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Diablo IV

Grampy_Bone

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I've always said that the Diablo 2 skill system is one of the worst things to happen to gaming.

Not because it's bad in that game, but because it has been so mindlessly copied into so many titles I am completely sick of it. Thus it was funny to me that D3 ultimately streamlined it out, realizing its inherent flaws were unfixable. Unfortunately they replaced it with nothing, leading to the game of "pick which color of magic ball to clear the screen with". I was surprised to learn the D3 skill rune system had been implemented and playtested extensively as loot drops, but was changed to auto-unlocks at the eleventh hour when they realized the runes cluttered up the inventory too much (uhhh, you guys never thought of a separate rune bag? Jesus).

In D2 you could put a point in every skill for a character and still have an okay time (trust me, that's what my first character looked like). I don't think you can do that here, at least not with the Rogue, you will get pulverized. So the obvious flaw of the skill system becomes apparent: players putting points into bad skills, or bad skills for your build, or they don't work how you expect, or they're just lame, and so you've wasted the skill point. "Good!" exclaims the Codex, while I disagree and it's clear the majority of players do as well, the common solution of respec is not good either. Respec is a tacit admission that the skill system is broken and does not work, but instead of fixing it they give you a built-in cheat to mitigate it. Its duct tape on a leaky pipe.

My solution, FYI, is to allow unlimited skill point grinding. PoE essentially did this by letting you level up skill gems. Or come up with some other system that doesn't require respec (and I think Diablo 4 REQUIRES respec--I have rebuilt my Rogue at least ten times and I'm only level 30). I'm not saying its unplayable, I just wish they had come up with something new.

I appreciate they are trying to get players to synergize their skills and not make the game about keeping everything on cooldown all of the time. However, skill trees and respec feel like a step backward. Forgivable if the later game systems prove to have enough depth to maintain interest; we will see.

Also, I'm not sure what people are upset about re: story choices or lack of immersion. Consider that Diablo 2 was put into development without any story at all, and all locations were built based on what the developers thought sounded cool and would be fun to kill stuff in. In the end a second team was tasked with piecing together the disparate pieces and making up some kind of story to go along with it, and the result is widely hailed as one of the greatest games of all time. Storyfags get rekt.
 
Joined
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There are 2 types of people in this thread:

- those playing Diablo IV and mostly having fun
- those who possess an IQ level necessary to breathe automatically

Fixed that for you. Having played it quite a bit and still playing it (I know I know, I'm the retard here for doing that), it is markedly worse than D3, and more than that, worse than every other Diablo title. It's actually impressive how bad it is mechanically. The only thing it has going for it is visual production values.

I played a ton of Diablo 1 and 2, and Diablo 3 was criticized far more at launch than Diablo IV, so no...

I don't think you understand what mechanically means. Diablo 1 was very VERY simple mechanically, if it came out today nobody would even touch it. Diablo 2 was much more complex, but it's not even close to Diablo IV as far as mechanics complexity goes.

I played a ton of barbarian in D2, and playing one now in D4. In D2, you basically had 1-2 viable builds as a melee oriented barb, Whirlwind (95% of players) or maybe Frenzy. You could do Concentration, but it was basically like doing an auto-attack build without interrupts, and Berserk sucked against any kind of fast hitting enemies.

In D4, there is a TON of viable barb melee builds with completely different skills at every level. There are like 4-5 LEVELS of skills, at each of which you can select one of like 3-5 abilities, and mix and match as you please. Add in all the customization you can do with Paragon boards, equipment aspects, passive skills, etc, and you are talking about significantly higher depth, but still understandable at a glance, unlike the autism that is PoE's skill tree.
 

KIss My Ass

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Cant see myself redoing it all , and cherry on the cake paying 10 euros for the priviledge of doing so.
This is why I'm not making new characters until the seasons start. First season I'll probably play barb or necro, 2nd or 3rd season rogue, etc. I reckon this will help keep things fresh. In the meantime I'm strictly rolling with my sorceress.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,250
This guy explains the game pretty well
So D4 is a shit game with good tutorial?

Also, I'm not sure what people are upset about re: story choices or lack of immersion. Consider that Diablo 2 was put into development without any story at all, and all locations were built based on what the developers thought sounded cool and would be fun to kill stuff in. In the end a second team was tasked with piecing together the disparate pieces and making up some kind of story to go along with it, and the result is widely hailed as one of the greatest games of all time. Storyfags get rekt.
What you try to accomplish, where your priorities are as a dev and how you promote the game matter. If you talk so much about immersion when some of the character lines are way out of place it's very jarring for the player. Same for the story, if it takes priority over gameplay it needs to deliver.
Talking about priorities: https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/a44132115/diablo-iv-video-game/
Yeah it's a very "obvious" piece done on demand. Some of the "stories" in there though... clearly gameplay was more like an afterthought in those offices.
 
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Zeriel

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Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,868
Your build will change after level 50 once you find uniques , for exemple i found some gloves as necro making the corpse explosion skill an homing missile and 40% damage more to boost,then you can convert it to darkness damage so i respeced completely and went full darkness saccing every minions, using bone tempest , and every darkness dots possible. Each darkness hit triggering crowd controls effects, so had to change my gear to enhance both dot damage and crowd control.

This guy explains the game pretty well

People need to stop judging their experiences at prior to 50.

Some people might struggle from 1-50, but it's usually because their build is very bad. If your build is rational, it will clear your time through 1-50.

The game doesn't actually get frustrating until WT3 and definitely in WT4. The amount of rationally-constructed builds that you can make starts to shrink more and more until you just arrive at close-combat builds that take advantage of the aspect of control scaling bonuses. Nothing else seems to do very well anymore, and ranged-oriented builds like chain lightning and frozen orb are quite bad. There's no way you would know this at level 30 or 40 or 50 or even 58.

As someone who is very, very far into the game, I honestly have to say that 1-50 is just a tiny portion of your character journey. It's so tiny, it kind of doesn't matter. You're not terribly concerned with gear. You don't have to figure out the paragon board. You don't have access to unique items and new aspects that drop outside of the codex of power, you are not leveling glyphs, you're not really looking for ways to scale your damage beyond using Vulnerable, etc. There's a lot of the game you're just not getting into yet.

People need to stop thinking their character journey at level 40 or 50 will translate to the end-game at level 70+. It doesn't.

1-50 = Tutorial
50-70 = Mid-Game
70-100 = Endgame, and some would split this up from 70-90 and 90-100.

And this is why people bitching in here who only played the beta or read some random crap posted by noobs have no idea wtf they are talking about. Their opinions are useless.

Literally just a collection of strawmen. Who is STRUGGLING with this game at any point? It's so easy you couldn't be blamed for falling asleep out of boredom. Calling the mechanics shit has nothing to do with difficulty.

This is a tried and true deceptive strategy of fanboys that was perfected by the Dark Souls fandom. Someone criticizing the genius of From Software? It can't be because they have legitimate design disagreements, it must be because they suck at the game! Nevermind if they've already beaten it or had zero problems ever with any challenge in the game, just call them CASULS and GIT GUD!
 

Saravan

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Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
There are 2 types of people in this thread:

- those playing Diablo IV and mostly having fun
- those who possess an IQ level necessary to breathe automatically

Fixed that for you. Having played it quite a bit and still playing it (I know I know, I'm the retard here for doing that), it is markedly worse than D3, and more than that, worse than every other Diablo title. It's actually impressive how bad it is mechanically. The only thing it has going for it is visual production values.

I played a ton of Diablo 1 and 2, and Diablo 3 was criticized far more at launch than Diablo IV, so no...

I don't think you understand what mechanically means. Diablo 1 was very VERY simple mechanically, if it came out today nobody would even touch it. Diablo 2 was much more complex, but it's not even close to Diablo IV as far as mechanics complexity goes.

I played a ton of barbarian in D2, and playing one now in D4. In D2, you basically had 1-2 viable builds as a melee oriented barb, Whirlwind (95% of players) or maybe Frenzy. You could do Concentration, but it was basically like doing an auto-attack build without interrupts, and Berserk sucked against any kind of fast hitting enemies.

In D4, there is a TON of viable barb melee builds with completely different skills at every level. There are like 4-5 LEVELS of skills, at each of which you can select one of like 3-5 abilities, and mix and match as you please. Add in all the customization you can do with Paragon boards, equipment aspects, passive skills, etc, and you are talking about significantly higher depth, but still understandable at a glance, unlike the autism that is PoE's skill tree.
Lol no. There are exactly three viable builds for Barb: bleed build, HOTA and WW. Double swing and upheaval is not viable. There aren’t even any passives for dual swords or axes. Literally even casuals are complaining about builds being limited.
 

NecroLord

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This is a tried and true deceptive strategy of fanboys that was perfected by the Dark Souls fandom. Someone criticizing the genius of From Software? It can't be because they have legitimate design disagreements, it must be because they suck at the game! Nevermind if they've already beaten it or had zero problems ever with any challenge in the game, just call them CASULS and GIT GUD!
That's one of my pet peeves with those fucking retards.
While Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne are really great games, any sort of criticism aimed at any one of these games gets suppressed by the obnoxious "GIT GUD, CASUAL!" crowd of prebuscent wankers.
 

KIss My Ass

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Literally just a collection of strawmen. Who is STRUGGLING with this game at any point? It's so easy you couldn't be blamed for falling asleep out of boredom. Calling the mechanics shit has nothing to do with difficulty.

This is a tried and true deceptive strategy of fanboys that was perfected by the Dark Souls fandom. Someone criticizing the genius of From Software? It can't be because they have legitimate design disagreements, it must be because they suck at the game! Nevermind if they've already beaten it or had zero problems ever with any challenge in the game, just call them CASULS and GIT GUD!
Don't even bring Dark Souls into this douchetard. You can search my entire post history, I've never once accused somebody's distaste for those games being due to them being terrible at the game. I hate Souls fans who do that. They give the fanbase a bad rap. I spend far more time attacking other Souls fans than I do people who hate Souls games in general.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,250
Lol no. There are exactly three viable builds for Barb: bleed build, HOTA and WW. Double swing and upheaval is not viable. There aren’t even any passives for dual swords or axes. Literally even casuals are complaining about builds being limited.
Define viable first.
There aren’t even any passives for dual swords or axes.
What the actual fuck are you talking about?
 

Saravan

Savant
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Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
Lol no. There are exactly three viable builds for Barb: bleed build, HOTA and WW. Double swing and upheaval is not viable. There aren’t even any passives for dual swords or axes. Literally even casuals are complaining about builds being limited.
Define viable first.
There aren’t even any passives for dual swords or axes.
What the actual fuck are you talking about?
Viable is doing WT4 NMD at least into tier +30 (approx. lvl 70-80) you are going to struggle with those builds.

Barb has no skill passives relating to 1H Swords or Axes, only Maces. I’m excluding the one odd rare glyph or two on the paragon board.
 

Yosharian

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I think these are all valid points but can we remember that POE has been around for TEN YEARS while D4 just launched?

I think it is a little unfair to point out that POE has all this build variety compared to D4 tbh
 

Saravan

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The irony of you going hurr-durr you only played beta, then you have this campaign Andy going "sO mAnY bArB bUiLdS". You wanna run higher tier NMD (end game) then your build is forced into all three shouts + basic attack generator + core skill (HOTA, bleed or WW). You might get away with replacing one shout (for rend in bleed) but that's about it. There is not a single barb unique either that changes in any meaningful way you play your build. A 20 year old game has more barb builds.
 
Last edited:

abija

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May 21, 2011
Messages
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Viable is doing WT4 NMD at least into tier +30 (approx. lvl 70-80) you are going to struggle with those builds.
Bleed and ww also struggle at 70+. I've seen some guy with double swing close to 80 and seemed similar. And ds looked better than ww on lilith from what I've seen. Thorns also works 70+.

Barb has no skill passives relating to 1H Swords or Axes, only Maces. I’m excluding the one odd rare glyph or two on the paragon board.
Could you point the fucking thing you complain about?
 

Saravan

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Viable is doing WT4 NMD at least into tier +30 (approx. lvl 70-80) you are going to struggle with those builds.
Bleed and ww also struggle at 70+. I've seen some guy with double swing close to 80 and seemed similar. And ds looked better than ww on lilith from what I've seen. Thorns also works 70+.

Barb has no skill passives relating to 1H Swords or Axes, only Maces. I’m excluding the one odd rare glyph or two on the paragon board.
Could you point the fucking thing you complain about?
WW struggles now after nerf. I'm not sure what you are defining as viable here but you are definitely not clearing shit up with double swing in any reasonable time. Hence, the word 'struggling'. Thorns relies on a unique, it's the item not the class that makes it.

Why are being so obtuse regarding 1H Swords or Axes? Why even have these item types in the game if you aren't going to support them in any of your classes. I understand you are a bit mentally challenged but that issue should be obvious.
 

ArchAngel

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Mar 16, 2015
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At around lvl 25-30 your build will effectively be the same for the rest of the game. Same skill rotation etc.
I've never seen so much ignorance and lieing in a thread before. Levels 25-30 barely qualify as a tutorial. You people are morons and liars. I hate to be an asshole but you deserve to be called out.
We understand your casual ass like to be buttfucked by casual or popamole games but there is no need to share that with us every 5 minutes

I remember similar opinions from you about Phoenix Point.
Also find it disingenious you played the beta only, watched some youtube vids and suddently are expert on the game.
Sad!
Phoenix Point is nowhere close to casual LOL. It might not be an excellent game but it is not a casual one.
 

Yosharian

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At around lvl 25-30 your build will effectively be the same for the rest of the game. Same skill rotation etc.
I've never seen so much ignorance and lieing in a thread before. Levels 25-30 barely qualify as a tutorial. You people are morons and liars. I hate to be an asshole but you deserve to be called out.
We understand your casual ass like to be buttfucked by casual or popamole games but there is no need to share that with us every 5 minutes

I remember similar opinions from you about Phoenix Point.
Also find it disingenious you played the beta only, watched some youtube vids and suddently are expert on the game.
Sad!
Phoenix Point is nowhere close to casual LOL. It might not be an excellent game but it is not a casual one.
I heard it's fucking terrible
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,869
At around lvl 25-30 your build will effectively be the same for the rest of the game. Same skill rotation etc.
I've never seen so much ignorance and lieing in a thread before. Levels 25-30 barely qualify as a tutorial. You people are morons and liars. I hate to be an asshole but you deserve to be called out.
We understand your casual ass like to be buttfucked by casual or popamole games but there is no need to share that with us every 5 minutes

I remember similar opinions from you about Phoenix Point.
Also find it disingenious you played the beta only, watched some youtube vids and suddently are expert on the game.
Sad!
Phoenix Point is nowhere close to casual LOL. It might not be an excellent game but it is not a casual one.
I heard it's fucking terrible
It was pretty bad at release. Now after years of patching, DLCs and its own version of Long War mod (Terror from the Void) it is a good game.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,250
WW struggles now after nerf. I'm not sure what you are defining as viable here but you are definitely not clearing shit up with double swing in any reasonable time. Hence, the word 'struggling'. Thorns relies on a unique, it's the item not the class that makes it.

All builds (that can even do it) struggle in that content (hota the least). That was the point because it's probably overtuned. You're doing the equivalent of complaining about build diversity in deep delve.
Thorns actually has multiple aspects and talents that support it. It's not just that chest that makes it work. It's definetly a class thing.

Why are being so obtuse regarding 1H Swords or Axes? Why even have these item types in the game if you aren't going to support them in any of your classes. I understand you are a bit mentally challenged but that issue should be obvious.
I am not obtuse, I really don't understand what you complain about. There are 1h passives and glyphs, dual wield only skills, all weapon types have expertises. I don't see how 1h maces are "supported" but 1h axes and swords not.
 

Saravan

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WW struggles now after nerf. I'm not sure what you are defining as viable here but you are definitely not clearing shit up with double swing in any reasonable time. Hence, the word 'struggling'. Thorns relies on a unique, it's the item not the class that makes it.

All builds (that can even do it) struggle in that content, that was the point because it's probably overtuned, hota the least. You're doing the equivalent of complaining about build diversity in deep delve.

Why are being so obtuse regarding 1H Swords or Axes? Why even have these item types in the game if you aren't going to support them in any of your classes. I understand you are a bit mentally challenged but that issue should be obvious.
I am not obtuse, I really don't understand what you complain about. I don't see how 1h maces are "supported" but 1h axes and swords not.
Yeah, no. End game for lvl 70-80 is significantly more varied in other ARPGs. Not comparable at all. It would be one thing to talk about what is capable at lvl +95. That's the equivalent of deep delve.

1H in general are badly supported in this game, which is absolutely retarded for a barbarian class. Maces at least have wallop and concussion passives and no mercy. These all synergize with stunned effects together with enchanced double swing. You are basically gimping yourself even harder trying to go swords or axes with a DS build. Before you run to icy veins or w/e to prove swords work, those builds rely on extremely rare uniques.
 

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