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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,161
Location
Platypus Planet
Troika was passionate about making good cRPG's (they sucked at being a business). Obsidian does good business and continues to make games. :M

I wouldn't say Obsidian is good at doing business since they are always hanging by a thread when transitioning from one project to another. They're good at surviving, though. And they are the dindu darlings of the RPG community.

I'm not sure they're in as bad a position anymore. If something big happened they probably would have to downsize again, but it wouldn't be as life threatening.

Maybe they made some bank with PoE, but they were going to shut operations if PoE wasn't going to sell. I think it takes more than one game to recover from that. We'll see if the Tank and Card games make enough steady revenue to keep them afloat. I think Feargus is counting on that more than anything else.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Troika was passionate about making good cRPG's (they sucked at being a business). Obsidian does good business and continues to make games. :M

I wouldn't say Obsidian is good at doing business since they are always hanging by a thread when transitioning from one project to another. They're good at surviving, though. And they are the dindu darlings of the RPG community.

I'm not sure they're in as bad a position anymore. If something big happened they probably would have to downsize again, but it wouldn't be as life threatening.

Maybe they made some bank with PoE, but they were going to shut operations if PoE wasn't going to sell. I think it takes more than one game to recover from that. We'll see if the Tank and Card games make enough steady revenue to keep them afloat. I think Feargus is counting on that more than anything else.

Yes, of course. Projects like these are what keeps Obisidian afloat. But shutting down if PoE wasn't going to sell is more like dramatization on their part.

But they were in a much worse position in 2012 before PoE was even a thought in the devs minds. Now they have a game (Armored Warfare) that actually keeps them employed for a longer time. They are still working with publishers and they even have their own IP which gets at least a bit of money steady.

Fact is: They are twice as big now as they were before PoE and AW (Which also means their burnrate is much higher of course) But still, I don't think a lost game is going to have as much impact on the company's survival as Aliens or Stormlands had.
 
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Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
It's funny how games are or aren't art depending on situation. When players complain about DLCs, endless stagnating franchises, exclusivity or multiple platforms, it's just a product to make money and people are fools for thinking otherwise. If they complain about the game's plot, writing or graphics style, suddenly it's all about freedom of the creators' artistic expression.

More on topic, I think Avellone is sort of a prisoner of his niche fame. Nobody wants him to turn their mass-appealing product into another PS:T, but everyone wants a little bit of him for grognards' stamp of approval. "If it's good enough for Avellone to write 50 lines for and not trash it on Twitter, it's good enough for me to play for 50 hours."
 

Rev

Arcane
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
1,180
More on topic, I think Avellone is sort of a prisoner of his niche fame. Nobody wants him to turn their mass-appealing product into another PS:T, but everyone wants a little bit of him for grognards' stamp of approval. "If it's good enough for Avellone to write 50 lines for and not trash it on Twitter, it's good enough for me to play for 50 hours."

Except he doesn't trash any game and has said good things even on very controversial products (like him being jealous over Siege of Dragonspear's writing), so everyone knows not to rely too much on what he says over other people's works.

Inviato dal mio D5803 utilizzando Tapatalk
 

Cosmo

Arcane
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,388
Project: Eternity
The 90s had the best of both worlds, because the more creative and experimental projects were still on par with the big hits, so they were more accessible. It had some things that won't happen again anytime soon.
To use MCA as an example: which modern publisher would give 2 years, free rein and 50 people to a young developer so he could lead an ambitious narrative-driven PC-exclusive RPG based on a cult D&D setting? That's without considering the right proportions. A game that could be to 2015 what PS:T was to 1999 would need at least twice the money and the team size.

Two things :
- yes in the 90's we reached an apex in RPG quality, but it was an organic (and therefore impossible to recreate as is) emanation of its time ; what we see now with the supposed RPG Renaissance not quite being up to par with this era is more struggle will be necessary to reach a similar situation
- as this "revolution" was backed up and made possible by cheaper designing tools (Unity for example), like Avellone i wish for even better tools and a general effort in streamlining the very complex art of RPG scripting ; is it even possible, i don't know...
 
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Q

Augur
Patron
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
199
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2
Can he just write some interactive fiction for iPhones?
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Except he doesn't trash any game and has said good things even on very controversial products (like him being jealous over Siege of Dragonspear's writing), so everyone knows not to rely too much on what he says over other people's works.

Exactly. He's doing his job for companies and avoids making enemies in the business, and people mistake that for genuine interest and approval.
Until this perception changes, the most efficient use of developers like him will be token contracts.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,972
Can he just write some interactive fiction for iPhones?
Why not? he already did it with PST on PC and it turned out alright. He would make a killing writing more CYOAs.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,839
Pathfinder: Wrath
People are confusing the artwork with art itself and that's a misnomer. What is an artwork then? An artwork is defined by the artist and the artist is defined by the artwork. It's a circle that needs a third term to define them and that is art. But what is art? Now it gets interesting. Art can only be shown to us by the artwork, but artwork can only be defined by art, so it's another circle. Does that mean we are at a loss? No, this is what is called a hermeneutic circle where our understanding of each term becomes greater the longer we go in the circle. Now I can go on a tangent describing the whole process to figure everything out, but I'm just going to give you a short version. Art is in a constant motion and tension with itself and is something that reveals some truth (aletheia) of its object. We've seen this with games, the first thing that comes to mind is KotOR2. It doesn't matter what the truth is about, it's that it's truth. If someone is interested in this you can check out The Origin of the Work of Art by Heidegger, I know I give it as an example a lot, but it's a really fundamental work that broadens our understanding. It can also explain it better than a few sentences in a thread post lulz.

When people debate whether something is art or not they are actually debating the merits of the individual pieces they are talking about. Art has rules and boundaries it operates on, it also has a structure and a concept/idea behind it. Video games fulfill all of these qualities. Video games are "art" in the same way opera and film are, but not in the sense of gesamtkunstwerk, that's different. Does play constitute art? I don't think so - playing a video game is somewhat like playing a musical instrument and that isn't considered art in of itself. Even if I play a Mozart sonata horribly and out-of-time the value of the sonata is not diminished. The same thing with a video game. You (general you) shouldn't attach too much value on the word itself. It doesn't matter what we classify it in the end, what matters is whether video games can show us something important and meaningful. I don't know if it can, that doesn't mean we should be bogged down by surface definitions and we shouldn't try.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
Is this the MCA thread, right?

Two recordings from 2006 at some Australian non-gaming conference.



Chris Avellone and Tim Smith Writing for Games

US games writer Chris Avellone in conversation with Tim Smith, Writing the Story of the Future semianr, Melbourne, November 2006.




Writing the Story of the Future, Panel, Melbourne 2006

A panel discussion at Writing the Story of the Future with Chris Avellone, Christy Dena, Simon Hopkinson, Jim Shomos and Jackie Turnure.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
My two cents:
1. It took less time to make experiments, which means they were cheaper. Cheaper experiments are easier to pitch.
2. The market had a shitload of small and mid-sized publishers. They couldn't compete by simply doing what everyone else was doing, they had to stand out somehow.
3. Game development was not mainstream and required knowledge that wasn't easy to access, which is why I think we got the eccentric geniuses you mention.
4. Cutting edge games were relatively cheaper and developed faster than they are today. This allowed devs to make "AAA" games that still managed to experiment and break new ground. The other advantage is that other studios can pick up on trends much faster.

The post-Wolfenstein/Doom period really caught my eye when I read about it. The rate at which devs made progress in the genre was astounding when compared to modern games.
Doom came out on December 10, 1993. By December 1994 we had Descent, which added six degrees of freedom, (almost) full 3D graphics and advanced lighting. Marathon came out in the same month, with a bigger focus on storytelling and adding freelook, dual-wielding and alt-fire modes. In February 1995 there was Dark Forces, which featured cutscenes, crouching, platforming, etc.
June 1996 Quake comes out and kills the sprite-based FPS. Less than 4 years after Wolfenstein and Ultima Underworld and the genre was completely different already.

I think WoW is a good example on the opposite end. Huge hit in 2004, many major publishers decide they want a piece of that pie. The most ambitious WoW clone was TOR, which took 5 years to make and was released 7 years after WoW. Not to mention it was the most expensive game ever at that point. TESO, the other major competitor, was started in 2007 and released in 2014, a full decade late. By the time it came out the subscription-based business model was already dying and WoW was in decline.

The 90s had the best of both worlds, because the more creative and experimental projects were still on par with the big hits, so they were more accessible. It had some things that won't happen again anytime soon.
To use MCA as an example: which modern publisher would give 2 years, free rein and 50 people to a young developer so he could lead an ambitious narrative-driven PC-exclusive RPG based on a cult D&D setting? That's without considering the right proportions. A game that could be to 2015 what PS:T was to 1999 would need at least twice the money and the team size. If it sold the same ~400k, the young director would probably get fired or demoted.

A game doesn't have to be pretty and have AAA production values to be just as good today, I know. I'm also aware that it's easier than ever to make or modify a game nowadays. However, games back then had both things going for them, a luxury 2016 indie games don't have.
On one hand, the small and mid-sized publisher graveyard doesn't help. On the other hand, the industry has changed in positive ways, too. We have crowdfunding and digital distribution, so who knows...

5. There were also a lot of low fruits back in the 80s and 90s. It was easier to stand out then, as there were simply less video games and therefore less video game cliches, both in terms of story and design. It's not easy to make a completely new shooting game today because shots are, all that's within technological limits have already been tried.

Personally, to me the biggest difference between games today and games back then is the cost of art. Back in the 80s and 90s, one artist could produce the art for an entire commercial game. Even a programmer could do it, which is why there were so many small developers. This is not the case today - teams of dozens of artists and even hundreds of artists are needed to produce today's AAA games. This is one of the main reasons why AAA developers can no longer experiment.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
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Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
People are confusing the artwork with art itself and that's a misnomer. What is an artwork then? An artwork is defined by the artist and the artist is defined by the artwork. It's a circle that needs a third term to define them and that is art. But what is art? Now it gets interesting. Art can only be shown to us by the artwork, but artwork can only be defined by art, so it's another circle. Does that mean we are at a loss? No, this is what is called a hermeneutic circle where our understanding of each term becomes greater the longer we go in the circle. Now I can go on a tangent describing the whole process to figure everything out, but I'm just going to give you a short version. Art is in a constant motion and tension with itself and is something that reveals some truth (aletheia) of its object. We've seen this with games, the first thing that comes to mind is KotOR2. It doesn't matter what the truth is about, it's that it's truth. If someone is interested in this you can check out The Origin of the Work of Art by Heidegger, I know I give it as an example a lot, but it's a really fundamental work that broadens our understanding. It can also explain it better than a few sentences in a thread post lulz.

When people debate whether something is art or not they are actually debating the merits of the individual pieces they are talking about. Art has rules and boundaries it operates on, it also has a structure and a concept/idea behind it. Video games fulfill all of these qualities. Video games are "art" in the same way opera and film are, but not in the sense of gesamtkunstwerk, that's different. Does play constitute art? I don't think so - playing a video game is somewhat like playing a musical instrument and that isn't considered art in of itself. Even if I play a Mozart sonata horribly and out-of-time the value of the sonata is not diminished. The same thing with a video game. You (general you) shouldn't attach too much value on the word itself. It doesn't matter what we classify it in the end, what matters is whether video games can show us something important and meaningful. I don't know if it can, that doesn't mean we should be bogged down by surface definitions and we shouldn't try.
Saving this post for when I have insomnia
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,839
Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm just pointing out that this debate is far more complicated than simple conjectures and people hand-waving the issue just because "it's a game" have a lot more to think about. I really don't care whether games are art, I'm interested only in the truth.
 
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Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Very....odd, but interesting panel from GDC 2015.

Rules of the Game: Five Tricks of Highly Effective Designers

You can navigate using the sidebar and skip to MCA's part: "Look for the Silver Lining". It's basically MCA talking about how most of the time there's something interesting to get ideas from in anything, no matter how shitty the film, book, or whatever.

He said his inspiration was that "every wednesday at Obsidian my two friends - my only two friends - Brian Menze and Anthony Davis... we go to the comic book store and have long conversations about movies and TV shows that we hate".
Then he "defends" Cube, Elementals, "I, Frankenstein", The Darkest Hour and....Twilight. It's a humurous, pretty short presentation (~10min long) with a lot of stuff that was new to me, at least. For instance, it seems obvious in retrospect, but the Modron Maze was directly inspired by Cube.
He does have a point most of the time, although I disagree when he says Cube is as bad as I, Frankenstein. :M
 

Anthony Davis

Blizzard Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,100
Location
California
Very....odd, but interesting panel from GDC 2015.

Rules of the Game: Five Tricks of Highly Effective Designers

You can navigate using the sidebar and skip to MCA's part: "Look for the Silver Lining". It's basically MCA talking about how most of the time there's something interesting to get ideas from in anything, no matter how shitty the film, book, or whatever.

He said his inspiration was that "every wednesday at Obsidian my two friends - my only two friends - Brian Menze and Anthony Davis... we go to the comic book store and have long conversations about movies and TV shows that we hate".
Then he "defends" Cube, Elementals, "I, Frankenstein", The Darkest Hour and....Twilight. It's a humurous, pretty short presentation (~10min long) with a lot of stuff that was new to me, at least. For instance, it seems obvious in retrospect, but the Modron Maze was directly inspired by Cube.
He does have a point most of the time, although I disagree when he says Cube is as bad as I, Frankenstein. :M

I miss Comic Wednesdays with Chris and Brian. :(
 

pippin

Guest
- my only two friends -

raining_david_tennant_nosedrip.gif
 

karfhud

Augur
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Messages
176
Location
Smoldering Corpse Disco Den
Very....odd, but interesting panel from GDC 2015.

Rules of the Game: Five Tricks of Highly Effective Designers

You can navigate using the sidebar and skip to MCA's part: "Look for the Silver Lining". It's basically MCA talking about how most of the time there's something interesting to get ideas from in anything, no matter how shitty the film, book, or whatever.

He said his inspiration was that "every wednesday at Obsidian my two friends - my only two friends - Brian Menze and Anthony Davis... we go to the comic book store and have long conversations about movies and TV shows that we hate".
Then he "defends" Cube, Elementals, "I, Frankenstein", The Darkest Hour and....Twilight. It's a humurous, pretty short presentation (~10min long) with a lot of stuff that was new to me, at least. For instance, it seems obvious in retrospect, but the Modron Maze was directly inspired by Cube.
He does have a point most of the time, although I disagree when he says Cube is as bad as I, Frankenstein. :M

Thank you for that! Good stuff.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
He's getting the celebrity treatment there. 2 autograph sessions and 3 panels.
 

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