Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
It seems kind of ironic to criticize 2077 for being too political given that one of its core issues, as rusty_shackleford has also mentioned, is it that it is way too politically bland - almost to the point of being apolitical - for a Cyberpunk game (an inherently political genre). It really does feel like the new Deus Exs in the way that it sets up a handful of political themes but then refuses to comment on them (to a further degree than "bad things are bad"). Even Johnny Silverhand, the game's eponymous superhero terrorist anti-corper, rarely says anything other than lines to the effect of "corps are bad", he doesn't elaborate as to why, describe at length his political ideals or anything of that sort. The same goes for the wider game itself - it almost never makes concrete comments about the politics of its world. There are three long, entire quest lines in a game with very few of them in general that revolve around Night City's mayoral issues, during which you help solve political coups and unveil political conspiracies.

Guess what: literally at no point do actual politics get involved in motivations, dicussions or backdrop. Politicians are described in terms of their job and their character - not their ideas.

So what you're left with is a game whose entire setting screams politics, and where two of the three starting backgrounds for your character have deep roots in this political make-up, but where the game almost entirely focuses on all these aspects as cultural phenomena.

It's the exact same thing with identity politics. You have a game where you can literally put a cock on your female character and that CONSTANTLY explores the huge posibility space for sexuality in a world where you can heavily modify your own body by having entire factions and a huuuuge swath of locations built around that concept, but besides the cultural and aesthetic expressions of it, it doesn't really go into any thematic discussions or storytelling related to those things. So sexuality is something the game throws into your face at every turn, but it's just there as dressing.

For instance, there's a quest where a guy suspects his wife of cheating, and it turns out she didn't: she was just doing doctor check-ups because she made herself prettier with implants before she met her husband and didn't tell him. Boring. You could have done so much with that - somone completely, physically altering themselves and their partner realizing this and coming to terms with whether he or she is fine with that or can't let it go that beneath the chrome is someone else. But no, she essentially just underwent plastic surgery before meeting him. What if she had been someone else entirely before their meeting instead?

Cyberpunk 2077 almost reduces politics to aesthetics in the way it refuses to engage with it.

It really is quite bizarre.
 
Last edited:

Takamori

Learned
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
908
It seems kind of ironic to criticize 2077 for being too political given that one of its core issues, as rusty_shackleford has also mentioned, is it that it is way too politically bland - almost to the point of being apolitical - for a Cyberpunk game (an inherently political genre). It really does feel like the new Deus Exs in the way that it sets up a handful of political themes but then refuses to comment on them (to a further degree than "bad things are bad"). Even Johnny Silverhand, the game's eponymous superhero terrorist anti-corper, rarely says anything other than lines to the effect of "corps are bad", he doesn't elaborate as to why, describe at length his political ideals or anything of that sort. The same goes for the wider game itself - it almost never makes concrete comments about the politics of its world. There are three long, entire quest lines in a game with very few of them in general that revolve around Night City's mayoral issues, during which you help solve political coups and unveil political conspiracies.

Guess what: literally at no point do actual politics get involved in motivations, dicussions or backdrop. Politicians are described in terms of their job and their character - not their ideas.

So what you're left with is a game whose entire setting screams politics, and where two of the three starting backgrounds for your character have deep roots in this political make-up, but where the game almost entirely focuses on all these aspects as cultural phenomena.

It's the exact same thing with identity politics. You have a game where you can literally put a cock on your female character and that CONSTANTLY explores the huge posibility space for sexuality in a world where you can heavily modify your own body by having entire factions and a huuuuge swath of locations built around that concept, but besides the cultural and aesthetic expressions of it, it doesn't really go into any thematic discussions or storytelling related to those things. So sexuality is something the game throws into your face at every turn, but it's just there as dressing.

For instance, there's a quest where a guy suspects his wife of cheating, and it turns out she didn't: she was just doing doctor check-ups because she made herself prettier with implants before she met her husband and didn't tell him. Boring. You could have done so much with that - somone completely, physically altering themselves and their partner realizing this and coming to terms with whether he or she is fine with that or can't let it go that beneath the chrome is someone else. But no, she essentially just underwent plastic surgery before meeting him. What if she had been someone else entirely before their meeting instead?

Cyberpunk 2077 almost reduces politics to aesthetics in the way it refuses to engage with it.

It really is quite bizarre.
Agree with you, its just spreadsheet politic check mark, ok X issue is popular with zoomers put in there and call it a day. Thats why I don't understand the anger towards CDK going Woke, when at "worst" they put a trans flag in a pickup and basically said that chick used to be a dude now go pod racing.

Its like that quest in TW3 in Blood and Wine I think? Were Geralt said yeah women have rights too and uhh lets go back killing monsters.
 

Takamori

Learned
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
908
You can't fix this mess. DLC won't help. Patches won't help. Mods won't help.
In a ideal world where people have shame for fucking up stuff. They could still save itemization and builds to make something interesting at least instead of the fucking Borderlands retarded shit. Because in the end they are just stat blocks at the current state and have almost zero interaction with your perks, if they wanted to go through ARPG route at least do it well where guns have interaction with different aspects of gameplay and do new stuff so you can actually seek then to have new interactions.


One thing fundamentally unfixable is the quest and level design, feels like a bootleg hitman mission with not many alternatives. With few exceptions.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
Is Smasher really that much of joke in game? I've seen a lot of memes comparing Edgerunners Smasher to game Smasher and apparently game Smasher is more disappointing than TW3's final boss.

I can't speak to whether that's the totality of the game, but in what I saw of the game he was a robot who said manly robot stuff once or twice doing the intro, showed up once more to say more manly robot stuff, and then provided a pushover boss fight. He wouldn't even be a character if Johnny and Rogue didn't have some dialogue about him
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,664
Is Smasher really that much of joke in game? I've seen a lot of memes comparing Edgerunners Smasher to game Smasher and apparently game Smasher is more disappointing than TW3's final boss.

I can't speak to whether that's the totality of the game, but in what I saw of the game he was a robot who said manly robot stuff once or twice doing the intro, showed up once more to say more manly robot stuff, and then provided a pushover boss fight. He wouldn't even be a character if Johnny and Rogue didn't have some dialogue about him
He was memorable during Evelyn's Braindance in act 1. Proving again that act 1 was the only good part of the game.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
Is Smasher really that much of joke in game? I've seen a lot of memes comparing Edgerunners Smasher to game Smasher and apparently game Smasher is more disappointing than TW3's final boss.

I can't speak to whether that's the totality of the game, but in what I saw of the game he was a robot who said manly robot stuff once or twice doing the intro, showed up once more to say more manly robot stuff, and then provided a pushover boss fight. He wouldn't even be a character if Johnny and Rogue didn't have some dialogue about him
He was memorable during Evelyn's Braindance in act 1. Proving again that act 1 was the only good part of the game.

Dunno about memorable, but he was certainly menacing. As character traits go that’s not exactly deep but when the rest of the game gives you nothing for the character that part at least stands out. I remember thinking they were setting him up as a villainous bastard who would haunt your step, but no, he’s really just there for the intro
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
19,600
The game representation is way too elegant and clean. You are never confronted with the fact that you're actually just a torso and have no real eyes anymore.
Besides stuff like having hostile NPCs mess with your implants the same way that you can mess with theirs, I think that a neat wait of showcasing the danger of getting too cybered up would've been to use a similar system to hunger in VtMB. Only instead of being lost to the Beast, you risk becoming lost to cyberpsychosis. And unlike with the Beast in VtMB where, ending with 0 humanity aside (which makes you permanently lost to it), you can always feed as to avoid losing control; in Cyberpunk going over a certain amount of implants could give a scaling % chance to trigger psychotic breaks every now and then. This would also add some extra character build depth since now you have to decide whether you want to play with only a reasonable amount of implants or are ready to go over the limit knowing that you'll have to endure the aforementioned psychotic breaks. And ideally you'd also have some NPC reactivity to the inhumanity of your cybered body.
 

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
2,732
going over a certain amount of implants could give a scaling % chance to trigger psychotic breaks every now and then.
Gameplay-wise, a horrible design decision that would only frustrate players and have them reload.

ideally you'd also have some NPC reactivity to the inhumanity of your cybered body.
Not ideally - absolutely necessarily; not some - a fucking lot. Imagine, over certain Humanity thresholds players would lose a choice between showing mercy or executing someone, some social solutions to quests would become impossible, people would not entrust certain tasks to a chromed up V or conversely, only to a sufficiently chromed up one. Characters would refuse to work with the PC fearing him or what he might do, thus forcing a change in quest lines. Some endings would change or become unattainable. Dialogue could change, purely for flavor. Those are just things I came up with while writing this comment. There was a mountain of reactivity that this setting enabled, one that could very well top anything ever done before - and CDP actively chose not to pursue such design, all the while lying about it.
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
19,600
going over a certain amount of implants could give a scaling % chance to trigger psychotic breaks every now and then.
Gameplay-wise, a horrible design decision that would only frustrate players and have them reload.
Precisely why I'd frame it as,
you have to decide whether you want to play with only a reasonable amount of implants or are ready to go over the limit knowing that you'll have to endure the aforementioned psychotic breaks.

If someone wants to savescum, they're free to do so. Others would enjoy it (and it could also be a gameplay setting, so people that don't want to play with such a hindrance can turn it off altogether).
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
19,600
Not ideally - absolutely necessarily; not some - a fucking lot.
I agree, but sadly that ship sailed long ago. Otherwise if we talk in the abstract,
Characters would refuse to work with the PC fearing him or what he might do, thus forcing a change in quest lines.
And on the opposite end... with a functioning faction system, having a certain amount of cyber would be a requirement for becoming a Maelstrom ally (or ideally, outright member). :M
 

Justicar

Dead game
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
4,620
Location
Afghanistan
1664330758895981lwi45.png
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,765
Location
Copenhagen
You can't fix this mess. DLC won't help. Patches won't help. Mods won't help.
In a ideal world where people have shame for fucking up stuff. They could still save itemization and builds to make something interesting at least instead of the fucking Borderlands retarded shit. Because in the end they are just stat blocks at the current state and have almost zero interaction with your perks, if they wanted to go through ARPG route at least do it well where guns have interaction with different aspects of gameplay and do new stuff so you can actually seek then to have new interactions.


One thing fundamentally unfixable is the quest and level design, feels like a bootleg hitman mission with not many alternatives. With few exceptions.

It's kind of dumb yeah. Like, if someone put a "support trans people" on a copy of Mein Kampf, does it suddenly become woke? :lol:

Admittedly Cyberpunk wants to tell you couple of times that its cool and progressive, but really, it's just a bumper sticker. There's not much substantial to it, and even that bumper sticker rarely rears its head.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,269
Managed to snap this beauties yesterday. As you probably know i am replaying it again but this time with 3080 rather than 1080 and all bells and whistles including full raytracing. RT in C77 is very subtle when you look at big scenes but it can change a fucking lot when you look at small scenes especially in car. Like in this cases. It really looks fucking good


photomode_27092022_232633.png

photomode_27092022_232512.png
 

Grauken

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
13,181
It really is quite bizarre.
Is it? I'd say it was to be expected. It was a business decision - to play it safe, don't say anything remotely controversial.
Bad decision, if the game had had more political bite, even with all the bugs, it would have been at least somewhat interesting

They can polish it all they want now but at its core it's just not very interesting narrative-wise
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
Patron
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
13,594
Location
Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
going over a certain amount of implants could give a scaling % chance to trigger psychotic breaks every now and then.
Gameplay-wise, a horrible design decision that would only frustrate players and have them reload.

Sure, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It'd be nice to have some sort of nod to cyberpsychosis in gaming. It was a concept even in Shadowrun that wasn't really delved into much outside of the essence score.

There are a number of ways that this could be modelled without necessarily having a % chance to lose control and go nuts (which would likely work better in a turn-based party CRPG anyway, like X-Com's panic mechanics). Obviously it could be a narrative thing, but it could also impact you mechanically too, like maybe getting too cybered starts to lock out certain options like non-lethal takedowns and non-lethal targetting implants because you're too far removed from humanity to care, or perhaps if you did have the implants, maybe they'd have a % chance to simply not function because your character has gone berserk and chosen not to activate it.

There are probably all sorts of interesting things that could be done to model this aspect of the world and almost any of them would be better than only being limited by slots, cash, essence score, etc.
 

Kjaska

Arbeiter
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
1,594
Location
Germoney
Insert Title Here
Besides stuff like having hostile NPCs mess with your implants the same way that you can mess with theirs, I think that a neat wait of showcasing the danger of getting too cybered up would've been to use a similar system to hunger in VtMB. Only instead of being lost to the Beast, you risk becoming lost to cyberpsychosis. And unlike with the Beast in VtMB where, ending with 0 humanity aside (which makes you permanently lost to it), you can always feed as to avoid losing control; in Cyberpunk going over a certain amount of implants could give a scaling % chance to trigger psychotic breaks every now and then. This would also add some extra character build depth since now you have to decide whether you want to play with only a reasonable amount of implants or are ready to go over the limit knowing that you'll have to endure the aforementioned psychotic breaks. And ideally you'd also have some NPC reactivity to the inhumanity of your cybered body.
I think one of the main issues is that you're only in 1st person view all the time and they didn't really bother making custom modules for your arms and legs (which admittedly would have been a lot of work, if you'd go the route from Edgerunners). You could have all kinds of mismatching weird looking parts scrambled together. Some of them could give you special dialogue options for intimidation and NPCs would sometimes make remarks about your implants, if you had some really good ones. It was probably on the docket for CDPR as well, but the effort is hard to justify when most normies probably wouldn't even notice the difference anyway. Most discussion I have seen on the topic of Edgerunners has been centered around tits, gore and the lol-i.

Technically you already do go "cyberpsycho" in the game. It's whenever you run over a pedestrian on accident.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom