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D&D 5E Discussion

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,230
Oh boy. Can't have those half-orcs, I guess.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...shedding-race-in-gaming-heres-why-it-matters/

Dungeons & Dragons Is Shedding ‘Race’ in Gaming. Here’s Why It Matters​

The nerd culture powerhouse is rebranding its elves, dwarfs and orcs, previously referred to as races, and moving towards use of the term species
Dungeons & Dragons now reigns as a cultural powerhouse, the OG of tabletop role-playing. In its 50th anniversary year, the storied fantasy role-playing game is now making a long-overdue, and noteworthy, correction to its scientifically benighted treatment of race.

Attacked by religious figures for supposed demonic ties in the 1980s (part of a broader trend in that decade termed the “Satanic panic”), the game and its trappings now rule popular culture. You sit at a table with some pizza, dice and friends, and collectively engage with a story wherein you are a warrior or wizard out on a tale of heroism in a sword-and-sorcery world. What’s new is that in September, the game’s owner, Wizards of the Coast, will release a “Player’s Handbook” that changes the terminology of its character’s physiological types, previously referred to as races, and replace them with the term species.


Announced in 2022, the company’s action was motivated by a view that species is “a term that didn’t require explanation and that highlighted the fantastical nature of the game’s nonhuman options,” according to Jeremy Crawford, game director of Dungeons & Dragons.

Wizards of the Coast should be congratulated for the move, both for the company’s stated reasons and, scientifically, as a correction from the long-running error of describing species as races. Kids playing a fun game will no longer pick up a botched, eugenical notion of race alongside their 20-sided dice.

Some players welcomed the change and the rationale behind the shift to species. However, others felt insulted, arguing Wizards of the Coast was giving into a “woke” mentality, fearful of invoking the word race. Still others appreciated the move but felt it didn’t go far enough. They recommended the removal of other material that could be deemed offensive. This last group is highly critical of the biological essentialism, parroting scientific and evolutionary language to explain marked social and cultural differences between groups, that comes with the use of terms like race to distinguish between humans and others like elves, dwarves and orcs, particularly because of stereotyped real-world associations made at times to these fantasy species.


As a social scientist who studies male-dominated subcultures, I have done research that put me in spaces where I delved into reactions to issues of race in gaming. A key question is this: Given how charged the term race has been, why would games use it to discuss differences that have nothing to do with the way we traditionally use the word? Dungeons & Dragons is not the only game to use the term in this way; so have many other digital and analog fantasy offerings. But the celebrated game, created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in 1973, arguably set the standard that these others have followed. Gygax and Arneson leaned heavily on popular fiction and folklore to construct their game world, and links to fantasy author J.R.R. Tolkien’s works, which were first penned in an age of colonial racism, are undeniable. In his Lord of the Rings trilogy, Tolkien commonly used the word race to characterize differences among humans, elves, hobbits—all of the societies that populated his novels. Because this was familiar territory for so-called sword-and-sorcery fans, the creators of Dungeons & Dragons simply co-opted it, as it would create a recognizable point of reference for potential gamers.

So biological essentialism ran deep in the game. In its earliest versions, the authors distinguished between humans and other groups, collectively called “demihumans.” Notably, players who chose to be dwarves, elves, halflings or other demihumans had limits that humans did not have. They were lesser beings. They could only have certain professions in the game (referred to as classes), could only progress so far, and had built-in limitations (for example, sturdy but somewhat slow and dour dwarves had constitution advantages, but limits on their dexterity and charisma). Further, all demihumans had some form of seeing in the dark, which marked them as something in between humans and animals.

The most often cited element of biological determinism in the early game, however, was a table created in the first edition of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game that dictated which demihuman cultures would get along easily or have a natural dislike. Elves and dwarves had antipathy, by fiat. Neither liked half-orcs. And gnomes for some reason only tolerated half-elves.

This was often discussed in the same breath of “evil races,” as different species were assigned an overall cultural moral stance, with some—such as orcs—deemed inherently evil. Particularly since the influx of new fans with the fourth edition of Dungeons & Dragons, these ideas were roundly criticized by scholars and others as reinforcing a sense of “nature not nurture” in terms of racism, discrimination and morality, echoing human genetics’ origins in white supremacy, marking some groups as inherently “bad.” Scholars such as Benjamin Carpenter of the University of East Anglia have noted that the races labeled as “evil” had analogues that were sometimes associated with real-world racial and ethnic minority groups, essentially smuggling old prejudices and stereotypes through a game.


Throughout the years, different editions of Dungeons & Dragons have reconsidered some of these components of essentialism. Level limitations for different racial groups were removed along with gaming stat limitations on nonhuman species, providing different systems to explain their advantages and disadvantages. Wizards of the Coast has reworked the game’s system of morality, called alignment, in recent editions, and eliminated the concept of evil races. The fifth edition and 2024 modification reintroduced species like orcs and dark elves in a manner that pushes back on their historical characterizations as evil cultures and inherently “bad” species. Social media voices, such as the Slovenly Trulls podcast, are discussing other game components that might need to be reconsidered, like misogyny and discrimination.

However, as someone who studies social structure, I can say that, in the gaming world, all this is a first step in a marathon. Significant numbers of role-playing game systems persist with race to distinguish between “humans” and “others.” Some gamers still loudly protest any change and continue to use race as it was in the past.

Nostalgia and persistence are powerful; they both have a hand in the continued success of Dungeons & Dragons. But they also hamper the possibility of change, even for the right reasons. Sometimes even fantasy games should look to a brighter future, rather than a glittering past.

This is an opinion and analysis article, and the views expressed by the author or authors are not necessarily those of Scientific American.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
11,847
Location
USSR
How are they removing the term race? Drow will still be a race of the elf species, for example.
 

Dark Souls II

Educated
Joined
Jul 13, 2024
Messages
152
I'm 100% with Grand Wizards of the Coast on this one. Can't wait till the society as a whole sheds the obsolete concept of "race" and we can finally acknowledge that niggers are a separate species.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
29,208
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Lariko.Sch

Literate
Joined
Jul 29, 2024
Messages
13
Location
Brazil

Lariko.Sch

Literate
Joined
Jul 29, 2024
Messages
13
Location
Brazil

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,446
Lol they gave arcane casters a healing spell.
Wizards even more OP and now getting into cleric territory, yay? Nope.
https://rpgbot.net/2024-dnd-5e-tran...nt-in-the-new-players-handbook/#spell-changes

Full list of 5.24 changes. Notably no chages to Forcecage, no changes to Spirit Guardians, rogues now can't pick Arcane Lock. This edition was made by casterfags.
it's almost like martial classes just straight up sucked for years, when compared to casters or even half-casters for that matter
When did this start? In 3.5? It seems from that point fighters are a class you dip into to get the armor profiencies and that's it, if you dont' go for a martial variant that also gives you spells.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,585
Oh boy. Can't have those half-orcs, I guess.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...shedding-race-in-gaming-heres-why-it-matters/

Dungeons & Dragons Is Shedding ‘Race’ in Gaming. Here’s Why It Matters​

The nerd culture powerhouse is rebranding its elves, dwarfs and orcs, previously referred to as races, and moving towards use of the term species
Dungeons & Dragons now reigns as a cultural powerhouse, the OG of tabletop role-playing. In its 50th anniversary year, the storied fantasy role-playing game is now making a long-overdue, and noteworthy, correction to its scientifically benighted treatment of race.

Attacked by religious figures for supposed demonic ties in the 1980s (part of a broader trend in that decade termed the “Satanic panic”), the game and its trappings now rule popular culture. You sit at a table with some pizza, dice and friends, and collectively engage with a story wherein you are a warrior or wizard out on a tale of heroism in a sword-and-sorcery world. What’s new is that in September, the game’s owner, Wizards of the Coast, will release a “Player’s Handbook” that changes the terminology of its character’s physiological types, previously referred to as races, and replace them with the term species.


Announced in 2022, the company’s action was motivated by a view that species is “a term that didn’t require explanation and that highlighted the fantastical nature of the game’s nonhuman options,” according to Jeremy Crawford, game director of Dungeons & Dragons.

Wizards of the Coast should be congratulated for the move, both for the company’s stated reasons and, scientifically, as a correction from the long-running error of describing species as races. Kids playing a fun game will no longer pick up a botched, eugenical notion of race alongside their 20-sided dice.

Some players welcomed the change and the rationale behind the shift to species. However, others felt insulted, arguing Wizards of the Coast was giving into a “woke” mentality, fearful of invoking the word race. Still others appreciated the move but felt it didn’t go far enough. They recommended the removal of other material that could be deemed offensive. This last group is highly critical of the biological essentialism, parroting scientific and evolutionary language to explain marked social and cultural differences between groups, that comes with the use of terms like race to distinguish between humans and others like elves, dwarves and orcs, particularly because of stereotyped real-world associations made at times to these fantasy species.


As a social scientist who studies male-dominated subcultures, I have done research that put me in spaces where I delved into reactions to issues of race in gaming. A key question is this: Given how charged the term race has been, why would games use it to discuss differences that have nothing to do with the way we traditionally use the word? Dungeons & Dragons is not the only game to use the term in this way; so have many other digital and analog fantasy offerings. But the celebrated game, created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in 1973, arguably set the standard that these others have followed. Gygax and Arneson leaned heavily on popular fiction and folklore to construct their game world, and links to fantasy author J.R.R. Tolkien’s works, which were first penned in an age of colonial racism, are undeniable. In his Lord of the Rings trilogy, Tolkien commonly used the word race to characterize differences among humans, elves, hobbits—all of the societies that populated his novels. Because this was familiar territory for so-called sword-and-sorcery fans, the creators of Dungeons & Dragons simply co-opted it, as it would create a recognizable point of reference for potential gamers.

So biological essentialism ran deep in the game. In its earliest versions, the authors distinguished between humans and other groups, collectively called “demihumans.” Notably, players who chose to be dwarves, elves, halflings or other demihumans had limits that humans did not have. They were lesser beings. They could only have certain professions in the game (referred to as classes), could only progress so far, and had built-in limitations (for example, sturdy but somewhat slow and dour dwarves had constitution advantages, but limits on their dexterity and charisma). Further, all demihumans had some form of seeing in the dark, which marked them as something in between humans and animals.

The most often cited element of biological determinism in the early game, however, was a table created in the first edition of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game that dictated which demihuman cultures would get along easily or have a natural dislike. Elves and dwarves had antipathy, by fiat. Neither liked half-orcs. And gnomes for some reason only tolerated half-elves.

This was often discussed in the same breath of “evil races,” as different species were assigned an overall cultural moral stance, with some—such as orcs—deemed inherently evil. Particularly since the influx of new fans with the fourth edition of Dungeons & Dragons, these ideas were roundly criticized by scholars and others as reinforcing a sense of “nature not nurture” in terms of racism, discrimination and morality, echoing human genetics’ origins in white supremacy, marking some groups as inherently “bad.” Scholars such as Benjamin Carpenter of the University of East Anglia have noted that the races labeled as “evil” had analogues that were sometimes associated with real-world racial and ethnic minority groups, essentially smuggling old prejudices and stereotypes through a game.


Throughout the years, different editions of Dungeons & Dragons have reconsidered some of these components of essentialism. Level limitations for different racial groups were removed along with gaming stat limitations on nonhuman species, providing different systems to explain their advantages and disadvantages. Wizards of the Coast has reworked the game’s system of morality, called alignment, in recent editions, and eliminated the concept of evil races. The fifth edition and 2024 modification reintroduced species like orcs and dark elves in a manner that pushes back on their historical characterizations as evil cultures and inherently “bad” species. Social media voices, such as the Slovenly Trulls podcast, are discussing other game components that might need to be reconsidered, like misogyny and discrimination.

However, as someone who studies social structure, I can say that, in the gaming world, all this is a first step in a marathon. Significant numbers of role-playing game systems persist with race to distinguish between “humans” and “others.” Some gamers still loudly protest any change and continue to use race as it was in the past.

Nostalgia and persistence are powerful; they both have a hand in the continued success of Dungeons & Dragons. But they also hamper the possibility of change, even for the right reasons. Sometimes even fantasy games should look to a brighter future, rather than a glittering past.

This is an opinion and analysis article, and the views expressed by the author or authors are not necessarily those of Scientific American.
so the official narrative is that "evolution" is real but not bioessentialism?
:what:
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,761
Location
Flowery Land
https://rpgbot.net/2024-dnd-5e-tran...nt-in-the-new-players-handbook/#spell-changes

Full list of 5.24 changes. Notably no chages to Forcecage, no changes to Spirit Guardians, rogues now can't pick Arcane Lock. This edition was made by casterfags.

Also
“Transport” is used to represent forced movement. For example, the Psi Warrior Fighter’s Telekinetic Thrust says “transport it up to 10 feet horizontally”.
"Relocate" is a much better option for a keyword since "transport" is much more likely to come up in RPGs (the PCs hire Captain Ocean to transport them across the water, the PCs are payed to transport a package, etc.) and it sounds far more natural for a push to "relocate" someone than for it to "transport" them. I didn't have to go through a thesaurus for that one, I just realized it was a better option immediately upon seeing the example.
Saving Throws: “If you don’t want to resist the effect, you can choose to fail the save without rolling.”
This wasn't in 5E before? I know it was in 3E and, in-fact, it operated on the assumption that characters could resist buff spells but were doing this by default for beneficial spells (this matter because certain effects forced saves on such, and some normally good effects can be harmful in niche circumstances)
Rules for starting above 1st level, including an updated table of starting equipment which lists magic items for each tier of play.
Oh hey! D&Done actually tells you about 5E's WBL instead of hoping you learn it from modules that all adhere to it!
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,585
wait if race is haram now will they patch Baldur's Gate to not have different stats anymore? everyone's character sheet will just say ONE RACE THE HUMAN RACE #BLM?
 

Larianshill

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
1,863
This was known to have been coming a long time before BG3 released. In fact, it was already the new standard since Tasha's. If Larian wanted to remove racial bonuses, they would have.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,585
This was known to have been coming a long time before BG3 released. In fact, it was already the new standard since Tasha's. If Larian wanted to remove racial bonuses, they would have.
but what disturbs me is that there is nothing stopping morons from "updating" BG1-3 on Steam to not have racial bonuses
 

dutchwench

Novice
Joined
May 21, 2024
Messages
60
There's nothing stopping them from doing that in the same way as there's nothing stopping your office chair from exploding and ripping multiple additional holes in your ass. But you wouldn't want to constantly live in fear of that happening, right?
If this hypothetical update does happen, there will be plenty of backups for people to fall back on, or a restoration mod - the internet is just that kind of place and that's why it's amazing. Bad news for the latecomers though lmao. On the other hand, if you're the 2040s alternative of a zoomer trying to play Baldur's Gate and you're doing it without research, you deserve it.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,761
Location
Flowery Land
Meanwhile, in Savage Worlds its basically impossible to make a player race without giving them extremely limiting negative abilities to afford anything interesting. It uses it to include gonzo options like "non-anthropomorphic giant crabs" (can't use human gear, have pincers instead of hands, but you've got great natural armor, in a setting that hates non-natural armor, and a keen mind)
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,379
It's really a pain to watch that video with those insufferable cunts, but at least it's worth checking out their VTT. It's visually appealing, but clearly designed for heavy monetization—buying minis, dungeon sets, sound effects, etc. It will, of course, be very constraining and only suitable for pure dungeon crawls. I'll skip this and stick with one of the cheaper alternatives like Shadowdark and my usual VTT, where everything is cheap or free and the communities are helpful.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,761
Location
Flowery Land
https://archive.ph/wip/PFAFE
Hasbro is committing actual crimes (which are sadly never prosecuted) with false DMCA strikes to take down negative reviews. Kind of shit you'd expect from a LoLcow, not a company of that size. I'd love to see Hasbro be the first company to actually get their council's legal license revoked for this shit, but it won't happen.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,707
https://archive.ph/wip/PFAFE
Hasbro is committing actual crimes (which are sadly never prosecuted) with false DMCA strikes to take down negative reviews. Kind of shit you'd expect from a LoLcow, not a company of that size. I'd love to see Hasbro be the first company to actually get their council's legal license revoked for this shit, but it won't happen.
All it would take is someone funding one of these channels to cover their legal fees. I assume it would be under $100k.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,707
DnD Beyond VTT reveal


Are there any hobbies left that haven't been colonized? Nice that the kids from drama and band class found a home, but would have preferred if they made their own.
 

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