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CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

Gargaune

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Number one reason was they were upgrading their engine and at the same time making the game. One of the devs in Schreier's interview said they were literally laying down tracks for a train going in high speed few meters back. It's the same reason GTA IV and AC: Unity were such crap and why sequels using same tech with little lifting are generally good.
That's not unusual in and of itself. Yes, a major platform evolution is obviously a higher risk than a minor version iteration, but it's fairly common practice for game developers using their own in-house engine. CDPR wasn't going to go "okay, first we're gonna make RED Engine 4, then we're gonna make Cyberpunk 2077 on what we get", they're not a middleware company like Epic became, the engine was always gonna be built for and during CBP's development.

Number two, key people left after management denied them promotions and/or raises. Don't know if they have left any documentation but judging by how messed up spaghetti code CP2077 is I think they did not. So key staff resposible for Twitcher success left.
You guys need to stop using "spaghetti code" to mean "inefficient code" or, worse, "code that doesn't do what I think it should do", they're not synonyms. For all we know, CBP's codebase could be a pristine example of good coding practices, it might just not be best suited to support the game experience we wanted. The game's problems are core design and performance scalability, speculating on code structure is gratuitous.

Number three is tied to number two. Lack of communication, documentation and version control. I remember the last delay CDPR announced was also the one the developers learned from Twitter. Yes, they weren't notified beforehand, not even from an email. They had to check social media channels targeted at their customers. This also somewhat explains the lies, the marketing didn't know what the hell developers were doing and at the same time developers didn't know what they should be doing. And management thought it is all fine.
Yep. That's bad. Very bad.

Number four, from third person fantasy game about sword fighting in slavlands they have decided to do first person shooter in futuristic mega city with hacking and sneaking. It's like asking Maxis to make next FIFA or Need for Speed when all they knew was how to make household and city sims.
Not exactly, in that yes, CDPR obviously didn't fully grasp the expectations they'd incur with Cyberpunk 2077 relative to The Witcher 3, that's the heart of the issue, but that's not to say that a developer can't successfully switch tracks like that. For example, Creative Assembly's Total War had far less common ground with Alien: Isolation and yet the results speak for themselves. I am a fan of specialisation, but it's not a hard limitation, and The Witcher 3 to Cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't have been a bridge too far if CDPR had fully appreciated the former's design limitations in porting to the latter.
 

Perkel

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Why people keep talking as if C77 performs horribly ? It is one of the best looking games and only problem with it is that CDPR overshot old consoles spec especially in therms of SSD vs HDD.
 

Gerrard

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CDPR keeps lying about the game even after release.

https://gameworldobserver.com/2021/...lements-in-cyberpunk-2077-it-was-a-fking-hell
CD Projekt on creating nonlinear gameplay elements in Cyberpunk 2077: “It was a f**king hell”


CD Projekt RED developers have discussed the process of creating nonlinear gameplay in Cyberpunk 2077. They explained why variability is not always great for a huge game like this, as the team had to spend too much resources on small elements.

Quest director Paweł Sasko addressed the issue during his latest stream on Twitch (via GRY-OnLine.pl), where he usually plays Cyberpunk 2077 and answers the community’s questions.

This time, he invited CD Projekt RED lead quest designer Philipp Weber as a special guest.

Webber cited a quest, where a player has to accompany Takemura on the way to fixer Wakako Okada, as an example of the nonlinear problem. During the mission, you could sit in Takemura’s car and drive to Wakako together, or you could go there on your own, or you could even decline and do nothing.

While these options might seem minor, they all have their own little consequences, including some changes in NPCs’ behavior. So designers had to spend a lot of time and resources to simply work through all these variations, which eventually turned into a real hell, considering a number of quests in Cyberpunk 2077.

“Now we would find a more optimized way to do it, so we don’t spend our resources where it doesn’t really matter,” Webber said. “This, in the grand scheme of things, isn’t as important. But since we were learning while doing it, this became a very, very complicated thing for us to actually do.”

“Yeah, it was a f**king hell,” Sasko concluded.

Considering this experience, CD Projekt now understands that there is no need to add nonlinear options to every small mission as the studio could have spent all this time on more global quests or other elements of Cyberpunk 2077 instead.
 

typical user

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You guys need to stop using "spaghetti code" to mean "inefficient code" or, worse, "code that doesn't do what I think it should do", they're not synonyms. For all we know, CBP's codebase could be a pristine example of good coding practices, it might just not be best suited to support the game experience we wanted. The game's problems are core design and performance scalability, speculating on code structure is gratuitous.

But it is spaghetti code. Miles Tost on patch 1.3 reveal stream said "it is hard fixing bugs, because you change one variable in the system and suddenly everything breaks". If the code was pristine we would see more rapid development and comments like these wouldn't be a thing.
 

Perkel

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But it is spaghetti code. Miles Tost on patch 1.3 reveal stream said "it is hard fixing bugs, because you change one variable in the system and suddenly everything breaks". If the code was pristine we would see more rapid development and comments like these wouldn't be a thing.


Yes and it would be great if everyone was nice and no wars would happen. Your perfect pristine code doesn't exist outside of some nerd hello world code. Again, you attribute "spagetti code" to some gameplay problems.

Those hardly have anything to do with coding and more to do with design.

Take for an example lack of a huge range of NPC interactions. They just didn't care. It was not GTA game for them. They assumed player will hunt those quests instead and so on. GTA games have to create a lot of npcs stuff because there isn't anything beside it in their games.

It has nothing to do with codebase.
 

AwesomeButton

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They briefly considered making a game instead of an interactive movie, but the amount of work on reactivity this would entail boggled their minds and they got back to making an interactive movie.
 

Gargaune

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Webber cited a quest, where a player has to accompany Takemura on the way to fixer Wakako Okada, as an example of the nonlinear problem. During the mission, you could sit in Takemura’s car and drive to Wakako together, or you could go there on your own, or you could even decline and do nothing.

While these options might seem minor, they all have their own little consequences, including some changes in NPCs’ behavior. So designers had to spend a lot of time and resources to simply work through all these variations, which eventually turned into a real hell, considering a number of quests in Cyberpunk 2077.
Wait, game designers have to... design games? Oh, the humanity.

But it is spaghetti code. Miles Tost on patch 1.3 reveal stream said "it is hard fixing bugs, because you change one variable in the system and suddenly everything breaks". If the code was pristine we would see more rapid development and comments like these wouldn't be a thing.
Well, if Miles Tost said it and his programmers didn't string him up by his own shoelaces, I guess it must be true and I stand corrected. Although Cyberpunk's patch cycle hasn't been particularly marred by the sort of regressions that would make me suspect an uncooperative code structure, like how Pathfinder: Kingmaker or NWN EE have suffered, though I suppose you could chalk that up to QA picking up the slack. But Perkel's right from where I'm sitting, the game's problems aren't "unfixed bugs", but a disappointing core design which couldn't be addressed at this point in the product's lifecycle anyway.
 

Bliblablubb

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Webber cited a quest, where a player has to accompany Takemura on the way to fixer Wakako Okada, as an example of the nonlinear problem. During the mission, you could sit in Takemura’s car and drive to Wakako together, or you could go there on your own, or you could even decline and do nothing.

Okay seriously, if you cite THAT as an example how hard quest design is, you should find another job. Honestly.

If you join Takemura, the car drives there on rails and he just beelines for Wakako in his "I got hemorroids" walking animation.
You don't join him? He gets spawned in front of the shop and an NPC says two lines if you approach.
You ignore him? Same as above, but you get a reminder text from him after a while.
That is "fucking hell" to you?

How did CDPR even manage to do Twitcher 3 if that was already a strain to their developer's skills? :hahano:

The guy sounds like a 16 yo kid on the first day of his very first job after carrying a box of feathers.

Oh and as a reminder of their mad skills: even in 1.31 living Brick still gets a memorial plaque at the cementary instead of Evelyn.
ONE. FUCKING. VARIABLE.
 
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Caim

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If you join Takemura, the car drives there on rails and he just beelines for Wakako in his "I got hemorroids" walking animation.
You don't join him? He gets spawned in front of the shop and an NPC says two lines if you approach.
You ignore him? Same as above, but you get a reminder text from him after a while.
That is "fucking hell" to you
Sounds like Fallout 4 quest choices, with the options being Yes, Sarcasm (Yes), Ask Question (Yes) and No (Yes).
 

mediocrepoet

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If you join Takemura, the car drives there on rails and he just beelines for Wakako in his "I got hemorroids" walking animation.
You don't join him? He gets spawned in front of the shop and an NPC says two lines if you approach.
You ignore him? Same as above, but you get a reminder text from him after a while.
That is "fucking hell" to you
Sounds like Fallout 4 quest choices, with the options being Yes, Sarcasm (Yes), Ask Question (Yes) and No (Yes).

Sounds like Industrial Espionage to me. Someone stole Bioware's playbook!
 

typical user

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Yes and it would be great if everyone was nice and no wars would happen. Your perfect pristine code doesn't exist outside of some nerd hello world code. Again, you attribute "spagetti code" to some gameplay problems.

There is a term called tech debt. I attributed the messy code to gameplay (or to general state of the game) because there is no other reason why they had to cut so many things and have only placeholder mechanics like cops spawning behind player. They had to delay the game 3 times to fix bugs and after 12 months from release we didn't get anything substantial. If the source code is hard to maintain then adding new stuff can be just as problematic. If traffic spawnpoints and navmeshes are hardcoded instead of placed down in map editor then I guess AI rework (law response using aircraft and gangs chasing player with cars) won't happen. Ever.

The design decisions like UX, quests and open world activities were copied from Witcher to save time when they realized stuff that was promised won't be made anytime soon.
 

Justicar

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For a total flop it's still selling very good jabronis :lol::lol::lol:

Top 1 spot on steam and gog.

https://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=win&filter=globaltopsellers

https://af.gog.com/games?page=1&sort=popularity&as=1649904300

Recent reviews on steam jumped to 83% positive :lol:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1091500/Cyberpunk_2077/

Im 100% sure when they release expansions and next gen version gaymers will forgive them and start shilling cyberpunk redemption story :hahano::hahano: especially if other big gayme developers will fuck up their games like Rockstars did with Gta remaster and Ea did with new battlefield.
 

Gargaune

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There is a term called tech debt. I attributed the messy code to gameplay (or to general state of the game) because there is no other reason why they had to cut so many things and have only placeholder mechanics like cops spawning behind player. They had to delay the game 3 times to fix bugs and after 12 months from release we didn't get anything substantial.
Ineffective time management, unrealistic design goals, good ol' scope creep, excessively quick staffing, that rumoured internal midway reboot, remote work under the Coronavirus pandemic etc. - there's myriad other reasons development might've gone tits up. Don't read too much into a throwaway comment from Tost and also consider that you've got a designer quoted a few posts up complaining about how designing reactivity was "fucking hell" with the example of whether you take a drive with Takemura or not... I seriously doubt the code is to blame there.

The crux of the matter is that if we entertain this notion that CBP's state is mainly due to an unmanageable codebase, you'd assume that more time to clean up would've resulted in a substantially better game. But I don't believe that's the case. More time would've helped, sure, but I doubt the fundamentals of CBP's lackluster gameplay would've changed much - e.g. it ain't "spaghetti code" that stopped CDPR making a meaningful perks system or proper itemisation.

As to the dubious post-release lull, I think we'll get a better idea when the "next gen" edition comes out. If your suspicions are right, this extra development time should result in a material improvement to gameplay quality. If I'm right... it won't.
 
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Nikanuur

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Yes and it would be great if everyone was nice and no wars would happen. Your perfect pristine code doesn't exist outside of some nerd hello world code. Again, you attribute "spagetti code" to some gameplay problems.

There is a term called tech debt. I attributed the messy code to gameplay (or to general state of the game) because there is no other reason why they had to cut so many things and have only placeholder mechanics like cops spawning behind player. They had to delay the game 3 times to fix bugs and after 12 months from release we didn't get anything substantial. If the source code is hard to maintain then adding new stuff can be just as problematic. If traffic spawnpoints and navmeshes are hardcoded instead of placed down in map editor then I guess AI rework (law response using aircraft and gangs chasing player with cars) won't happen. Ever.

The design decisions like UX, quests and open world activities were copied from Witcher to save time when they realized stuff that was promised won't be made anytime soon.
I actually thought that they've actually (quite strangely) failed at at least copying the world's activities and much less quests from the W3, thus creating the exact opposite of the once-dreamt bigger, better game than the said?
 

Grunker

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Do Witcher 1 on a shoestring budget yet almost every quest branches in some way: flex

Do Witcher 2 with less content but more narrative branching and one of the biggest forks in gaming: it ain't no thing brah

Do Witcher 3 which is basically a GTA/C&C hybrid, shame Grunker's prediction that this will kill any narrative branching and thus annihilate the only worthwhile part of the Witcher-series: yeah you know we poles we pay slave wages we can build this shit you dumb danish cunt

Do Witcher 3 with guns: HOLY SHIT WHAT IS THIS BRANCHING QUEST DESIGN THIS CANNOT BE DONE IT IS SURELY HELL
 
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Tyrr

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They did the branching quest design in chapter 1. That quest in the factory where you have to buy the robot/drone was very well done. (you know, the only one they always showed people before release)

After that money, time and/or ambition run out for the rest of the game.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
They did the branching quest design in chapter 1. That quest in the factory where you have to buy the robot/drone was very well done. (you know, the only one they always showed people before release)

After that money, time and/or ambition run out for the rest of the game.
the missions with Jackie were mostly really good.
Afterwards, the game takes a noticeable nosedive in quality.
 

Gargaune

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They did the branching quest design in chapter 1. That quest in the factory where you have to buy the robot/drone was very well done. (you know, the only one they always showed people before release)

After that money, time and/or ambition run out for the rest of the game.
That one quest and the game's finale, they deserve some credit for that too. The various ending quests play out differently enough, taking up Hanako's offer or trusting Johnny with Rogue, with the side option of going solo, and I didn't even get Aldelcados option. Plus the choice to bail early. You've got a nice mix of prior and on-the-spot decisions opening up different narrative and gameplay segments, not just a ending slides.

Everything else in between, well... click button, receive Heartfelt Cinematic Moment™.
 

Grunker

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I haven't played Cyberpunk so I have no clue if it has branching quests. I'm adressing the fact that the amount of work needed for branching was apparantly a complete surprise to a company that made three games whose only worthwhile feature was a good amount of branching and C&C - the last one being just as open worlds as Cyberpunk
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
if you want to understand where they went wrong, compare the length of these videos



cyberpunk has nearly as many people credited as a producer as witcher has for the entire design team
 

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