Death Stranding Director's Cut - Kojima's post-apocalyptic deliveryman simulator

[J_C]

Geez, I wonder what would the opinon of a long time Sony and Kojima hater could be on this game. Seriously, I like some of his content, but his bias against them is so obvious, if you look at some of his videos. At one point he even argued that the original Xbox was actually close to being more successful than the PS2.

So since everyone talks about this thing as being a super artsy game that proves games can be art, do you:
- get to make story choices that influence the outcome?
- get to define your character's attitude by making dialogue choices?

Umm, you do realize that this game is not an RPG, right?

 

[JarlFrank]

Umm, you do realize that this game is not an RPG, right?

If a game wants to be art as a game, it needs to be interactive.
The story can be written as excellently as the fucking classics of high literature, but it still wouldn't be art as a game if it's presented in linear cutscenes.

Back when I studied at uni, some dude wanted to tell me that games can be art and chose MGS as his example. All the examples from the game he put forward were cutscenes.
Cutscenes have nothing to do with the gaming medium. Indeed, cutscenes actively sabotage the very essence of games as a medium.

With this game, again, everyone claims IT'S SO ARTSY, so I want to know if that artistry is actually related to its virtues as a game, or if it's just a glorified movie.
If the gameplay itself is what makes it into a work of art, I will also accept it. But then the gameplay has to stand as something artful on its own, even if you removed the entirety of the story.

If people call a game an artistic masterpiece and use it as an example to why games can be art, then its artistic value must come from its interactivity, because that's the medium's unique feature that contrasts it with every other medium. If you removed every single cutscene from the game, and then people stop calling it a masterpiece of art, the game failed at being game as art because its artistic elements relied on a wholly anti-game feature such as cutscenes.

 

[Sentinel]

The story can be written as excellently as the fucking classics of high literature, but it still wouldn't be art as a game if it's presented in linear cutscenes.

This couldn't be any more false. If it's the gameplay that makes you care for the stuff that is shown in cutscenes, and the game then uses some of the mechanics for a linear, 100% scripted set piece climax, then it could perfectly fit into art as a game. An immediate example that comes to mind is in The Last Guardian, where you spend some ~10 hours nursing this animal back to life and seeing him trust you more, and then at the end the games asks you to use the same button that you've used so far to call him closer to you, but this time it tells him to run away to save itself. In a vacuum, this is a completely ridiculous scene open for mockery, but taken as part of a whole it has an entirely different context.

Death Stranding's asynchronous multiplayer elements are interactive and players helping each other out makes their lives easier. I'm not sure if it's art, but it's interactive.

 

[fantadomat]

Games and films are not art and can never be. They are made by teams and could be easily replicated and duplicated. Films are taped on camera and could be reshoot as many times as needed,even the most talentless whore could do the take after 100 retries,this is not art,it is a commercial product made for mass consumption!

 

[cvv]

TheSentinel you MOFO, are you defending the game? You, a gameplay-oriented gamer of all people?

 

[Egosphere]

Games and films are not art and can never be. They are made by teams and could be easily replicated and duplicated. Films are taped on camera and could be reshoot as many times as needed,even the most talentless whore could do the take after 100 retries,this is not art,it is a commercial product made for mass consumption!

books can be rewritten. paintings can be painted over to fix up imperfections. creating a great film is probably even harder, since you're always short on time and money.

My argument against 'games are art' is that good art is really fucking rare and must pass the test of time. So this'd disqualify 99% of games from the category.

 

[fantadomat]

Games and films are not art and can never be. They are made by teams and could be easily replicated and duplicated. Films are taped on camera and could be reshoot as many times as needed,even the most talentless whore could do the take after 100 retries,this is not art,it is a commercial product made for mass consumption!

books can be rewritten. paintings can be painted over to fix up imperfections. creating a great film is probably even harder, since you're always short on time and money.

My argument against 'games are art' is that good art is really fucking rare and must pass the test of time. So this'd disqualify 99% of games from the category.

No,they can't be! You could reuse the canvas or the pages of a book,but you can't rewrite or repaint them. They represent the feelings,knowledge and passions of a single individual,you can't remake it! Both games and films are entertainment product made for the masses,it has nothing to do with art!

 

[Sentinel]

TheSentinel you MOFO, are you defending the game? You, a gameplay-oriented gamer of all people?

No, I'm just saying that the perception that the game is "basically just cutscenes" is wrong. I haven't finished the game yet, I hate Kojima for MGS5. I have no interest in defending it. It is a pretty fun game so far surprisingly, though. From what I've played, the game doesn't seem like it has any issue with Kojima humor, like how Fragile introduces herself every single time by asking Sam if he "wants a bite" of the tiny maggot things. I've seen more egregious stuff in past games (like Ocelot meowing like a faggot and the pistol spin dance for 1 minute straight in MGS3, or naked Raiden in MGS2) so far.

 

[cvv]

I've seen more egregious stuff in past games (like Ocelot meowing like a faggot and the pistol spin dance for 1 minute straight in MGS3, or naked Raiden in MGS2) so far.

Kojima must be even more retarded than I thought. I only played MGS5 and loved it (well, loved the gameplay, the writing permanently destroyed millions of my brain cells) but haven't seen anything as demented as that.

(tho I kept thinking Ocelot looks like a chick after a heavy T therapy...he just kept creeping me out)

 

[Tehdagah]

Games and films are not art and can never be. They are made by teams and could be easily replicated and duplicated. Films are taped on camera and could be reshoot as many times as needed,even the most talentless whore could do the take after 100 retries,this is not art,it is a commercial product made for mass consumption!

books can be rewritten. paintings can be painted over to fix up imperfections. creating a great film is probably even harder, since you're always short on time and money.

My argument against 'games are art' is that good art is really fucking rare and must pass the test of time. So this'd disqualify 99% of games from the category.

No,they can't be! You could reuse the canvas or the pages of a book,but you can't rewrite or repaint them. They represent the feelings,knowledge and passions of a single individual,you can't remake it! Both games and films are entertainment product made for the masses,it has nothing to do with art!

What if it's a movie or game made by one person?

 

[J_C]

Umm, you do realize that this game is not an RPG, right?

If a game wants to be art as a game, it needs to be interactive.
The story can be written as excellently as the fucking classics of high literature, but it still wouldn't be art as a game if it's presented in linear cutscenes.

Back when I studied at uni, some dude wanted to tell me that games can be art and chose MGS as his example. All the examples from the game he put forward were cutscenes.
Cutscenes have nothing to do with the gaming medium. Indeed, cutscenes actively sabotage the very essence of games as a medium.

With this game, again, everyone claims IT'S SO ARTSY, so I want to know if that artistry is actually related to its virtues as a game, or if it's just a glorified movie.
If the gameplay itself is what makes it into a work of art, I will also accept it. But then the gameplay has to stand as something artful on its own, even if you removed the entirety of the story.

If people call a game an artistic masterpiece and use it as an example to why games can be art, then its artistic value must come from its interactivity, because that's the medium's unique feature that contrasts it with every other medium. If you removed every single cutscene from the game, and then people stop calling it a masterpiece of art, the game failed at being game as art because its artistic elements relied on a wholly anti-game feature such as cutscenes.

I agree on the importace of gameplay, I just don't get why your criteria of games as art is that it has to have RPG mechanics (dialogues and c&c).

 

[Egosphere]

Games and films are not art and can never be. They are made by teams and could be easily replicated and duplicated. Films are taped on camera and could be reshoot as many times as needed,even the most talentless whore could do the take after 100 retries,this is not art,it is a commercial product made for mass consumption!

books can be rewritten. paintings can be painted over to fix up imperfections. creating a great film is probably even harder, since you're always short on time and money.

My argument against 'games are art' is that good art is really fucking rare and must pass the test of time. So this'd disqualify 99% of games from the category.

No,they can't be! You could reuse the canvas or the pages of a book,but you can't rewrite or repaint them. They represent the feelings,knowledge and passions of a single individual,you can't remake it! Both games and films are entertainment product made for the masses,it has nothing to do with art!

There are plenty of movies that are the product of one person's vision. Kubrick and Lynch, for example, made movies that I wouldn't classify as entertainment for the masses. You're conflating the majority of modern movies with ALL movies.

 

[Egosphere]

I've seen more egregious stuff in past games (like Ocelot meowing like a faggot and the pistol spin dance for 1 minute straight in MGS3, or naked Raiden in MGS2) so far.

Kojima must be even more retarded than I thought. I only played MGS5 and loved it (well, loved the gameplay, the writing permanently destroyed millions of my brain cells) but haven't seen anything as demented as that.

(tho I kept thinking Ocelot looks like a chick after a heavy T therapy...he just kept creeping me out)

Found that very scene. Enjoy!

 

[Irata]

AwesomeButton said: ↑
Let me guess - the part of the movie which is not a movie consists of repetitive activities to provide time padding until the next movie?

isn't this literally every videogame ever?

Ms. Pac Man had cutscenes, but Pac Man didn't.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Geez, I wonder what would the opinon of a long time Sony and Kojima hater could be on this game. Seriously, I like some of his content, but his bias against them is so obvious, if you look at some of his videos. At one point he even argued that the original Xbox was actually close to being more successful than the PS2.

So since everyone talks about this thing as being a super artsy game that proves games can be art, do you:
- get to make story choices that influence the outcome?
- get to define your character's attitude by making dialogue choices?

Umm, you do realize that this game is not an RPG, right?

"But can you choose what to say and alter the ending? Pffftttt. Not artsy enough."

 

[JarlFrank]

I agree on the importace of gameplay, I just don't get why your criteria of games as art is that it has to have RPG mechanics (dialogues and c&c).

Nah, I don't have that as necessary criteria, I think Thief is a piece of art and it has no dialogue, just awesome exploration and gameplay mechanics.

But I'm assuming that this game has lots and lots of cutscenes, and that those are praised as the great part, mostly because of an MGS fanboy trying to tell me how awesome MGS is but all the awesome scenes he told me about were cutscenes, and when your game's claim to artistry lies in its cutscenes, it has failed as a game, especially if they're as lengthy as the cutscenes in MGS.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I agree on the importace of gameplay, I just don't get why your criteria of games as art is that it has to have RPG mechanics (dialogues and c&c).

Nah, I don't have that as necessary criteria, I think Thief is a piece of art and it has no dialogue, just awesome exploration and gameplay mechanics.

But I'm assuming that this game has lots and lots of cutscenes, and that those are praised as the great part, mostly because of an MGS fanboy trying to tell me how awesome MGS is but all the awesome scenes he told me about were cutscenes, and when your game's claim to artistry lies in its cutscenes, it has failed as a game, especially if they're as lengthy as the cutscenes in MGS.

You didn't ask a real MGS fanboy what he liked about it. It's the Codec's. Fucking posers. Go choke on a dragon dick and maturbate to shemale elf porn.

Death Stranding is more gameplay than cutscenes, so you fags are talking about MGS 4.

 

[Sentinel]

I've seen more egregious stuff in past games (like Ocelot meowing like a faggot and the pistol spin dance for 1 minute straight in MGS3, or naked Raiden in MGS2) so far.

Kojima must be even more retarded than I thought. I only played MGS5 and loved it (well, loved the gameplay, the writing permanently destroyed millions of my brain cells) but haven't seen anything as demented as that.

(tho I kept thinking Ocelot looks like a chick after a heavy T therapy...he just kept creeping me out)

Yeah I can understand you liking MGS5 if you weren't a fan of the franchise. And I hope that someday I'll be able to detach myself from it enough that I can like it for its own merits too.

 

[Bigg Boss]

MGS V is fine if you can detach yourself from how unfinished and shitty the story is.

 

[Jenkem]

Ms. Pac Man had cutscenes, but Pac Man didn't.

lol have you never gotten past stage 2 in pac-man or something?

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS LOLOLLOL GAMES AS ART

DONT BE RETARDS LIKE GAME JOURNOS

SUPER MARIO BROS IS ART AND ZELDA IS ART AND STREET FIGHTER 2 IS ART

THE ART OF A GAME IS IN MECHANICS AND MAYBE STORY IF IT CAN RELATE MECHANICS

FUCKING CUTSCENES THAT IGNORE MECHANICS MAKE THE GAME A LYING PEACE OF SHIT LOLOLLOL FFVII AERIS JUST CAST PHEONIX DOWN

BROS THE INTERACTIVITY OF

 

[BLOBERT]

FUCK TO DRINK THE CODEX MUST HAVE MANY BRAETHALYZERS

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

If there is anything I have learned in my travels across the internet, it is that many things may change the nature of a videogame. Whether regret, or love, or revenge or fear - whatever you believe can change the nature of a videogame, can. I’ve seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil hag's heart half-circle. This entire website has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a woman, whose heart clung to the hope that another loved her when he did not. Once, it made a man seek immortality and achieve it. And it has made a posturing user think videogames are something more than entertaiment.

 

[Irata]

lol have you never gotten past stage 2 in pac-man or something?

Haha. No, I just haven't played it in nearly 40 years. Regardless, I was just trying to be witty.

 

[Machocruz]

People have some illusions about how art is created and for what purpose. Anything in any media, of great complexity and scale, often requires group effort. Was Peter Paul Rubens any less an artist because he had a workshop full of assistants who worked on various areas of his paintings before he came in and laid in a few final touches, sending it out into the world as his own and reaping all the accolades and material rewards (not uncommon in his time and the surrounding centuries)? I doubt any single painter of any era could do something like his The Elevation of The Cross completely on their own. And you don't hide that kind of work away in the study, it's made for the public square.

There are writers that hire assistants to do research for them.

Show me a one man film that can rival Lawrence of Arabia in scope, scale, and technical proficiency, 57 years later.

Even comic books. You see those dozens of finely detailed buildings being blown into even finer bits in Akira? Took me some years to find out that assistants (possibly architecture students, but I forget) handled a lot of that, which seems obvious in retrospect. You don't see that level of exacting work in mainstream American comics, with how they normally have one penciler and one inker doing everything.

It's all very time and labor consuming to create anything 'next level'. Toiling away on your own, lone genius, sounds romantic. And maybe with enough time one can create a work of astounding scale and complexity. But I suspect the kind of creators given to that kind of ambition are also the kind to want to enjoy the rewards before they find themselves back in diapers.

Edit: not an endorsement of Death Stranding or any other game, btw. Just a general thing.