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Can someone summarize to me the appeal of JRPGs?

VonMiskov

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I usually play jrpgs - the classic ones or classic-like with turn based combat or atb for it's simplicity. They don't really need any major effort. Most of them have straight forward story that you just click through, no choices, corridor like structure. Truly retarded but I can play some and put it down. Get back after few months and while not really needing to remember what I had to do.
Also a big part for me is monster design and boss design that western rpgs lack. I enjoy some of that sweet japanese bodyhorror. While in regular rpgs it's mostly regular fantasy shit like goblins and dragons for normies and Tolkien-boys.
 
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scytheavatar

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What's the appeal of eurojank rpg like Gothic and Kingdom Come: Deliverance? Because they can give experiences that you can't get from Bioware. The same goes for JRPGs.
 

Grampy_Bone

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My answer to this question is that JRPGs tend to have more innovative combat, leveling, and progression mechanics than western games. I don't think it's a coincidence that the "Kickstarter Renaissance" cRPGs that tried to do traditional gameplay (Pillars, Wasteland 2/3) or simplified (BT4, Numanera) did worse than the ones that produced more innovative combat systems (Div OS 1/2) or complex build mechanics (Pathfinder).

-Western RPGs mostly pursue simplification and streamlining, pushing for graphical fidelity and voiced cutscenes over gameplay. Meanwhile most JRPG studios focus on gameplay and content, and just do the best graphics they can without hurting the gameplay.

-Western devs pursue the eternal white whale of cRPGs: story reactivity. This is something computer games will never really be good at, works against all the strengths of the medium, and requires cost-prohibitive dev resources that provide poor return on investment.

-Western devs all want to make a movie or a novel, not a video game.*(see postscript)

-Western games almost all use some variation on skill points, feats/perks, or the Diablo 2 skill tree. Western devs tried to copy the cinematic style of Final Fantasy but never seemed to think to copy the job system.

-Western devs never figured out real-time, party-based RPG combat, instead resorting to repetitive mashing w/ one character (Diablo), kludgey pause systems, or just making First Person Shooters.

-Western devs rarely think outside the box, and when they do it's usually Deckbuilding, Soulslike, Metroid, or adding experience levels to some other genre like RTS or Bejeweled.

-JRPGs embrace combat and leveling instead of treating it like an afterthought or something to be minimized and avoided.


*PS: I'll follow up on this because I think it bears further explanation and might ruffle some feathers; most people would say JRPGs are linear, narrative-focused games, so how can I say they care more about gameplay than story?

The answer is that JRPG storytelling is focused on the gameplay experience of being a cool fantasy hero or whatever. To such extent these games are story-driven is to provide the player with the escapism of being an adventurer in a fantastic world. It's like a stock scene in a movie. In a superhero film, the hero and the villain always have a scene where they explain their moral worldview to each other. Then they start punching. It's expected. Or in a spy movie, the hero always gets captured and escapes at some point. Standard genre trope.

Fantasy adventure stories need towns in distress and evil wizards and eccentric characters who come together to save the world. It's part of the experience, so JRPGs deliver it. Western devs have to make the story about some personal hobbyhorse, cynical deconstruction, or philosophical mumbo jumbo. They don't write the stories to support the gameplay experience, they are trying to insert a novel into a semi-related video game. Western devs think experiencing a story is worth playing the game for, while JRPG devs know better.

While not a JRPG dev, I recall reading an interview with Hideo Kojima many years ago in relation to the MGS series. One of the questions he was asked was "Why story was so important to the MGS games?" Kojima responded that "It wasn't." He said the MGS games are about a lone agent infiltrating a military compound, and the story exists to support that experience. That's it.

For the record, I think there is one western company that learned this lesson and used it to great success: Bioware. The way Mass Effect was made, people thought it was about deep story, lore, and choices, but all that stuff really existed for was to deliver the gameplay experience of being Captain of the Space Opera Adventure. But then they hired too many writers and made the mistake of thinking people were there for the story itself, and not the whole experience.
 

anvi

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My answer to this question is that JRPGs tend to have more innovative combat, leveling, and progression mechanics than western games. I don't think it's a coincidence that the "Kickstarter Renaissance" cRPGs that tried to do traditional gameplay (Pillars, Wasteland 2/3) or simplified (BT4, Numanera) did worse than the ones that produced more innovative combat systems (Div OS 1/2) or complex build mechanics (Pathfinder).

-Western RPGs mostly pursue simplification and streamlining, pushing for graphical fidelity and voiced cutscenes over gameplay. Meanwhile most JRPG studios focus on gameplay and content, and just do the best graphics they can without hurting the gameplay.

-Western devs pursue the eternal white whale of cRPGs: story reactivity. This is something computer games will never really be good at, works against all the strengths of the medium, and requires cost-prohibitive dev resources that provide poor return on investment.

-Western devs all want to make a movie or a novel, not a video game.*(see postscript)

-Western games almost all use some variation on skill points, feats/perks, or the Diablo 2 skill tree. Western devs tried to copy the cinematic style of Final Fantasy but never seemed to think to copy the job system.

-Western devs never figured out real-time, party-based RPG combat, instead resorting to repetitive mashing w/ one character (Diablo), kludgey pause systems, or just making First Person Shooters.

-Western devs rarely think outside the box, and when they do it's usually Deckbuilding, Soulslike, Metroid, or adding experience levels to some other genre like RTS or Bejeweled.

-JRPGs embrace combat and leveling instead of treating it like an afterthought or something to be minimized and avoided.


*PS: I'll follow up on this because I think it bears further explanation and might ruffle some feathers; most people would say JRPGs are linear, narrative-focused games, so how can I say they care more about gameplay than story?

The answer is that JRPG storytelling is focused on the gameplay experience of being a cool fantasy hero or whatever. To such extent these games are story-driven is to provide the player with the escapism of being an adventurer in a fantastic world. It's like a stock scene in a movie. In a superhero film, the hero and the villain always have a scene where they explain their moral worldview to each other. Then they start punching. It's expected. Or in a spy movie, the hero always gets captured and escapes at some point. Standard genre trope.

Fantasy adventure stories need towns in distress and evil wizards and eccentric characters who come together to save the world. It's part of the experience, so JRPGs deliver it. Western devs have to make the story about some personal hobbyhorse, cynical deconstruction, or philosophical mumbo jumbo. They don't write the stories to support the gameplay experience, they are trying to insert a novel into a semi-related video game. Western devs think experiencing a story is worth playing the game for, while JRPG devs know better.

While not a JRPG dev, I recall reading an interview with Hideo Kojima many years ago in relation to the MGS series. One of the questions he was asked was "Why story was so important to the MGS games?" Kojima responded that "It wasn't." He said the MGS games are about a lone agent infiltrating a military compound, and the story exists to support that experience. That's it.

For the record, I think there is one western company that learned this lesson and used it to great success: Bioware. The way Mass Effect was made, people thought it was about deep story, lore, and choices, but all that stuff really existed for was to deliver the gameplay experience of being Captain of the Space Opera Adventure. But then they hired too many writers and made the mistake of thinking people were there for the story itself, and not the whole experience.
What are some JRPGs with good combat and character building and minimal story?
 

Grampy_Bone

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What are some JRPGs with good combat and character building and minimal story?
SMT 3/4/5, Digital Devil Saga, Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song, Etrian Odyssey (Any), Shadow Tower Abyss, or Metal Saga/Metal Max games.

There's also the question of what you mean by 'minimal,' Valkyrie Profile and Octopath Traveler are like 10% main quest, 90% side quests, but the side stories are pretty lengthy.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Do players in western or eastern rpgs prefer preset protags or create your own? For some, this makes or breaks the game. Some hate cutscenes with actions they feel trapped into rather than a more free agency. Then again, true free agency to do what you want just might not have been possible in older games but newer games seem to try and break these barriers a little.

I really don’t mind either way. I hate games that are censored from the original. I like good translations to English that flow well. I wish more older games were translated and newer ones were considered for English audiences.
 

Damned Registrations

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What are some JRPGs with good combat and character building and minimal story?
Crystal Project and Monster Sanctuary, though they both also involve some platforming in between combat. The combat and character building are top tier in both games, in completely different styles. Both have a very, very heavy focus on exploration, with a ton of very rewarding secrets, nonlinear path through the game, and no handholding. Crystal Project in particular is a masterclass of open world design; it'd still be a great game even if the combat was total ass, so the fact that it's got excellent combat with perfect information (You can see all enemy stats and their intents for the turn in battle, so it's akin to playing assymmetrical chess) and incredible variety in both enemy and potential party design really puts it over the top. I think it's my favourite game of all time, though I'm biased towards exploration.

If your definition of JRPG is 'made by Japanese devs' rather than the classic style of turn based combat with a row of party members, then Labyrinth of Touhou 2. It's basically dungeon crawling blobber crack. Your party consists of 12 characters rotatating through a 4 person front line, selected from a roster of ~50 unique characters with wildly different uses. Combat has a lot of variety; some fights will be all about status effect, buffs, debuffs, alpha strikes, staying power, exploiting elemental weaknesses or resistances or some combination of the above or unique gimmicks. Selecting the right team to handle a fight is like crafting a key to fit a lock and there are many ways to go about it. Absolute top tier combat imo.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Funny I never gave the Romancing Saga a try. Maybe the only one I ever saw in a USA catalog started with 3 or 4 so I said meh. I don’t even know if 1-2 is the start or on NES/famicom. They’d possibly be english romhacks by now. I’m not even sure that’s the same thing now. ROTK is a TBS game so maybe there is another game using Romancing I am unaware of.
Romance of the Three Kingdoms Series

Lessee
Romancing Saga Series

Well, I never heard of it so damn. New to me now.
 
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KeighnMcDeath

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I thought Digital Devil was a blobber. I think Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei gets confused with Digital Devil SaGa.
 

Grampy_Bone

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I think it really bears examination how creatively bankrupt western RPGs are when it comes to leveling mechanics. Most games just do not try to innovate along these lines.

Fallout 1,2: Skill points and feats
Wasteland 2,3: skill points and feats
Numanera: skill points
Bard's Tale 4: Diablo 2 skill tree
Pillars 1,2: Skill points and feats
Underrail: skill points and feats (+ optional exploration-based leveling system)
Jagged Alliance 3: Skill points and feats
Grimoire: Skill points + class changing
Wizardry 6-7-8: Skill points + class changing
Wizards and Warriors: Skill points + class changing
Planescape: Stat points and class changing (admittedly in a system that normally does not allow this)
Might and Magic 6-10: Skill points
Starcrawlers: Diablo 2 skill tree
Colony Ship: skill points and feats
Witcher 1,2,3 + Cyperpunk: Diablo 2 skill tree
Piranha Bytes (8!) games: Stat and skill points + feats
Assassin's Creed wannabe RPGs Origins and Odyssey: Diablo 2 skill tree
Bethesda games: Skill points (Daggerfall, morrrowind), then skill points and feats (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas), then just feats (Skyrim, Fallout 4, Fallout 76, Starfield) --- ES games earn skill points by direct use vs traditional levels though.
Bioware: D&D with either basic leveling (BG1&2) or skill points and feats (NWN & Kotor 1,2), Stat points and feats (Dragon Age), Diablo 2 skill tree (Dragon age 2, 3), Skill points (Mass effect 1,2,3)
Alpha Protocol: Skill points and feats
Vampire The Masquerade: Skill points
Borderlands (all): Diablo 2 skill tree
Avernum series: Diablo 2 skill tree and feats
Spiders (Technomancer, Greedfall): Skill points and feats

Uncommon exceptions:
Divinity OS 1,2: Stat points + skill vendors. (still pretty basic, but at least it's different)
Path of Exile: No feats or Diablo 2 skill tree. Instead a mix of FF10's sphere grid and FF7's materia systems.
Horizon's Gate/Voidspire: XP used to purchase upgrades + class changing and mixing (inspired by FFTactics)

Some of these games innovate in other ways, such as Underrail's extensive crafting system, or having a learn-by-doing skill axis besides straight levels. But by and large they are not even trying.
 

luj1

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I think after 5 pages I can say that people seem to like 1) the simplicity of these games and 2) their relaxing tone/stories. Sure Ogre Tactics has amazing combat but most of them don't.
 

Vic

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play dragon warrior 1 to understand what JRPGs are about. You grind, grind, grind, to be able to kill stronger monsters and grind more to kill even stronger monsters. That's the appeal of JPRGs and also MMOs.

images
 

Vic

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what does
meh.png
mean? I've played a few SRPGs and I thought the Tactics Ogre remake had good combat, granted I'm not an expert but it beats most other games I've played, except for Fire Emblem.
 

Reinhardt

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You grind, grind, grind, to be able to kill stronger monsters and grind more to kill even stronger monsters. That's the appeal of JPRGs and also MMOs.
or you just utilize your team properly and do it without grind.
 

Vic

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You grind, grind, grind, to be able to kill stronger monsters and grind more to kill even stronger monsters. That's the appeal of JPRGs and also MMOs.
or you just utilize your team properly and do it without grind.
there is no such thing as a JRPG without grind, you might think you're not grinding while you go from point A to point B following the story and fighting all those monsters, but that's exactly what you're doing.

The basic formula hasn't changed since Dragon Warrior 1, it's still, for the most part, a shonen power fantasy. Nowadays they just use more story as the carrot to the, for the most part, mindless combat encounters.
 

Reinhardt

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You grind, grind, grind, to be able to kill stronger monsters and grind more to kill even stronger monsters. That's the appeal of JPRGs and also MMOs.
or you just utilize your team properly and do it without grind.
there is no such thing as a JRPG without grind, you might think you're not grinding while you go from point A to point B following the story, but that's exactly what you're doing.
nigga, it's not starfield thread.
 

Damned Registrations

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Ogre Tactics is far from the gold standard of combat and encounter design in an SRPG.
isn't it one of the better ones?
There are a lot of people who would say so... but no, not really. It's got a lot of stats and fancy systems, but like so many jrpgs, a ton of it ends up being meaningless due to balance issues. FFT is far more interesting, honestly. It has broken things as well, but it has MANY broken things that are in conflict with eachother. There are about half a dozen insanely overpowered defensive skills for exampke, all vying for space on the same slot. Each has it's pros and cons, and each is wildly overkill for simply beating the game under normal circumstances. Active skills are in a similar situation, though Math is pretty much the undisputed king there with enough investment; again there are quite a few incredibly powerful options vying for second place. Support skills, movement skills, equipment slots... the game gives you many avenues to win in wildly different ways. The way it handles spellcasting (and some other interesting abilities) is a lot better too, with actual cast times rather than a recovery window, letting you set up crazy things like delayed attacks on a position, or on the flip side, sniping a spell caster while he's still chanting to prevent the spell from going off.

Tactics Ogre ends up mostly being about comparing a pair of numbers and making sure yours is bigger. The remake added support skills and more actions for fighters instead of just mages, but ultimately most of it is just chaff and you end up making one or two real choices on a character. That gets reflected in the kinds of threats you face. In FFT, the biggest threats are enemies with strange skills you didn't prepare for; in TO the biggest threat is always an enemy with really high stats.

Troubleshooter, though korean rather than japanese, is probably the peak of this sort of gameplay. Wildly complex game, factoring in things like terrain and weather and lighting, with unique classes for each character and massive battles than ensure it's impractical to just have one ace take everyone down or a squad of identical, optimal builds. The character builds involving slotting in potentially dozens of skills at once on a single character, with extra skills unlocked through combinations slotted at once. It's munchkin heaven. The actual combat operates on a much larger scale, but flows quickly past minor enemies without wasting your time, giving a purpose for both crowd control type builds that specialize in many targets, and those specialized in taking down an elite enemy. Lots of other aspects to build towards too, such as recon (which isn't even a factor in most games) various types of support, tanking hits, extreme range or mobility, taking turns more quickly, and more.

The newer Brigandine game, Runersia, is another interesting SRPG. Very different from the above 3, it involves commanders and minions, minions which can easily die permanently in battle. Rather than designed encounters (though it has some of those as well in the endgame) you pick and choose conflicts based on the way the war is going on the strategic layer, looking for fights to train up your own units or pick off or even steal powerful enemy monsters. I'd rate it pretty highly overall, though it can feel like a slog at times depending on how the strategy layer is going. It's also got a multiclassing based system for leveling up the commanders. Somewhat shallow, but that's a requirement when you're potentially actively using 15+ characters at a time.

On the other end of the scale, I'd rate something like Fire Emblem pretty low. Haven't played any of the modern ones, but the older ones are quite simplistic, mostly relying on cheap ambushes and scenario gimmicks to provide a challenge when you can otherwise wipe out an entire map of 30+ dudes using like 3 of your own.

there is no such thing as a JRPG without grind, you might think you're not grinding while you go from point A to point B following the story, but that's exactly what you're doing.
Or you could just... not fight those battles. Most JRPGs include ways to reliably avoid combat for a reason. Those that don't generally have an element of attrition factored into the difficulty.
 

Vic

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Troubleshooter, though korean rather than japanese, is probably the peak of this sort of gameplay. Wildly complex game, factoring in things like terrain and weather and lighting, with unique classes for each character and massive battles than ensure it's impractical to just have one ace take everyone down or a squad of identical, optimal builds. The character builds involving slotting in potentially dozens of skills at once on a single character, with extra skills unlocked through combinations slotted at once. It's munchkin heaven. The actual combat operates on a much larger scale, but flows quickly past minor enemies without wasting your time, giving a purpose for both crowd control type builds that specialize in many targets, and those specialized in taking down an elite enemy. Lots of other aspects to build towards too, such as recon (which isn't even a factor in most games) various types of support, tanking hits, extreme range or mobility, taking turns more quickly, and more.

The newer Brigandine game, Runersia, is another interesting SRPG. Very different from the above 3, it involves commanders and minions, minions which can easily die permanently in battle. Rather than designed encounters (though it has some of those as well in the endgame) you pick and choose conflicts based on the way the war is going on the strategic layer, looking for fights to train up your own units or pick off or even steal powerful enemy monsters. I'd rate it pretty highly overall, though it can feel like a slog at times depending on how the strategy layer is going. It's also got a multiclassing based system for leveling up the commanders. Somewhat shallow, but that's a requirement when you're potentially actively using 15+ characters at a time.
cool but these games are quite different from what I had in mind. First one has XCOM combat and Brigandine is straight up strategy and not RPG.
 

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