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Diablo IV

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
Side quests mostly consist of fetch quests as far as I have seen (but I could be wrong). There are many dungeons but there are very few variations of them. World bosses provide no challenge, I assume like everything else in the game to cater to the widest casual group. Things like hell tide is a neat idea, but it's all drowned by some exceptionally bad game design - chiefly the itemisation and the level scaling.

They very widely. But they aren't full rpg quests. Still it is better than just random do map X to progress from poe.

I guess this subject goes to whatever you want arpg to be. If you want it to be slot machine without story, just jumble of systems then it is not great. If you want arpg with some theme, story, reasons to beat demons etc. this gives you context.
 

ADL

Prophet
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
4,183
Location
Nantucket
The hatred for level scaling in what is essentially a MMO-lite will always be astounding to me. Why the hell would you want to outlevel content and entire zones? Leveled zones in MMOs have always been fucking stupid and you shouldn't have to choose between playing a dozen alts and playing the content you managed to miss without facerolling everything. Anyways I hit endgame and helltides really make use of the open world. This is way better than mapping in Path of Exile. Dungeons need a lot of work but it's nice having 500 different things to do every login and being able to target farm loot.

The future is now and you ain't a part of it if you're still whining about level scaling. That ship sailed about a decade ago and thank fucking god for that. Seethe grandpas.

Rate retarded all you want I'm not the one throwing away content over muh dmg numbers and vertical progression.
 
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ADL

Prophet
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Messages
4,183
Location
Nantucket
You know what's retarded? Being level 100 and being stuck in a single zone or two doing the same dozen activities because your numbers are too big to enjoy anything else. Being level 60 and one-shotting everything in Goldshire wasn't fun twenty years ago and it's not fun now.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,791
Why let characters level up when the world just adjust to the character level anyway? Just to get a dopamine kick when you hear the leveling sound?
With level scaling the level is just a pointless number to trick the player. To give him the illusion of progression.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,591
You know what's retarded? Being level 100 and being stuck in a single zone or two doing the same dozen activities because your numbers are too big to enjoy anything else. Being level 60 and one-shotting everything in Goldshire wasn't fun twenty years ago and it's not fun now.
Autists that are able to play same mind numbing game to reach lvl 100 do not care they only get to do it in two zones. Lol in POE, people would make two maps max level on purpose and only run those two maps until their mother forces them out of their basement.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,791
Another point about level scaling: For it to work as intended every character and class at a certain level has to be equally powerful. If some classes or builds are more powerful than others the game has huge balancing problem.
For example, do you balance the scaling for the optimal build? If yes then it forces everyone to play as this build. If not then playing the optimal build becomes boring. The same applies to different classes.

Without level scaling players with weaker builds/classes can just level up more to complete the content. Level scaling makes this impossible.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
The hatred for level scaling in what is essentially a MMO-lite will always be astounding to me. Why the hell would you want to outlevel content and entire zones? Leveled zones in MMOs have always been fucking stupid and you shouldn't have to choose between playing a dozen alts and playing the content you managed to miss without facerolling everything. Anyways I hit endgame and helltides really make use of the open world. This is way better than mapping in Path of Exile. Dungeons need a lot of work but it's nice having 500 different things to do every login and being able to target farm loot.

The future is now and you ain't a part of it if you're still whining about level scaling. That ship sailed about a decade ago and thank fucking god for that. Seethe grandpas.

Level scaling is just cheap excuse of proper balancing. Always was and always will be. Instead of balancing each zone thinking about how players may play it what kind of numbers are needed etc. for fun game you have just level scaling.

D4 scalling is not the worst one but definitely isn't a plus. It's detriment to pretty good game overall.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,591

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
The hatred for level scaling in what is essentially a MMO-lite will always be astounding to me. Why the hell would you want to outlevel content and entire zones? Leveled zones in MMOs have always been fucking stupid and you shouldn't have to choose between playing a dozen alts and playing the content you managed to miss without facerolling everything. Anyways I hit endgame and helltides really make use of the open world. This is way better than mapping in Path of Exile. Dungeons need a lot of work but it's nice having 500 different things to do every login and being able to target farm loot.

The future is now and you ain't a part of it if you're still whining about level scaling. That ship sailed about a decade ago and thank fucking god for that. Seethe grandpas.
Even if you accept level scaling, which is fucking retarded and completely warps power progression, the itemisation is straight up D3. Completely uninspiring stat stick. I can’t see a shred of innovation or creativity. D2 which was made more than two decades ago with no competing ARPGs to compare with had better ideas.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
It seems that I start to warm up to base item stats and affixes.

My problem with base stats and affixes on items was that they felt insignificant and by that some of them felt completely useless. Meaning wearing one piece vs other was not really a difference. After reaching lvl 50+ I think that is no longer true. At start of the game rolls are uber small and even at start of the game with character having small total life etc. it doesn't matter. But at 50+ Stats starts to matter a lot as difference between bad and best roll increase up and up and up.

Another thing is that previously I didn't have access to blacksmith upgrade. Meaning you can take item and upgrade it 3 times at start and when you get to 50+ 5 times. Upgrades aren't that big but they work on EVERY stat on item.

So previously +3 to fury (on my 100fury limit barbarian) was joke i wouldn't even consider. But now I get rolls on items in vein of 7-10. With 2-3 items i can get roughly 30% more. That seems interesting but with upgrades suddenly those 7-10s change into 12-15 so at best nearly 50% more. Add to that 10 from tree and fury reduction again around 20-30% and suddenly you get double resource.

There are other stats like that. Armor always at start was like 1%. I mean who the fuck would invest into 5% better armor stat. Armor is very important in game as it handles both physical as well as elemental damage reduction (50% of whole res) but 1% is nothing. Even if you stack multiple pieces you get at best 7%. Aka nothing.
Now enter lvl 50+ gear and suddenly you can have 30% more armor almost equivalent of running Determination aura in POE and probably more because it has effect on elemental damage as well.

------------

passive tree (lvl50+)

Paragon tree seems to be POE tree. It seems pretty barebones if you look at singular boards as most of stats are just +5 to strenght or other stat but I didn't know how glyphs worked when you insert them into that board. Turns out that glyphs power is directly aped from POE jewels and they have activation requirement. So for effect to start working you need in range of say 3 or 4 +25 to dex. The difference from POE jewels is that each glyph has base stat and requirement. Base stats always work regardless of requirement. So like each point of dex in range of glyph gives you +0.1% to crit strike but requirement gives you some flat bonus and some of those can be major. Kind of how people in POE want to use those memories jawells to change rest of nodes into different stat or get another like %fortify effectiveness.
My weapon master glyph has "If you use weapon master skill it randomly removes 2sec from cooldown on other weapon master skill." aka something that actually can change how you play.

The other part about it that is pretty hard to spot is that all those base stats overrepresent them to eye it so it feels like it is filled to brim with shit. But the thing is that you get 4 paragon points per level not 1. So with 50 levels you get 200 points + other points you get from quests etc. If you want to focus only on major powers you can go from one board to another in 2-3 levels picking up rare nodes that are equivalent of POEs bigger nodes (but not the biggest ones). So it is kind of more spread out unlike POE tree and stuff hidden behind glyphs which then transforms those base stats into useful stuff.

I'm yet to make statement about it as I don't have many paragon points to play with and theory craft so final verdict may change. So far it is much better than i expected.

Even if you accept level scaling, which is fucking retarded and completely warps power progression, the itemization is straight up D3. Completely uninspiring stat stick. I can’t see a shred of innovation or creativity. D2 which was made more than two decades ago with no competing ARPGs to compare with had better ideas.

D4 itemization isn't D3 itemization, like at all. Only thing resembling it are aspects from legendries but even those are changed in how they work and function.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
Also tip:

I thought music was either boring or shite as I couldn't quite remember single thing about it from campaign other than fmv ones that were typical hollywood choir orchestra schlock. Turns out that default mastering of game is retarded and gameplay sounds and pretty much everything else are completely overshooting music. You need to set "effects" in sounds tab to like 20 of 100 to hear properly music. After I changed that i noticed that it does actually have fantastic music which is very reminiscent of D2 music style, same type of tribal undertones i loved about D2 music. Especially western parts of sanctuary are great.

Fractured peaks music aka starting area imho has most forgettable music.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,236
Location
Azores Islands
The hatred for level scaling in what is essentially a MMO-lite will always be astounding to me. Why the hell would you want to outlevel content and entire zones? Leveled zones in MMOs have always been fucking stupid and you shouldn't have to choose between playing a dozen alts and playing the content you managed to miss without facerolling everything. Anyways I hit endgame and helltides really make use of the open world. This is way better than mapping in Path of Exile. Dungeons need a lot of work but it's nice having 500 different things to do every login and being able to target farm loot.

The future is now and you ain't a part of it if you're still whining about level scaling. That ship sailed about a decade ago and thank fucking god for that. Seethe grandpas.
Even if you accept level scaling, which is fucking retarded and completely warps power progression, the itemisation is straight up D3. Completely uninspiring stat stick. I can’t see a shred of innovation or creativity. D2 which was made more than two decades ago with no competing ARPGs to compare with had better ideas.
I'm playing through D2 resurrected and it's boring as fuck, the itemization, especially, is nothing special, at least in the campaign.

It plays extremely slow, the quests are forgettable and are only 6(?) per chapter, the inventory is extremely limited, you spend most of your time portal to camp, sell shit, portal back.

Graphics and music are the high point, but otherwise it's antiquated game design that was abandoned long ago.
 

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
The hatred for level scaling in what is essentially a MMO-lite will always be astounding to me. Why the hell would you want to outlevel content and entire zones? Leveled zones in MMOs have always been fucking stupid and you shouldn't have to choose between playing a dozen alts and playing the content you managed to miss without facerolling everything. Anyways I hit endgame and helltides really make use of the open world. This is way better than mapping in Path of Exile. Dungeons need a lot of work but it's nice having 500 different things to do every login and being able to target farm loot.

The future is now and you ain't a part of it if you're still whining about level scaling. That ship sailed about a decade ago and thank fucking god for that. Seethe grandpas.
Even if you accept level scaling, which is fucking retarded and completely warps power progression, the itemisation is straight up D3. Completely uninspiring stat stick. I can’t see a shred of innovation or creativity. D2 which was made more than two decades ago with no competing ARPGs to compare with had better ideas.
I'm playing through D2 resurrected and it's boring as fuck, the itemization, especially, is nothing special, at least in the campaign.

It plays extremely slow, the quests are forgettable and are only 6(?) per chapter, the inventory is extremely limited, you spend most of your time portal to camp, sell shit, portal back.

Graphics and music are the high point, but otherwise it's antiquated game design that was abandoned long ago.
It has set items, class items, build-enabling uniques like werewolf barb and runewords. It also includes stat depth such as faster hit recovery, faster cast rate, accuracy, block rate, open wounds, powerful blows etc. that aren’t just straight up more damage.

It’s definitely not perfect but the point is it was made a long time ago and the standard should be set much higher than what D4 brings to the table, especially so now that you have competing ARPGs like Grim Dawn, PoE and Last Epoch. The itemisation in D4 really is abysmal.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,917
Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm playing through D2 resurrected and it's boring as fuck, the itemization, especially, is nothing special, at least in the campaign.

It plays extremely slow, the quests are forgettable and are only 6(?) per chapter, the inventory is extremely limited, you spend most of your time portal to camp, sell shit, portal back.

Graphics and music are the high point, but otherwise it's antiquated game design that was abandoned long ago.
Those are the least of its problems. The biggest ones are runewords, lack of endgame outside of Baal runs and maybe synergies but YMMV on that. I have no idea how people play it for so long.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
D4 brings to the table, especially so now that you have competing ARPGs like Grim Dawn, PoE and Last Epoch. The itemisation in D4 really is abysmal.

Do you play D4 ? I mean you can't say that without knowing inside out D4 itemization. When I started playing D4 itemization of affixes was weak but now at lvl 50+ they start to matter, idk how it will be in high end game.

Good example of that are glyphs. I didn't do nightmare dungeons because i thought those were only just harder dungeons but turns out that glyphs you input into paragon tree have levels and they way to level them is to do those nightmare dungeons. On some glyphs there are like lvl 15 reqs for increased glyph reach on board.

Moreover in occultist there are still two grayed out tabs that do something I am yet to unlock.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
Technical aspects of D4, bugs etc.:

Early access comes to an end today. 100% servers will fry up in few hours where masses will start to play.
As far as my experience in it It didn't have any server issues and queues didn't exist at all. Never got DC either. Just some small bugs like not being able to use any skill at some point for short while until i relogged but this one seems to be common for people.

Didn't see much phantom wall issues i had in beta where my character stopped before some invisible wall dividing region parts.

No just the beta server slam, I didn’t buy it after.

I played beta before that (not server slam) but it was mostly the same build. Back then I also thought itemization aka affixes was weak part of game. But like i mentioned above around lvl 50 those affixes start to matter as higher level gear starts to have wider differences between bad and good roll.

Game for $30 should be a steal. I still don't know if it is worth proper $60. ARPG bar is very high. So far it is on path to be worth it.
For now only rings and amulets have weak affixes for me. But body armor and weapons etc. they started to matter a lot to point where I actively look for new bases among rares.
 
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ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,591
Personally best part of D4 was build enabling legendaries that you can also find at low levels. Neither D2 or PoE has that and I always wanted that.
 

Kjaska

Arbeiter
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
1,594
Location
Germoney
Insert Title Here
1685993566902.png
 

Seethe

Cipher
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
999
I'm playing through D2 resurrected and it's boring as fuck, the itemization, especially, is nothing special, at least in the campaign.

It plays extremely slow, the quests are forgettable and are only 6(?) per chapter, the inventory is extremely limited, you spend most of your time portal to camp, sell shit, portal back.

Graphics and music are the high point, but otherwise it's antiquated game design that was abandoned long ago.
Those are the least of its problems. The biggest ones are runewords, lack of endgame outside of Baal runs and maybe synergies but YMMV on that. I have no idea how people play it for so long.
It's not bloated dogshit like PoE where you're forced into trading if you want viable builds, if that's what you're suggesting. I swear, only PoE enthusiasts say this shit and talk about "muh endgame" and how "it's too slow" because their brain damage has adapted to one shotting the entire screen in the fraction of a second, and so the only challenge left in that game is to get one shot by something off screen. It's either that or your build isn't viable and you die all the time, because yes PoE has a lot of shit that won't work despite its build "diversity". How are "runewords" a problem? You didn't explain it.

People play it for so long because the itemization is excellent and makes the runs fresh. The normal enemies are different, and FEEL different. They're not just a horde that fill up the screen to the brim. Getting lucky and picking up a white wand in the first act can end up so good, it can carry you til Hell difficulty. Congratulations, you've beaten all difficulties! The point is now to create a new character and make a new build. Who would've thought?
 
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Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,392
Runewords are a problem in D2 because they pidgeon hole you into them. Runewords are just straight up better than rest of items from the moment they show up up until very late end game. I remember D2 before it had runewords and it was much better game.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,917
Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm playing through D2 resurrected and it's boring as fuck, the itemization, especially, is nothing special, at least in the campaign.

It plays extremely slow, the quests are forgettable and are only 6(?) per chapter, the inventory is extremely limited, you spend most of your time portal to camp, sell shit, portal back.

Graphics and music are the high point, but otherwise it's antiquated game design that was abandoned long ago.
Those are the least of its problems. The biggest ones are runewords, lack of endgame outside of Baal runs and maybe synergies but YMMV on that. I have no idea how people play it for so long.
It's not bloated dogshit like PoE where you're forced into trading if you want viable builds, if that's what you're suggesting. I swear, only PoE enthusiasts say this shit and talk about "muh endgame" and how "it's too slow" because their brain damage has adapted to one shotting the entire screen in the fraction of a second, and so the only challenge left in that game is to get one shot by something off screen. It's either that or your build isn't viable and you die all the time, because yes PoE has a lot of shit that won't work despite its build "diversity". How are "runewords" a problem? You didn't explain it.

People play it for so long because the itemization is excellent and makes the runs fresh. The normal enemies are different, and FEEL different. They're not just a horde that fill up the screen to the brim. Getting lucky and picking up a white wand in the first act can end up so good, it can carry you til Hell difficulty. Congratulations, you've beaten all difficulties! The point is now to create a new character and make a new build. Who would've thought?
PoE is shit lol. I'm thinking of actually good games, like Grim Dawn.
 

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