CKII is released.

[Kane]

Will there be an AAR in playground?

i am not good at that kind of stuff, but if someone else wants to write one, I can c&p it.

 

[newcomer]

Kyaaa~ I stumbled on this thread

I'll upload some picture of my empire soon

MyEmpire_Part1

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MyEmpire_Part1_Bottom

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MyEmpire_Part2

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HowIsThatPossible

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Me

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Dynasty

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HowIsThatPossible_Dynasty

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Culture_1

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Culture_2

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Religion_1

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Religion_2

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RulersPlayed

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Phew, that was a lot of work

 

[newcomer]

CK2 multi player, hell yeah.

Any is it just me or do the mongols have a way to easy time conquering very large kingdoms. Due to how easily they can acquire 100% war score in comparison to th size of the realm. Compare this to my recent game.
[...]
Yeah let's just surrender the entire huge ass kingdom just because they took a couple of piss poor border provinces. We need something like the Ck1 holy war were they only take what they actually capture.

As a user of a similar imbalanced CB (JIHAD), I feel the same way; I only need to conquer 5-6 HRE counties to make them surrender Italy (and other dejure kingdoms)
For Byzantine, it only took me 3 counties to make them surrender Byzantium

 

[XenomorphII]

i am planning another grand codex crusader game once the expansion hits, any interest?

Hell Yes !

Me too!

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

CK2 multi player, hell yeah.

Any is it just me or do the mongols have a way to easy time conquering very large kingdoms. Due to how easily they can acquire 100% war score in comparison to th size of the realm. Compare this to my recent game.
[...]
Yeah let's just surrender the entire huge ass kingdom just because they took a couple of piss poor border provinces. We need something like the Ck1 holy war were they only take what they actually capture.

As a user of a similar imbalanced CB (JIHAD), I feel the same way; I only need to conquer 5-6 HRE counties to make them surrender Italy (and other dejure kingdoms)
For Byzantine, it only took me 3 counties to make them surrender Byzantium

Right, off to work for me then (once Sword of Islam comes out).

 

[Ulminati]

It cannot come out soon enough. I desire to show my many wives the "sword of islam" and bring peace to the infidels!

Codexu Akbar!

 

[Kayerts]

Decadence lies at the heart of the Sword of Islam. It's what really separates Muslims from Christians; not that Christians could not be perceived as being individually decadent, but there was not the same type of friction between clans and tribes. Thus, decadence affects the whole dynasty. Dynasties start out with 25% decadence, which has no effect one way or the other. Decadence increases by having indolent, unlanded males of your dynasty kicking about, depending on their rank and the total rank of all titles held by members of your dynasty. Dynasty members who give decadence are listed in a new list in the Religion View (well, they are immoral.) You stop them from gaining decadence primarily by giving them enough land, imprisoning them or simply killing them off. You only lose decadence when dynasty members fight in battles and sieges, or through certain events. The decadence level affects the morale damage your demesne troops take and the tax income from your demesne. At 75% decadence or more, there is a very real risk of a more dynamic tribe riding in from the wastes to depose you and your whole House (this is one serious rebellion...)

I like the idea of dynastic moral authority, and I also imagine that combining open succession with family feuds and forced distribution of land could create some interesting dynamics. (E.g., while you're off campaigning against the infidels with your favored son, his brother engages in a highly unbrolike backstab, taking one of his duchies. Whoops, now asshole bro is your heir!) But there seems to be some heavy-handedness in the way they're enforcing it ("camel raiders out of fucking nowhere!").

 

[Malakal]

Not out of nowhere, out of your provinces. Considering the timeframe rulers had small control over their lands at best. Maghreb nations especially couldnt really stop those "camel riders".

Also seems like a good way of rebalancing muslims and giving Iberian kingdoms a fighting chance.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And it will mean more Unfortunate Accidents.

 

[Kayerts]

About rebalancing--do Muslims really need a nerf? I haven't played a southern European country in 1.05, but my impression was that 1.05 was pretty hard on Islam as it was.

The Paradox forum thread made a good point about wives--since it sounds like your extraneous sons are straight-up liabilities, having your sultan marry one 16-year-old and three 50+ chicks seems like the way to go.

 

[Ulminati]

Did they say how multiple wives affects the wife-gives-you-half-her-stats-as-bonus deal? do you pick a wife to give you boosts? Will it be whoever was your wife the longest? Will whichever wife has the highest stat in a category count? Will they average out over all wives?

I dunno about muslim balance. I've yet to see a crusade against muslims actually succeed without me sending lots and lots of mercenaries down there from Denmark. (The scottish heresy got stomped the fuck over though).

 

[Malakal]

Only the FIRST wife will give you a stat bonus but all of them give alliances.

And yes, muslims almost always win Iberia. Perhaps in other areas they arent as strong but Iberian catholics definitely need a buff.

For me BE should be weakened or muslims should be strengthened in the east, weakened in the west. Turks should be a bigger player.

 

[newcomer]

About rebalancing--do Muslims really need a nerf? I haven't played a southern European country in 1.05, but my impression was that 1.05 was pretty hard on Islam as it was.

The Paradox forum thread made a good point about wives--since it sounds like your extraneous sons are straight-up liabilities, having your sultan marry one 16-year-old and three 50+ chicks seems like the way to go.

They do; after 1.05 all the muslim emirs (& mauretania) combined their efforts to gank the iberian catholics (who are fighting each other for their claims on the other kingdom).
And France have a harder time to reconquer them because the emirs unite against France. HRE is still quite strong to push back the emirs...

For a proof that the muslims really need nerf, why not see my muslim empire on this post?

Btw, I see that the caliph in the preview picture in the dev diary is a duke. Is the caliphate rank nerfed from an emperor to a duke?

 

[Raghar]

The Paradox forum thread made a good point about wives--since it sounds like your extraneous sons are straight-up liabilities, having your sultan marry one 16-year-old and three 50+ chicks seems like the way to go.

Shouldn't they have penalty when they would marry unknown person? Only 14 - 16 years old chicks should be married without title.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Only the FIRST wife will give you a stat bonus but all of them give alliances.

And yes, muslims almost always win Iberia. Perhaps in other areas they arent as strong but Iberian catholics definitely need a buff.

For me BE should be weakened or muslims should be strengthened in the east, weakened in the west. Turks should be a bigger player.

Absolutely. The biggest issue in CK2 is that BE isn't a rotting carcass waiting to collapse and HRE isn't a paper tiger in terms of aggression. Both were directly responsible to what led to the over-buffed Muslims.

 

[XenomorphII]

Absolutely. The biggest issue in CK2 is that BE isn't a rotting carcass waiting to collapse and HRE isn't a paper tiger in terms of aggression. Both were directly responsible to what led to the over-buffed Muslims.

Except the BE was by no means a rotting carcass in 1066 nor was the HRE that weak. The BE weren't the power they had been, but they certainly shouldn't be a pushover, as much of their problem was an extended period of bad leadership coupled with infighting (at the worst possible moments usually). The HRE was by no means as weak as what you are thinking either. First off, it shouldn't be railroaded into becoming the HRE that we came to know at the end of this period (a highly decentralized "empire" that existed mostly on paper). If things had played out differently it could have centralized to some degree.

That said though, I do think that ANY ruler that has no crown authority should be little more than a glorified duke ("vassals" don't automatically come to help you and you have little/no control over them in an offensive war, perhaps you should have to ask nicely for them to mobilize ala CK1?) and that it should be MUCH harder to raise it (which should in theory would help with the HRE without it just being some damn arbitrary penalty, which I do not like). The Byzzies too I think are too strong though (but again they should by no means be the pushover you seem to think) I cannot think of what would help them.

Perhaps higher crown authorities should be made "better". Give more bonuses to make the higher levels worthwhile and more attractive, and perhaps make direct open rebellion less likely (representing people being afraid of challenging I more powerful monarch who could bring the world down on your head if you aren't careful), but at the same time the have it lead to much higher plotting and lots of assassinating in realm (and perhaps also that if a foreign adventure is going on they might decide to abandon you on the field or something along those lines). Also from what I know of how the Byzantine Empire worked at this point, they really should get do a BE dlc (ala Sword of Islam) because it was quiet different to the feudalism that was seen in varying degrees in the rest of Europe.

 

[Malakal]

It doesnt matter if BE wasnt a rotting carcass at the 1066 start date. Its political class was entirely rotten and decaying. Manzirkert couldnt have happened if it wasnt for this. A nation that lacks guidance cant be competent and it is in no way represented in CK2.

 

[XenomorphII]

It doesnt matter if BE wasnt a rotting carcass at the 1066 start date. Its political class was entirely rotten and decaying. Manzirkert couldnt have happened if it wasnt for this. A nation that lacks guidance cant be competent and it is in no way represented in CK2.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but that was exactly what I meant. The Empire's biggest enemy should be itself. I tossed out the idea on changing higher crown authority because it seemed like it might help boost the infighting aspects of the Empire which is almost always at absolute. As to the other part, I don't know how one would replicate in game the incompetence and bad leadership without just plopping down some modifier that says you are a part of the BE so penalties.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

It doesnt matter if BE wasnt a rotting carcass at the 1066 start date. Its political class was entirely rotten and decaying. Manzirkert couldnt have happened if it wasnt for this. A nation that lacks guidance cant be competent and it is in no way represented in CK2.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but that was exactly what I meant. The Empire's biggest enemy should be itself. I tossed out the idea on changing higher crown authority because it seemed like it might help boost the infighting aspects of the Empire which is almost always at absolute. As to the other part, I don't know how one would replicate in game the incompetence and bad leadership without just plopping down some modifier that says you are a part of the BE so penalties.

I tried setting up relation penalties, but quite simply the easiest way to handle it is a generic penalty modifier to levies and taxes if above a certain size (relationship penalties lead to total catastrophe). I already solved HRE situation by giving a hard limit on the maximum Laws they can possess, which in turn I intend to further balance in the future by reducing the relation benefits the Emperor receives from the non-existant hold he has (already removed the ridiculous Elective bonus to relation, while also making it impossible to remove Elective from the HRE title).

 

[XenomorphII]

I tried setting up relation penalties, but quite simply the easiest way to handle it is a generic penalty modifier to levies and taxes if above a certain size (relationship penalties lead to total catastrophe). I already solved HRE situation by giving a hard limit on the maximum Laws they can possess, which in turn I intend to further balance in the future by reducing the relation benefits the Emperor receives from the non-existant hold he has (already removed the ridiculous Elective bonus to relation, while also making it impossible to remove Elective from the HRE title).

That isn't solving the problem in the HRE though. Well it does in a way, but like I said, I generally dislike arbitrary "oh you are X, in that case screw you, you get: PENALTIES!!!" for fixing these things. Making the HRE only ever able to be elective is something I strongly disagree with, mostly because I don't think the Empire necessarily had to go the path it did. That being said though I do like the idea of a nerf on the bonus to relations from elective, it always struck me as over the top.

Anyway my biggest overarching problems with CK2 at present (and I am curious what others think) are:

1) Crown authority needs to be reworked, having low/no authority should leave you pretty much on your own most of the time , and changing authority levels should be difficult and take time to implement during which time things could happen that cause it to fail to happen. Also higher authority levels should be made more appealing to a player. There should be trade offs and right now anything above medium is pretty bad. I really feel that through changes in crown authority and perhaps adding some other laws (so it isn't just crown authority, but maybe a combination of things that make up crown authority?) the overpoweredness of the BE and HRE (and for that matter any other large empire sized realm) could be significantly diminished.

2) Warscore calculation and levies replenishment. I would say that the biggest chunk of warscore in CK2 should probably come from victory on the field of battle. Add on to this a change in levy reinforcement rate as well (so that a few months after your army is wiped out it isn't back up and running again). Too many times have I managed to get major territorial concessions after occupying 3 or 4 provinces and never having met the enemy in battle, and too long have I managed to make the AI give up by just being a stubborn ass and fighting excessively long bloody wars with my infinite armies. Of course the downside to the levy change would be that the AI would need to be much more careful about how it wages wars. Also, just to be clear, I like the ticking warscore and that he who holds the disputed territory gets gradual boosts to it, I just think it should be harder to get 100% warscore on an enemy without ever having engaged his armies and while only taking what are border areas to him.

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

On the topic of the BE as it currently stands I feel that current game mechanics are not sufficient to depict the situation in the BE at the time of the game. I would think however that something akin to the decadence mechanic in the Sword of Islam DLC/expansion seems like something that could very well be used to change the BE for the better. It appears to be for muslims only, but if it could potentially be adapted and applied to them as well and with the ruling family starting with a quite high decadence score which if I remember correctly greatly decreased troop morale among other effects. It would greatly weaken their initial start quite possibly losing a great deal of land to the turks. And if the ruling house is over thrown or gets it shit together I could depending on how the mechanic is balanced and implemented lead to a resurgence similar to the restoration by the Komnenos.

 

[XenomorphII]

On the topic of the BE as it currently stands I feel that current game mechanics are not sufficient to depict the situation in the BE at the time of the game. I would think however that something akin to the decadence mechanic in the Sword of Islam DLC/expansion seems like something that could very well be used to change the BE for the better. It appears to be for muslims only, but if it could potentially be adapted and applied to them as well and with the ruling family starting with a quite high decadence score which if I remember correctly greatly decreased troop morale among other effects. It would greatly weaken their initial start quite possibly losing a great deal of land to the turks. And if the ruling house is over thrown or gets it shit together I could depending on how the mechanic is balanced and implemented lead to a resurgence similar to the restoration by the Komnenos.

You get a brofist, and a "damn that's a good idea" from me.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

On the topic of the BE as it currently stands I feel that current game mechanics are not sufficient to depict the situation in the BE at the time of the game. I would think however that something akin to the decadence mechanic in the Sword of Islam DLC/expansion seems like something that could very well be used to change the BE for the better. It appears to be for muslims only, but if it could potentially be adapted and applied to them as well and with the ruling family starting with a quite high decadence score which if I remember correctly greatly decreased troop morale among other effects. It would greatly weaken their initial start quite possibly losing a great deal of land to the turks. And if the ruling house is over thrown or gets it shit together I could depending on how the mechanic is balanced and implemented lead to a resurgence similar to the restoration by the Komnenos.

This will depend entirely on whether or not the Decadence mechanic is hard-coded (not possible at all), religion-linked (not possible or then all Orthodox get the mechanic) or appliable individually. Also depends on how "Camel Raiders" work.

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

Yes I guess we will have to see, though it would be interesting if it could be moded. I would be rather sad if it would not work since it seems to me that such a mechanic would be greatly useful.

 

[Kayerts]

I suspect most of us would be happy with a game in which there isn't so much historical determinism that the Turks always overrun Anatolia, but neither do they always die in disgraceful failure, like they do now. I think the ERE starting with high crown authority is at the very least a peculiar reading of history.

Transforming the HRE into a centralized imperial state would've required some fairly deep cultural shifts, and I don't see a way to make sense of that historically without changing some things before the timeframe of the game. Friction with the papacy + the early rise of the bourgeoisie + Carolingian tradition of strong vassals + no really compelling external threat = centralization is a hard sell. But if you had, e.g., a unified pagan superstate rising out of the Baltic, then sure, it could happen.

Merk's idea is interesting. I think the idea of decadence as an exclusively Muslim thing is meant to correspond to the accountability imposed on Muslim rulers by sharia, among other things (i.e., Islam is a lot more explicit on what it means to be a good ruler than Christianity is), so I'm not sure how well that exact mechanic maps over to the ERE. But something similar would be good.

I agree with Xeno's ideas; I'd also like to see:

3.) Mechanics for personal participation in wars. One of the bigger issues with expeditionary war (e.g., crusading), and why it wasn't the royal road to glory that it is in CK2, was that having the ruler out of the country for extended periods was a big deal in the feudal era. Leave home for too long and the nobles left behind will gain some necessary autonomy relevant to the administration of your realm in your absence. On the other hand, if you delegate the business of conquest to a vassal, you shouldn't expect him to just hand over the full spoils of the war he won.

4.) Assassinations are still overpowered. Since murder plots are apparently being reworked in SoI, maybe it's time to drop the assassination option from the diplomacy menu entirely? At the very least, you shouldn't be able to conduct a genetic purge of an entire bloodline like you can now.