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CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
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Jan 6, 2017
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Bad decision
Well, no. As I said, it was a business decision, not an artistic one. And business-wise, it has paid off.

They can polish it all they want now but at its core it's just not very interesting narrative-wise
Pray that modders adapt PnP modules or even create something new with the release of the modding tools.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
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going over a certain amount of implants could give a scaling % chance to trigger psychotic breaks every now and then.
Gameplay-wise, a horrible design decision that would only frustrate players and have them reload.

Sure, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It'd be nice to have some sort of nod to cyberpsychosis in gaming. It was a concept even in Shadowrun that wasn't really delved into much outside of the essence score.

There are a number of ways that this could be modelled without necessarily having a % chance to lose control and go nuts (which would likely work better in a turn-based party CRPG anyway, like X-Com's panic mechanics). Obviously it could be a narrative thing, but it could also impact you mechanically too, like maybe getting too cybered starts to lock out certain options like non-lethal takedowns and non-lethal targetting implants because you're too far removed from humanity to care, or perhaps if you did have the implants, maybe they'd have a % chance to simply not function because your character has gone berserk and chosen not to activate it.

There are probably all sorts of interesting things that could be done to model this aspect of the world and almost any of them would be better than only being limited by slots, cash, essence score, etc.
Deus Ex 4 has it too, in a sense, you load up too many black market augs up to a certain plot point, you risk Jensen's firmware turning into Windows 95. Or the Wild Mage in D&D is pretty much a walking "I never asked for this" billboard. Chance-of-failure mechanics, even major ones, aren't that controversial even among mainstream gamers as long as decisions and effects are made clear in advance.

If CBP flashed a warning for growing cyberpsychosis risk past your, I dunno, fifth implant, I think it could work. The more important bit would be to present the consequences in a manner that's effective without actually wresting control from the player. For example, imagine a brief, 30-second cyberpsychosis episode during combat where the game replaces all NPCs in the vicinity with ganger models shown as and acting hostile, faux-shooting at you. Even if the player might notice they're not taking damage from certain enemies or remember where certain civillians were, they're bound to sometimes lose track in the chaos and mow down a few innocents, a reasonable rendition of cyberpsychosis that could also be interesting in play.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
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The more important bit would be to present the consequences in a manner that's effective without actually wresting control from the player.

Even that would work if it is handled, as already has been mentioned, like in Bloodlines in that your character only runs amok for a few seconds in which he will attack anybody. The only problem is how to fix this because it wouldn't be as easy as drinking some blood when you are a vampire :)! Would you need to go to a fixer to remove some implants? Or at least get some adjusted? This could be a good reason to make the fixers more important overall...
 

mediocrepoet

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Deus Ex 4 has it too, in a sense, you load up too many black market augs up to a certain plot point, you risk Jensen's firmware turning into Windows 95. Or the Wild Mage in D&D is pretty much a walking "I never asked for this" billboard. Chance-of-failure mechanics, even major ones, aren't that controversial even among mainstream gamers as long as decisions and effects are made clear in advance.

In DX-MD? I might actually have to finally get that out of my backlog.

For example, imagine a brief, 30-second cyberpsychosis episode during combat where the game replaces all NPCs in the vicinity with ganger models shown as and acting hostile, faux-shooting at you. Even if the player might notice they're not taking damage from certain enemies or remember where certain civillians were, they're bound to sometimes lose track in the chaos and mow down a few innocents, a reasonable rendition of cyberpsychosis that could also be interesting in play.

This could be pretty cool. Hopefully CDPR will take some cues from the success of Edgerunners and will integrate some of those themes to their next Cyberpunk project. I thought that they already nailed the melancholy, everything goes to shit vibe of a lot of cyberpunk fiction in 2077.
 

Gargaune

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The only problem is how to fix this because it wouldn't be as easy as drinking some blood when you are a vampire :)! Would you need to go to a fixer to remove some implants? Or at least get some adjusted? This could be a good reason to make the fixers more important overall...
I was thinking on that too, since cyberpsychosis is pitched as a definitively blown fuse in Cyberpunk's lore, not just flipping some switches like in Jensen's case, but taking a couple of liberties really wouldn't have been the end of the world. You could require regular maintenance or sleep or introduced an addiction to some costly focus-enhancing drugs or etc. etc. and you could've even tied some of that stuff into Regina's quest for a cyberpsychosis treatment or whatever. Point being, it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but rather an opportunity to add some interesting mechanical loops to the game.
 

Marat

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Wumao
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Another idea for modeling cyberpsychosis: You choose a dialogue line and V unexpectedly says something completely different at a crucial point, thus altering the reaction of the NPC and that could lead to surprising results, different quest resolutions etc.
 

mediocrepoet

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The only problem is how to fix this because it wouldn't be as easy as drinking some blood when you are a vampire :)! Would you need to go to a fixer to remove some implants? Or at least get some adjusted? This could be a good reason to make the fixers more important overall...
I was thinking on that too, since cyberpsychosis is pitched as a definitively blown fuse in Cyberpunk's lore, not just flipping some switches like in Jensen's case, but taking a couple of liberties really wouldn't have been the end of the world. You could require regular maintenance or sleep or introduced an addiction to some costly focus-enhancing drugs or etc. etc. and you could've even tied some of that stuff into Regina's quest for a cyberpsychosis treatment or whatever. Point being, it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but rather an opportunity to add some interesting mechanical loops to the game.
Another way to approach it might simply be to have the PC skirt the line but show another key NPC's descent into cyberpsychosis and becoming a major threat later on.

I was also thinking something similar to Marat above where perhaps certain dialogues become more railroaded into murder hobo territory the more far gone you are, perhaps culminating in something like no actual choices (can only push 1 to advance dialogue) and have something akin to Fallout's low int path that you're locked into if you go too far (after being warned that you really could slip off the edge).
 

Gargaune

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In DX-MD? I might actually have to finally get that out of my backlog.
Yes, aside from the regular augmentations, you can choose to activate some black market systems at the expense of additional load on an Overclock stat. The higher your Overclock, the more likely you are to get Glitches, ranging from visual artifacts to UI failures and even critical augmentation malfunctions. Once you've enabled some of these black market features, the only way to reduce your Overclock is to permanently disable some of your regular systems.

Though you'll get to a point in the plot where the Overclock mechanic is done away with and you can unlock everything you like with no issue, so it's not all that permanent.



And yeah, DX4 is absolutely worth bringing up from your backlog. It ain't perfect and there are some legitimate criticisms of the plot, but it's a genuinely fantastic title and the best DX entry since the original. Make sure you play its A Criminal Past DLC too, a tour de force for EM's level designers.

Another idea for modeling cyberpsychosis: You choose a dialogue line and V unexpectedly says something completely different at a crucial point, thus altering the reaction of the NPC and that could lead to surprising results, different quest resolutions etc.
Could lead to some hilarious outcomes, but then I think you'd really be nosediving into savescum territory. I suspect people would be onboard with whacking civvies and facing the NCPD over a cyberpsychosis fit, but they probably wouldn't be too happy botching a quest branch or waking up in River's bed on account of it.

Another way to approach it might simply be to have the PC skirt the line but show another key NPC's descent into cyberpsychosis and becoming a major threat later on.
Sure, it would be a solid way to show cyberpsychosis narratively, but given an opportunity, I'm always in favour of letting the player experience stuff in gameplay.
 

Wesp5

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I was also thinking something similar to Marat above where perhaps certain dialogues become more railroaded into murder hobo territory the more far gone you are, perhaps culminating in something like no actual choices (can only push 1 to advance dialogue) and have something akin to Fallout's low int path that you're locked into if you go too far (after being warned that you really could slip off the edge).

That sounds like the Humanity system in Bloodlines: a low Humanity rating limits your dialogue options and increases the chance you will loose controls in a fight (due to frenzy). This could be transfered 1:1 to cyberpsychosis...
 

Trithne

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And yeah, DX4 is absolutely worth bringing up from your backlog. It ain't perfect and there are some legitimate criticisms of the plot, but it's a genuinely fantastic title and the best DX entry since the original. Make sure you play its A Criminal Past DLC too, a tour de force for EM's level designers.


Huh, that's actually pretty neat. I have (don't even remember how I got it, I know I didn't buy it) DXMD, but I skipped it since I figured it was just going to be more DXHR, seems that wasn't entirely the case?

Oh, right. And because of the microtransactions. I wanted no part of anything with that shit.
 

Gargaune

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Huh, that's actually pretty neat. I have (don't even remember how I got it, I know I didn't buy it) DXMD, but I skipped it since I figured it was just going to be more DXHR, seems that wasn't entirely the case?

Oh, right. And because of the microtransactions. I wanted no part of anything with that shit.
It's better than HR but still an evolution from it instead of a complete overhaul, so if you hated that, MD might not do much better. I thought HR was reasonably good as a modern DX successor and MD was excellent by the same metric, so maybe set your expectations along those lines. And yeah, Squeenix's batshit nickel-and-diming really hobbled the game's release, it deserved better. Either way, if you already have it, it's at least worth trying for an hour or so to see how you get on, just don't get too hung up on the plot and disable Objective Locators and the Radar in your Gameplay Settings right away, Deus Ex games shouldn't have those.

But you know, talking about DX4 in here is getting me pissed off again. It's almost as if CDPR had another game that was perfect to model their bloody mechanics on but they didn't, imagine that.
 

KVVRR

Learned
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Apr 28, 2020
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652
The problem with adding a cyberpsychosis system that affects the storyline is that you might end up with something like Dishonored, where you are given all these tools but the game penalizes you if you actually use them.

Of course it wouldn't be as bad here since you fan use them, just not the whole kit at once, but I still feel like a lot of people wouldn't like that.
 

Gargaune

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The problem with adding a cyberpsychosis system that affects the storyline is that you might end up with something like Dishonored, where you are given all these tools but the game penalizes you if you actually use them.

Of course it wouldn't be as bad here since you fan use them, just not the whole kit at once, but I still feel like a lot of people wouldn't like that.
I'm not sure that's the case. Even Dishonored's Chaos mechanic, while not the most inspired, was actually a creative relaxation of Thief's "don't kill people" rule - you could kill people, but there'd be a price to pay later. And ultimately, the cyberpsychosis mechanic we're discussing would be closer to the slot limitations on cyberware, I don't see a lot of people complaining that there's only one leg slot because, even among general audiences, it's understood that some exclusive choices are part of what makes the game work. So in what we were talking about you could have X total implants but as a soft limit, and you could go higher but at your own risk. I don't think the concept in and of itself would vex players, the trick would be for devs to correctly balance the limits and the consequences and to communicate them clearly.
 

GhostCow

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I think you guys are way too focused on following the lore than making the gameplay fun. Rng isn't fun and neither is limiting your build because reasons.
 

bobocrunch

Educated
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Dec 26, 2018
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148
All the talk of cyberpsychosis and general tech problems really makes me wish Mankind Divided was finished, the social justice shit was way too hamfisted (especially when it's over an event where augs literally go psycho and rip people to shreds) and actually going to that desert city would've been amazing.
 

bobocrunch

Educated
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Dec 26, 2018
Messages
148
In Deus Ex,mechanical augmentations also completely wrecks the social life of its possessor. See Gunther Hermann and Agent Navarre,who are so fucked up that they even compete against each other to see who has killed more NSF targets. It destroys a person's humanity,ironically enough,it doesn't elevate it.
Aaand,we have now turned a Cyberpunk 2077 thread into a Deus Ex one,which goes to show how much better the original Deus Ex is at building a dystopian and cyberpunk setting,while also delving into the morality and even tragic ramifications of enhancing the human body,but not its soul or aspirations.

Because in CDPR's Cyberpunk, these questions virtually don't exist. There's no "old grey golems sold at flee markets", no fears of obsolescence, or being forced into augmentation to compete in the market. In Cyberpunk, augmentation is standard. Everyone has it, and outside of a few crackpot or religious characters, no-one minds. There's a vague point being made about keeping up with the latest tech in order to stay competitive, but people view this the way we view learning a new skill in a rapidly moving industry. Even Cyberpsychos are just "lol too much chrome". Cyberpunk celebrates augmentation. At no point does someone ask "what about my leggs? what about my life?!"
I think it celebrates augmentation in the game world because of how much it's under corporate control. The biggest people are crackpots because it turns you into one, being anti-cyberware in a world controlled by cyberware. You can use tons of examples from politics to social shit irl nowadays, but as society condemns / flies by people, their arguments become more unhinged and radical to counter the normalization. Most of the pro-cyberware PDAs and shit are 'CYBERWARE IS AWESOME -SPONSORED BY ARASAKA' so as unsubtle as it is, the 'religious crackpot' is just more obvious as a 'lol funny goofball' than the mundane and normalized corporate / government fellatio of their own ideas and products.

I'm sure that's all cope and it's just surface level DUUUDE WHAT IF U HAD ROBOT ARMS twitter shit but Death of the Author.
 
Joined
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Codex Year of the Donut
Because in CDPR's Cyberpunk, these questions virtually don't exist. There's no "old grey golems sold at flee markets", no fears of obsolescence, or being forced into augmentation to compete in the market. In Cyberpunk, augmentation is standard. Everyone has it, and outside of a few crackpot or religious characters, no-one minds. There's a vague point being made about keeping up with the latest tech in order to stay competitive, but people view this the way we view learning a new skill in a rapidly moving industry. Even Cyberpsychos are just "lol too much chrome". Cyberpunk celebrates augmentation. At no point does someone ask "what about my leggs? what about my life?!"
because it's poorly written

hope that clears things up
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
652
The problem with adding a cyberpsychosis system that affects the storyline is that you might end up with something like Dishonored, where you are given all these tools but the game penalizes you if you actually use them.

Of course it wouldn't be as bad here since you fan use them, just not the whole kit at once, but I still feel like a lot of people wouldn't like that.
I'm not sure that's the case. Even Dishonored's Chaos mechanic, while not the most inspired, was actually a creative relaxation of Thief's "don't kill people" rule - you could kill people, but there'd be a price to pay later. And ultimately, the cyberpsychosis mechanic we're discussing would be closer to the slot limitations on cyberware, I don't see a lot of people complaining that there's only one leg slot because, even among general audiences, it's understood that some exclusive choices are part of what makes the game work. So in what we were talking about you could have X total implants but as a soft limit, and you could go higher but at your own risk. I don't think the concept in and of itself would vex players, the trick would be for devs to correctly balance the limits and the consequences and to communicate them clearly.
Sure, but my point is that people wouldn't like it. Even as relaxed as Dishonored's system is (that allows you to get the good ending so long as you don't go full rambo on most missions) just having the system in place there is enough to make people squirm. I've seen accounts of some being unable to play the game normally and just having to reload every time someone spots them because "what if the game penalizes me for killing them?"
Those are extreme cases but you get what I mean. People don't like ambiguous restrictions on their vidya, even if it is a cool idea.
 

Gargaune

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Sure, but my point is that people wouldn't like it. Even as relaxed as Dishonored's system is (that allows you to get the good ending so long as you don't go full rambo on most missions) just having the system in place there is enough to make people squirm. I've seen accounts of some being unable to play the game normally and just having to reload every time someone spots them because "what if the game penalizes me for killing them?"
Those are extreme cases but you get what I mean. People don't like ambiguous restrictions on their vidya, even if it is a cool idea.
Ambiguous, sure, and though I don't remember Dishonored all that well, I recall feeling uneasy about how many bodies I dropped and how much of an impact that would have on future missions. But, again, I don't see the concept of a cyberpsychosis mechanic generating random challenges past a clear threshold as analogue to Dishonored's Chaos mechanic - if, for the sake of example, it stated "after 5 implants, each additional implant adds a 3% chance of spazzing out in combat", is that ambiguous? You're not making an on-the-spot decision about owning up that one kill against a hypothetical kill you might need later and nebulous limits, you know what the stakes are and you're under no pressure to take that extra implant.

Consider the examples given, Deus Ex's Overclock mechanic or the Wild Mage with their "1 extra spell slot, 5% chance of wild surge when casting." Some people do play Wild Mages and I don't recall any complaints about DX4 featuring this sort of mechanic. In fact, I recall the opposite, people criticised...

... the limit getting removed in the last part of the game.

It's just a risk-reward calculation that's common in RPGs, like picking one feat or spell over another, since you only get so many. Hell, just picking a Weapon Specialisation feat on leveling is more of an ambiguous crapshoot, seeing as you don't know what loot might be around the corner. So if you're feeling lucky, you take that first little step towards cyberpsychosis, see how you deal with the new risks or maintenance requirements, and then you decide whether you're up for more.
 

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