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Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Oh, I didn't know Obsidian got royalties with KOTOR2. I thought that before PoE, they only got royalties from NWN2.

Most people didn't, Feargus mandated that royalties (from any game) would only be dispersed amongst upper management, in %s according to ownership in company (which meant Chris Jones and I didn't see much, but the other three did).

Wait a minute - as opposed to what? Where did the royalties go in NWN2's case? I've assumed all along that royalties went to the company, not to individual people. Since the company was owned by its upper management, logically the money would become available to them. Isn't that completely normal and expected?

Anyway, this might help explain how Obsidian was able to survive all these years. In retrospect, the "never got any royalties ever except for NWN2" narrative never made that much sense.
 
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Wait a minute - as opposed to what? Where did the royalties go in NWN2's case? I've assumed all along that royalties went to the company, not to individual people. Since the company was owned by its upper management, logically the money would become available to them. Isn't that completely normal and expected?

Anyway, this might help explain how Obsidian was able to survive all these years. In retrospect, the "never got any royalties ever except for NWN2" narrative never made that much sense.

No, what you said makes sense, but it's not what I said: it didn't go to the company - it went to upper management, personally. It didn't go into the company's "bank account" (which would have been great) and it also didn't go to employees (which would have been nice for people who worked on the projects).

What you're saying is normal and expected, and would make sense.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Wait a minute - as opposed to what? Where did the royalties go in NWN2's case? I've assumed all along that royalties went to the company, not to individual people. Since the company was owned by its upper management, logically the money would become available to them. Isn't that completely normal and expected?

Anyway, this might help explain how Obsidian was able to survive all these years. In retrospect, the "never got any royalties ever except for NWN2" narrative never made that much sense.

No, what you said makes sense, but it's not what I said: it didn't go to the company - it went to upper management, personally. It didn't go into the company's "bank account" (which would have been great) and it also didn't go to employees (which would have been nice for people who worked on the projects).

What you're saying is normal and expected, and would make sense.

Was KOTOR2 the only time this happened? It could, perhaps, have been a consequence of it being the studio's first game. Like maybe they (you?) weren't even sure the entire thing was going to get off the ground at that point, so it was more prudent to sign a personal deal.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Isn't Arcanum was based on Fallout engine?

Based perhaps, but no actual Fallout code was ever used (that would have been illegal if Troika had tried to take the code from Fallout and repurpose it for Arcanum).

They could still write an engine with the same principles from scratch, though.

It's good they didn't try (although Tim's too ethical for that to ever have been a question, imo), because Fargo actually sent programmers to Troika to examine their code to make sure they hadn't stolen anything when they left (they didn't find anything, but if they had, it would have been Bad Times for Troika).
Yay, more reasons to hate Fargo.
lol @ the negative ratings. Copyright is theft.
 

Quillon

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I don't know much about how royalties work but I understand when there is royalties when the game is funded by a publisher but why were there royalties for PoE? Profit for each copy sold already going to the studio, ain't it? :D
 

Fairfax

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and that engine was borrowed for DA2 (which I think also did well).
Interplay used it without permission in BOS, DA2, BOS2, and DA3. Snowblind sued Interplay for it, and BOS2 was cancelled because of the legal battle. They settled and signed an agreement for a new DA game in 2005, but it was too late at that point.
 

Latelistener

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I do think Swen made the right decision (although he worked to make sure he could afford to) by ditching Unity entirely and doing a new engine - it was a setback initially, but in the end, seemed to work out for them (and now it's set for anything else they do with it).
Is this actually their own engine, like on 100%? I always thought it was some kind of heavily modified version of Gamebryo they licensed for Divinity II.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Wait a minute - as opposed to what? Where did the royalties go in NWN2's case? I've assumed all along that royalties went to the company, not to individual people. Since the company was owned by its upper management, logically the money would become available to them. Isn't that completely normal and expected?

No, what you said makes sense, but it's not what I said: it didn't go to the company - it went to upper management, personally.

Including you, one would presume.
 

Quillon

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Wait a minute - as opposed to what? Where did the royalties go in NWN2's case? I've assumed all along that royalties went to the company, not to individual people. Since the company was owned by its upper management, logically the money would become available to them. Isn't that completely normal and expected?

No, what you said makes sense, but it's not what I said: it didn't go to the company - it went to upper management, personally.

Including you, one would presume.

Explains how he has more than enough cash to battle Obs in court :P

Give up Chris, use that moneh to open a rival studio instead. -Bethesda might even let you make Fallout Shelter 2!
 
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Roguey

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In this alternate timeline, couldn't you have used Fallout's engine to make party-based turn-based RPGs?
The Aussies who made Fallout Tactics used their own engine instead of Fallout's trash heap.:M

Including you, one would presume.
Why presume?
"Feargus mandated that royalties (from any game) would only be dispersed amongst upper management, in %s according to ownership in company (which meant Chris Jones and I didn't see much, but the other three did)."
 

Luckmann

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In this alternate timeline, couldn't you have used Fallout's engine to make party-based turn-based RPGs?

I think the Fallout engine was already close to collapse when Fallout 2 was released, and no one seemed to think it was a good idea to use that codebase again - but I wasn't privy to those decisions.
Isn't Arcanum was based on Fallout engine?

Based perhaps, but no actual Fallout code was ever used (that would have been illegal if Troika had tried to take the code from Fallout and repurpose it for Arcanum).

They could still write an engine with the same principles from scratch, though.

It's good they didn't try (although Tim's too ethical for that to ever have been a question, imo), because Fargo actually sent programmers to Troika to examine their code to make sure they hadn't stolen anything when they left (they didn't find anything, but if they had, it would have been Bad Times for Troika).
I'm not a codemonkey, so I won't pretend to know any of the finer points here or what is based on what, I just wanted to say that:
  • It's a damn shame Fallout: Tactics never got playtested properly and finished up in the TB/CTB department.
  • I always wanted to see another Fallout in that exact style or even a remake of F1/F2, because it had the potential to be an excellent CRPG engine/framework.
I don't care whether it was actually based in the original engine or not. If it wasn't, it did an excellent job of pretending to be.

It's good they didn't try (although Tim's too ethical for that to ever have been a question, imo), because Fargo actually sent programmers to Troika to examine their code to make sure they hadn't stolen anything when they left (they didn't find anything, but if they had, it would have been Bad Times for Troika).
I am sometimes so happy I'm not the one to have been in your positions, because if so, I would've been in jail a long time ago, because fucking hell these fucking people, I swear.
Isn't Arcanum was based on Fallout engine?

Based perhaps, but no actual Fallout code was ever used (that would have been illegal if Troika had tried to take the code from Fallout and repurpose it for Arcanum).

They could still write an engine with the same principles from scratch, though.

It's good they didn't try (although Tim's too ethical for that to ever have been a question, imo), because Fargo actually sent programmers to Troika to examine their code to make sure they hadn't stolen anything when they left (they didn't find anything, but if they had, it would have been Bad Times for Troika).
Yay, more reasons to hate Fargo.
lol @ the negative ratings. Copyright is theft.
I think it's irrelevant whether copyright is theft or not (I would be inclined to agree, but I would not put it in such a way, because the fact of the matter is that it is not, much in the same way piracy isn't theft, and so on). I think the issue is more that someone would go out of their way to try to catch someone that is obviously not malicious in nature or abusing "your" code or anything like that. Even if they would've "stolen" code, I don't see why anyone would be eager to catch someone in the act, in this scenario, for reasons other than to be a money-grubbing bag of shit. It's people like (((Fargo)))'s fault we can't all just be friends.
 
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Cael

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I'm not a codemonkey, so I won't pretend to know any of the finer points here or what is based on what, I just wanted to say that:
  • It's a damn shame Fallout: Tactics never got playtested properly and finished up in the TB/CTB department.
  • I always wanted to see another Fallout in that exact style or even a remake of F1/F2, because it had the potential to be an excellent CRPG engine/framework.
I don't care whether it was actually based in the original engine or not. If it wasn't, it did an excellent job of pretending to be.
From my experience poking around the FOT engine the last few weeks:

The Tactics engine has problems with too many items or layers on maps. I am getting massive slowdowns and jerkiness even on FT Tools when I increase the elevations to get to entities and assets.

In my version of Quincy, where I increased the number of enemies dramatically (somewhere close to double the number of the original), the game starts to jerk and lag a bit towards the end when all the guys are dead. It is particularly noticeable in the rescue the ghouls segment, where I tripled the number of attackers across the board and the pile of dead bodies really causes the game to jerk.

Most of the crashes with FOT seem to be tied to the engine running out of memory, and I have noticed that this happens more often when the game is switching background music tracks (Macomb, especially, but also Quincy and Junction City).

The FOT engine isn't very stable is what I am saying.

However, compared to FO2 maps, FOT maps are massive, and the number of layers on them can be pretty insane (look at the Coldwater map; each level is 13 layers). Maybe on the smaller FO2 style maps, it might be more stable. I don't know.
 

Luckmann

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I'm not a codemonkey, so I won't pretend to know any of the finer points here or what is based on what, I just wanted to say that:
  • It's a damn shame Fallout: Tactics never got playtested properly and finished up in the TB/CTB department.
  • I always wanted to see another Fallout in that exact style or even a remake of F1/F2, because it had the potential to be an excellent CRPG engine/framework.
I don't care whether it was actually based in the original engine or not. If it wasn't, it did an excellent job of pretending to be.
From my experience poking around the FOT engine the last few weeks:

The Tactics engine has problems with too many items or layers on maps. I am getting massive slowdowns and jerkiness even on FT Tools when I increase the elevations to get to entities and assets.

In my version of Quincy, where I increased the number of enemies dramatically (somewhere close to double the number of the original), the game starts to jerk and lag a bit towards the end when all the guys are dead. It is particularly noticeable in the rescue the ghouls segment, where I tripled the number of attackers across the board and the pile of dead bodies really causes the game to jerk.

Most of the crashes with FOT seem to be tied to the engine running out of memory, and I have noticed that this happens more often when the game is switching background music tracks (Macomb, especially, but also Quincy and Junction City).

The FOT engine isn't very stable is what I am saying.

However, compared to FO2 maps, FOT maps are massive, and the number of layers on them can be pretty insane (look at the Coldwater map; each level is 13 layers). Maybe on the smaller FO2 style maps, it might be more stable. I don't know.
To be fair, though, yes, sure, what you're saying is probably entirely true, but FOT also has dramatically more straight-up enemies and combat scenarios than a real CRPG using the same engine would've had. You had to double the number of actors in Quincy before the issues really became an.. issue, after all. Also, had there been more games based on FOT, I would assume that work on the engine would've continued.

We all know how fucked the TB/CTB stuff is (honestly, I'm still pissed that years down the line, games that use TB/CTB still haven't figured out how a pause button might be nice to have regardless of whether the game is primarily TB or not; WL2 and both D:OS games being perfect examples) for example.
 

Shadenuat

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Whatever. I'm just glad that there was something about IWD2 that made it stand out from the other IE games. Developers blaming each other over these things is classic misdirection bullshit.
The kits were unique compared to even BG2 (which had some trash kits, something the balance-man wouldn't abide) https://sorcerers.net/community/threads/icewind-dale-ii-tentative-kits-list.70048/
3rd level: Heroic Inspiration: Every time a member of the party (PC) dies, the Skald gains +1 attack bonus and damage, up to a maximum of +5. This bonus lasts as long as enemies are in view.
Don't know who made this but this is the most Sawyer ability ever
PoE has so much of similar stuff, there was even a build in PoE1 around killing your barbarian
 

FreeKaner

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Whatever. I'm just glad that there was something about IWD2 that made it stand out from the other IE games. Developers blaming each other over these things is classic misdirection bullshit.
The kits were unique compared to even BG2 (which had some trash kits, something the balance-man wouldn't abide) https://sorcerers.net/community/threads/icewind-dale-ii-tentative-kits-list.70048/
3rd level: Heroic Inspiration: Every time a member of the party (PC) dies, the Skald gains +1 attack bonus and damage, up to a maximum of +5. This bonus lasts as long as enemies are in view.
Don't know who made this but this is the most Sawyer ability ever
PoE has so much of similar stuff, there was even a build in PoE1 around killing your barbarian

It's also so trivial. He is called balance man but he has no idea of balance. Such strong sacrifice needs to have greater pay off.

In fact, in general, it appears that Sawyer is completely incapable of properly doing a risk & reward assessment. He uses a simple trade-off as a base line and never adjusts for risk and reward, and instead just reduces risk and reward. However in cases where risk cannot be reduced further (having a party member dead) he still abides by his own baseline. It's not balance, it's streamlining, there can be no balance if risk and reward aren't weighted against each other.
 
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Luckmann

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It's also so trivial. He is called balance man but he has no idea of balance.
That is indeed the joke. Everyone in the know uses the idea of Sawyer as a "balance man" ironically. The only ones that takes it serious are the ones that have seen him referred to as such without understanding the joke, and it spread memetically from there.
 

Fairfax

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3rd level: Heroic Inspiration: Every time a member of the party (PC) dies, the Skald gains +1 attack bonus and damage, up to a maximum of +5. This bonus lasts as long as enemies are in view.
Don't know who made this but this is the most Sawyer ability ever
PoE has so much of similar stuff, there was even a build in PoE1 around killing your barbarian
The original kit is from The Complete Bard's Handbook, and it's very different:

Special Benefits:
War Chant: By chanting a war song, a Skald can inspire allies as they go forward into combat. For the chant to have an effect, the Skald must begin chanting at least three rounds before combat begins, otherwise his allies are too caught up in the events about them to benefit from this ability. Such chanting has an effective range of ten feet per level of the Skald. The effects end as soon as the Skald receives his first wound. If the Skald does not enter the fray (and avoids being wounded), the effects end in a number of rounds equal to the Skalds level. At 1st level, the Skald can choose only one of the following six effects per battle; at 3rd level two effects are chosen, three at 6th, four at 9th, etc. The Skald player chooses the effects, and can change them from one battle to the next.

Chanting can elevate spirits, remove concerns about danger, keep men's minds focused on combat, and fill friendly forces with a sense of being larger than life. Translated into game terms, this results in the following six possible effects for the members of the Skalds party:
  • Bonus hit points equal to the Skald's Hit Dice.
  • A morale bonus of 1 for every six levels of the Skald (rounded up).
  • A +1 bonus to all attack rolls.
  • A +1 bonus to all damage rolls.
  • A +1 bonus to all saving throws.
  • A -1 bonus to everyone's Armor Class.
Influence Reactions: If a Skald spends 1d10 rounds singing ballads, he can attempt to improve the reactions of an audience. Everyone able to clearly hear and understand the Skald must roll a saving throw vs. paralyzation with a -1 penalty per three levels of the Skald. Those who fail have their reactions to the Skald improved by one level. Those who succeed do not find the Skalds ballad to be particularly moving;. Those who succeed on a natural 20 find the song to be offensive and their reactions worsen one level.

Battle Chant: Skalds are a bit more combative than most bards. This provides them with certain combat advantages. The Skald fights with a +1 attack roll bonus any time he is singing or chanting during combat, even a soft chant under his breath. In addition, the Skald gains a +1 damage bonus when using a broadsword, axe (any type), or spear while he is chanting, provided that he has proficiency with the weapon. These bonuses almost always apply, unless the bard is silenced, underwater, etc.

Legend Lore: Skalds love legends about war and combat. Legend lore works the same for Skalds as it does for True Bards, except that Skalds can perform legend lore only upon magical items having to do with war or combat (e.g., weapons, armor, strength potions, etc.).

Special Hindrances: The Skald's society does not have a written language. Because of this, Skalds cannot take the reading/writing proficiency when created. Furthermore, they do not get the read languages ability at 3rd level if they stay in their home society. However, both of these limits are lifted once the Skald comes into contact with a culture that reads and writes. He can then pick up the reading/writing proficiency at twice the normal cost and gains the read languages ability at a 0% base (i.e., he must put points into the skill or he has a zero chance for success). Skalds do not gain the use any written magical item ability at 10th level.

Spells are also nearly unknown in the Skalds society, and they are viewed with suspicion in any event. Thus, Skalds cannot learn any spells until they encounter a spellcasting culture. Once contact has been made, the Skald can begin casting spells when he gains his next level. At this time he is considered a 2nd-level spellcaster (providing he is at least 3rd level by this time). His spellcasting level increases by 1 every time he gains a level thereafter.

If your campaign does not have a Viking culture, but a player still wishes to play a Skald, assume that the character left his distant homeland and has journeyed to the existing campaign setting. This character can take reading/writing proficiency when he gains his next level, provided he has the proficiency slots available. He gains the ability to cast spells as outlined above. Notes: The Vikings Campaign Sourcebook is a good resource to be used in conjunction with Skald bards.
 

fantadomat

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Oh, I didn't know Obsidian got royalties with KOTOR2. I thought that before PoE, they only got royalties from NWN2.

Most people didn't, Feargus mandated that royalties (from any game) would only be dispersed amongst upper management, in %s according to ownership in company (which meant Chris Jones and I didn't see much, but the other three did).

As a result, not many people knew we were getting royalties at all because they'd never see any sign of it.

In the initial projections for PoE1, they were planning the same %s when royalties came in as well. This may have changed since, but that was the pattern for the years I was there.
I see nothing wrong with it,they are the owners of the company while the other people are hired to do a job.
 

fantadomat

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Yeah, keeping your employees happy can't possibly lead to anything good.
Are you saying that you would be happy to run your business and give the proceedings to your employs? Employs are entitled to their paychecks and owners to the proceedings of the project or what ever you sell. Employers should't be entitled to anything outside of what was promised to them.
 
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In any business you got to find a way to give your employees motivation. Especially in vidya because of all the insane crunch. You can't just say "We just don't care about you" even if you actually don't. You got to at least have the illusion that an employee's work is appreciated.
 

Luckmann

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Oh, I didn't know Obsidian got royalties with KOTOR2. I thought that before PoE, they only got royalties from NWN2.

Most people didn't, Feargus mandated that royalties (from any game) would only be dispersed amongst upper management, in %s according to ownership in company (which meant Chris Jones and I didn't see much, but the other three did).

As a result, not many people knew we were getting royalties at all because they'd never see any sign of it.

In the initial projections for PoE1, they were planning the same %s when royalties came in as well. This may have changed since, but that was the pattern for the years I was there.
I see nothing wrong with it,they are the owners of the company while the other people are hired to do a job.
This logic (or lack thereof) can be applied to any kind of quandary. "X game is shit? I don't see the problem, the owners can make shit games if they want to.", etc. Nobody is saying that they weren't allowed to do this. Your argument isn't one.
Yeah, keeping your employees happy can't possibly lead to anything good.
Are you saying that you would be happy to run your business and give the proceedings to your employs? Employs are entitled to their paychecks and owners to the proceedings of the project or what ever you sell. Employers should't be entitled to anything outside of what was promised to them.
Nobody said anything about employees being entitled to anything. That's SocJus garbage-speak and a dishonest, shitty re-framing of the issue(s). Nobody even suggested that the employees somehow had the right to receive the royalties.

The point is that KotOR2 was shipped in an incomplete state just so that a few shit-grins in upper management itself would get the royalties, with the cop-out of "We'll get it right next time he he".

Also, while it is entirely within the rights of the owners to mandate how royalties will be divided, it doesn't mean that the dividing in question is in any way productive or justifiable from any other perspective other than the legal one, which says absolutely fuck all. At the very least, it creates an unnecessary and counter-productive "us vs. them" and in at least one case obviously created a very real conflict of interest between "upper management" and the developers (who wanted to make a good game) or fans (who wanted to get a finished game). If royalties had been divided, say, even 50% "upper management"/50% "everyone else" there might've been a very much needed in-house discussion along the lines of "Do we call it, or do we just say screw it and do what we set out to do?"

Instead, the top Jew made a call as to what benefited him and him alone. Was it his legal right? Yes, it was. Does that make him any less of a turd? No, so stop making shit-tier excuses for it.

Edit: Not sure if serious? 100% certified Zyklon Boom serious.

Edit 2: And yes, if I ran a successful business, I would absolutely give part of the proceeds to the employees, or stocks if it was traded. Making people part-owners, even if it is a very small part, and rewarding the workers when the company as a whole is successful, is a tremendously good way to motivate the workforce, if nothing else.
 
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Butter

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In any business you got to find a way to give your employees motivation. Especially in vidya because of all the insane crunch. You can't just say "We just don't care about you" even if you actually don't. You got to at least have the illusion that an employee's work is appreciated.
They probably get a really nice sheet cake when the 6 months of crunch are over.

But then they get laid off.
 

fantadomat

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Oh, I didn't know Obsidian got royalties with KOTOR2. I thought that before PoE, they only got royalties from NWN2.

Most people didn't, Feargus mandated that royalties (from any game) would only be dispersed amongst upper management, in %s according to ownership in company (which meant Chris Jones and I didn't see much, but the other three did).

As a result, not many people knew we were getting royalties at all because they'd never see any sign of it.

In the initial projections for PoE1, they were planning the same %s when royalties came in as well. This may have changed since, but that was the pattern for the years I was there.
I see nothing wrong with it,they are the owners of the company while the other people are hired to do a job.
This logic (or lack thereof) can be applied to any kind of quandary. "X game is shit? I don't see the problem, the owners can make shit games if they want to.", etc. Nobody is saying that they weren't allowed to do this. Your argument isn't one.
Yeah, keeping your employees happy can't possibly lead to anything good.
Are you saying that you would be happy to run your business and give the proceedings to your employs? Employs are entitled to their paychecks and owners to the proceedings of the project or what ever you sell. Employers should't be entitled to anything outside of what was promised to them.
Nobody said anything about employees being entitled to anything. That's SocJus garbage-speak and a dishonest, shitty re-framing of the issue(s). Nobody even suggested that the employees somehow had the right to receive the royalties.

The point is that KotOR2 was shipped in an incomplete state just so that a few shit-grins in upper management itself would get the royalties, with the cop-out of "We'll get it right next time he he".

Also, while it is entirely within the rights of the owners to mandate how royalties will be divided, it doesn't mean that the dividing in question is in any way productive or justifiable from any other perspective other than the legal one, which says absolutely fuck all. At the very least, it creates an unnecessary and counter-productive "us vs. them" and in at least one case obviously created a very real conflict of interest between "upper management" and the developers (who wanted to make a good game) or fans (who wanted to get a finished game). If royalties had been divided, say, even 50% "upper management"/50% "everyone else" there might've been a very much needed in-house discussion along the lines of "Do we call it, or do we just say screw it and do what we set out to do?"

Instead, the top Jew made a call as to what benefited him and him alone. Was it his legal right? Yes, it was. Does that make him any less of a turd? No, so stop making shit-tier excuses for it.
Well your point is pretty sjw as you say. You are arguing that this thing is wrong because the owners are retards and you don't like them. Also you are arguing from the points brought by MCA,which i wouldn't say that he is lying,but every situation have two sides. Nether of us have been there to know what was the situation or what was needed. Also many people here forget that personal accounts of the owner and the company accounts are linked in a way. If there is a need he could give financial injection to the company and vice versa.


I argue that man should still have the freedom to run their companies as the see fit and spend their money as they wish. Those people made a company,hired people and made games,those games sold and they got the proceedings. Nobody can tell them what to do with the money they made,moral or not not. Employs could pack their bags and leave,fans could stop buying they games as i did. Too many armchair economists here,telling how a company should be run and how they should spend their money. Instead of doing such shit go and make your own companies,hire people and bring us good rpgs. Game making is a fucking business,people do make companies to make money not stroke your moral ego. He managed to keep the company afloat for 15 years,and that is not a small thing. They could do what he wants with his money and you cold not buy their games if you disagree with it.
 

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