and long lasting apocalypse, by which I mean no possibility of growing food, means a likely death-spiral for pockets of survivors (how many decades can you keep scavenging cans of food?).

 

[Shadenuat]

While there is no 1 right way to make rpg, i think quest markers just deconstruct whole roleplaying and game design on fundamental way. World designer doesn't have to make world believable, think how people and things move around, put hints of people activity at places (visually show that is mine, miners live here, goods stored here, etc.) cause jut follow quest marker. No need to think up landmarks and stuff, questmarker. No need to raise questions and make npcs talk about world and directions, just questmarker. No reason to look at world carefully, exercise your perception like real adventurer would, just guestmarjhherrr. No detective work or trying to bridge gaps in quests with your brainmarkerrrrr.

I just played some old average quest in tamriel rebuilt. Find staff for thiaf. I go where it should be but find a guy he says staff moved to city mage guild. I ask city they say caravan with it never arrived. Quest doesn't saywhat do next. So i backtrack and using signposts from ruins to city follow road caravan probably followed and find its remains. With questmarker there would be no need for signposts. And no need for player to come up with their own decisions.

 

[Wesp5]

With questmarker there would be no need for signposts. And no need for player to come up with their own decisions.

Not really. If the game offers an option to turn the questmarker off, like Tim suggested, you still need to have these!