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Decline DiD WoW ruined MMOS?

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Frostfell
Recently, i decided to re play an mmo that i could't play during my childhood due awful internet connection. Only played an little and an at lv 25 at moment but mu online is completely different than other mmos. For eg >
  • No cooldowns, even the teleport skill for Dark Wizard has an casting delay, not cooldown, something amazing. CDs makes no sense. Luckily even potions doesn't have CDs.
  • The armor actually works like armor, aka making your more protected, not determining your charname's IQ and muscle mass, sure, is a little "carnival like" armor, but nothing is perfect.
  • Even on speedy server, there are very few people at level cap. The game isn't "everyone at lv cap/the game start at lv cap"
  • There are some degree of decision while leveling, for eg, do i wanna to invest into A and be allowed to use better armor or on B and be allowed to use other type of armor or in C and have access to an most powerful spell and increase my mana? Sure, is very simplistic compared to PF:KM for eg, but the game at least have simplistic RPG elements like Diablo 1/2.
I have heard that other pre WoW RPG's was very RPGish. That Ultima Online was very like Ultima offline. The same doesn't happens with most modern MMORPG's, for eg. KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 has no cooldowns and armor works like armor in the game. SWTOR, is very wow-like. Even Mu Legend, the continuation of Mu is now with a lot of wow-like BS like cooldowns and everyone of the same class at same level being an clone.

I don't like wow, but wow was undeniable extremely successful, so successful that a lot of people started to copy(something who is an awful terrible idea since wow has decades of content development and an community, nobody will leave his friends and guild mates to join in a different mmo and have exactly the same experience)

This is different than Overwatch, OW popularized the “hero shooter” genre but you don’t see battlefield and other FPS franchises copying the OW model… Imagine how silly if every FPS game comes with "ultimates" for eg and the same OW artstyle. With FPS, there are FPS for chose who wanna and fast phaced CQB action like Children's Online DayCare and for those who wanna an milsim, there are Arma 3, but MMOs...

Why every post WoW(2004) mmorpg is a wow clone???? There are few exceptions like Eve Online but that is it.

ps : I have heard that ragnarok online is very different thanthe 6534373465326537645*10²³ wow clones that exist, but barely played.
 

Darkforge

Augur
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
216
Yes it did because it was so wildly and retardedly successful the People with the money required to fund a project with a huge scope of a real MMO world required WOW subscriber numbers leading to everyone just trying to clone it's success.

(Also the EQ1 Shadowknight is the greatest MMO class ever created.)
 
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anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
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Location
Kelethin
WoW isn't responsible for other developers lacking creativity.
Yeah it is not WoW's fault all the other mmo's copied it. However it is WoW's fault for dumbing down the MMO genre so far and so early. Everquest is my number one game, ever, but there were things I would have liked them to change. The death penalty never needed to be so harsh, the grind didn't need to be so long, finding a group shouldn't be so hard, etc. But WoW fixed these things with a sledgehammer. So in EQ when you die, you lost a big chunk of exp (hours worth), had to travel far back to your corpse, and your corpse contained all your gear so getting to it was extra hard, and getting it out from under whatever killed you, while now naked, was a tough puzzle and may not even be doable alone. The WoW death penalty is, you become an invincible ghost, nothing can touch you or even see you, you respawn close to where you died, you run back and 30 seconds later you are all recovered automatically. A slight exp debt is all that remains. The two things are such extremes, it sucks they didn't go more down the middle.

The grind in EQ, it took me about 12 months playing like a total no lifer to reach max level 50. In WoW, it took me 1 month. Also the thing that bugs me the most about WoW, is that it is generally far too easy. In EQ, at any level, if you don't fight well, you will easily die. Even at level 1 you have to time your spells, use a buff before the fight, pull the mob to a safe place, and make sure you don't get jumped by any extras. In WoW, you can literally click a mob and go afk. Not exaggerating, I tested it. Just click, character starts auto attacking, and you win without using any abilities. Character is at about 50% at the end. And then a few seconds later you are regenned to full. It gets tougher at higher levels, but it is still a lot easier.

I love a lot of what WoW did though, the classes had better design, the Druid is amazing to play. I love the Battlegrounds, the PVP arena, etc. But mostly it was a really dumbed down weaker version of what came before. If it was the only one, it wouldn't matter. But it sucks that this is the game which was the template for every MMO since about 2004.
 
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Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,002
It ruined them in the way that it made huge success with this template that everyone then tried to copy.
Also by creating a huge mass of idiots (large part of which has never played any other game, or genre) who then based their expectations of every other game on WoW and polluted their communities.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Great post anvi.

I’ll just add that other MMOs had begun to be a bit easier before WoW came along. For example, Dark Age of Camelot had a much easier and shorter grind than EQ. However, I’ll say that it still retained the sense that the grind was still part of the gameplay. Yes, some people would try to hurry through the grind to get to Realm Vs Realm PvP, but there was enough complexity/content in the PvE to keep non PvPers happy.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
WoW looked at what other MMO did and improved on it, they didnt "ruined MMOs" because they mostly did logical progression of existing systems ... WoW was evolutionary and not revolutionary.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
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MMOs were ruined by things like:

  • Free online strategy guides (wowhead etc..)
  • Data mining
  • Infusion of overwhelming competitive mindsets via things like twitch, youtube, tournaments, etc..
  • Addons that allow for 'autopilot' play
  • Beta testing
  • 3rd party auto-calculation softwares
  • Ultra polish and banning/removal of overlooked mechanics etc..
These things basically solve and explore the game before it's even released and combined with overwhelming competitive mindsets among the playerbases remove a huge chunk of what made old school mmos so much fun (discovery/exploration/creativity).

What's annoying is that most of these problems are unavoidable and the game developers have very little control over these. So they can't really design games anymore that have these great elements built in because, before the game even releases, the secrets have been unveiled and spoiled, everyone knows how to play optimally, and guess what: if you don't play optimally you don't get invited to teams.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
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Messages
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All those things are true, and such a shame :(

At one point, top guilds used to protect their known strategies for raid bosses so that rival guilds couldn't even compete without figuring it out themselves. They were careful about leaking 'strats'. Nowadays people blab their stupid mouths off about everything, and it is made worse by all these wwwwwwwwwatsup broooo streamers who will sell out their guild just to get some views.

Also in EQ originally, it didn't let you alt-tab, not sure if it was a technical problem or if they did it on purpose. But the result is that nobody had maps of zones or strategy guides to anything, unless they had a spare laptop which wasn't common back then. Nowadays everyone knows everything. Also in EQ, there was no in game map, so you used to have to navigate using landmarks and your brain. People with a bad sense of direction would spend a lot of their time completely lost. Now in games there is not only a map, but a radar that shows you everything. The UI plays the game for you now.

Also in EQ, not only was the beta test tiny and mostly just "friends & family", but the game had so many mysteries anyway. There are still things today people don't know. And a secret room in a dungeon might only be visited by 1 person a month. People would find a rare mob that had a super rare item, and they might be the only person in the game with it for a long time. In 1999, there was hardly anything about it online, the entire internet was new, and no google. People figured things out by playing and talking to people in game. Now there is a webpage explaining everything and a database of every quest, mob, item, etc.

The internet created the genre and then was responsible for ruining it.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
14,709
Location
Frostfell
One more update. Even mu online, without CDs and other boring BS mechanics, i found extremely repetitive and uninstalled... Still better than 99% of other mmos, is just not for me.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
MMOs were ruined by things like:

  • Free online strategy guides (wowhead etc..)
  • Data mining
  • Infusion of overwhelming competitive mindsets via things like twitch, youtube, tournaments, etc..
  • Addons that allow for 'autopilot' play
  • Beta testing
  • 3rd party auto-calculation softwares
  • Ultra polish and banning/removal of overlooked mechanics etc..
These things basically solve and explore the game before it's even released and combined with overwhelming competitive mindsets among the playerbases remove a huge chunk of what made old school mmos so much fun (discovery/exploration/creativity).

What's annoying is that most of these problems are unavoidable and the game developers have very little control over these. So they can't really design games anymore that have these great elements built in because, before the game even releases, the secrets have been unveiled and spoiled, everyone knows how to play optimally, and guess what: if you don't play optimally you don't get invited to teams.

You are so wrong!

Massive Multiplayer Online games = lots of players play online together.
Human together = sharing knowledge.

This is human nature, dog! Your complaint MIGHT be valid if it's about offline single player game (maaaaaaybe~) but 100% wrong about MMO. an MMO game without that kind of sharing means noone play that game.

Basically, you dont like human aspect~ You want to be alone in your echo chamber, is all~
 

Voids

Augur
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
222
Location
California
You can't really blame WoW per se. Devs are just chasing the money. WoW was (is? never actually played it) mindblowingly popular for its time and will be copied for a long time to come.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
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inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
You are so wrong!

Massive Multiplayer Online games = lots of players play online together.
Human together = sharing knowledge.

This is human nature, dog! Your complaint MIGHT be valid if it's about offline single player game (maaaaaaybe~) but 100% wrong about MMO. an MMO game without that kind of sharing means noone play that game.

Basically, you dont like human aspect~ You want to be alone in your echo chamber, is all~

There's no reason to be social in the game when you can just tab out to a website and find the answer. In an older, unsolved MMO, if you couldn't figure out how to finish a quest or find a dungeon entrance or whatever you'd need to talk to people but now you go to the online wiki and find the answer, for example. And this basically applies to everything you'd do in an mmo.

Find some cool hidden easter egg? Nobody gives a fuck because it was data mined before it was patched into the game. Need help figuring out what talents to take? Check the wiki. Playing your spec sub-optimally? Read the guide dumbass, /kick. Playing the wrong class? /kick. etc...
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,002
You are so wrong!

Massive Multiplayer Online games = lots of players play online together.
Human together = sharing knowledge.
No, he's completely right. Early Everquest had far, far more player interaction than the games that came afterward. You used to ask people in game for advice or help, even directions. "I have a quest to slay the goblin king, where is he?" Now it's on your quest compass, and even if it weren't, you knew where it was going to be 10 levels ago when you read about the optimal quest route on a guide written by people who were in the beta. All without ever speaking to another person. And every aspect of MMOs is like this now, right down to how you even fight, what you wear and what you craft.

I have fond memories of just trying to travel, asking people for help and directions along the way, worrying I might get in over my head and squished by something well beyond my means. Not having a map of the area you're in made a huge difference, but nobody would put up with that these days and areas aren't dangerous areas to be explored, but linearly scaling grind zones to progress through.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
You are so wrong!

Massive Multiplayer Online games = lots of players play online together.
Human together = sharing knowledge.

This is human nature, dog! Your complaint MIGHT be valid if it's about offline single player game (maaaaaaybe~) but 100% wrong about MMO. an MMO game without that kind of sharing means noone play that game.

Basically, you dont like human aspect~ You want to be alone in your echo chamber, is all~

There's no reason to be social in the game when you can just tab out to a website and find the answer. In an older, unsolved MMO, if you couldn't figure out how to finish a quest or find a dungeon entrance or whatever you'd need to talk to people but now you go to the online wiki and find the answer, for example. And this basically applies to everything you'd do in an mmo.

Find some cool hidden easter egg? Nobody gives a fuck because it was data mined before it was patched into the game. Need help figuring out what talents to take? Check the wiki. Playing your spec sub-optimally? Read the guide dumbass, /kick. Playing the wrong class? /kick. etc...

Like I said, you just dont like a game with lots of other players~

In which case it make more sense to play obscure single player than any popular game, offline or online.

Of course, the risk of playing obscure single player is finding a good game.
I am a nostalgiafag who dont like current MMO
.
That is! And note you are in the super minority for that, because no one make a game like the old MMO games nowaday. Why? Because none would play it, is why.
 
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Azdul

Magister
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
3,368
Location
Langley, Virginia
There's no reason to be social in the game when you can just tab out to a website and find the answer. In an older, unsolved MMO, if you couldn't figure out how to finish a quest or find a dungeon entrance or whatever you'd need to talk to people but now you go to the online wiki and find the answer, for example. And this basically applies to everything you'd do in an mmo.
You can blame WoW for giving people idea that MMOs should be just like single-player RPG-light. You cannot have long-lasting consequences or meaningful decisions in MMOs - so MMO quests have only illusion of depth.

It ruined MMOs and many single-player games that follow WoW design. You can use online guide because the world is static and unchanging, and experience is always the same for every player, and there is no emergent gameplay.

You may argue that it was a right choice in 2004, when idea of MMO was relatively new, but it seems that currently WoW Classic is still seen as pinnacle of MMO design.

As a consequence, most sane people see MMOs as nothing but trash, the MMO market is shrinking, and kids play battle royale instead. It's all fault of the long shadow that WoW casts on MMO design.
 

Fedora Master

Arcane
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
28,003
You are so wrong!

Massive Multiplayer Online games = lots of players play online together.
Human together = sharing knowledge.
No, he's completely right. Early Everquest had far, far more player interaction than the games that came afterward. You used to ask people in game for advice or help, even directions. "I have a quest to slay the goblin king, where is he?" Now it's on your quest compass, and even if it weren't, you knew where it was going to be 10 levels ago when you read about the optimal quest route on a guide written by people who were in the beta. All without ever speaking to another person. And every aspect of MMOs is like this now, right down to how you even fight, what you wear and what you craft.

I have fond memories of just trying to travel, asking people for help and directions along the way, worrying I might get in over my head and squished by something well beyond my means. Not having a map of the area you're in made a huge difference, but nobody would put up with that these days and areas aren't dangerous areas to be explored, but linearly scaling grind zones to progress through.

Allakhazam was a thing even back then.
 

Jeru

Novice
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
62
That is! And note you are in the super minority for that, because no one make a game like the old MMO games nowaday. Why? Because none would play it, is why.
It seems like current MMORPGs as a genre aren't doing that great either. (with some exceptions like i.e FFXIV)
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
That is! And note you are in the super minority for that, because no one make a game like the old MMO games nowaday. Why? Because none would play it, is why.
It seems like current MMORPGs as a genre aren't doing that great either. (with some exceptions like i.e FFXIV)

Because as genre MMORPG has fallen from the rise and in a current valley. It will need time to build up to rise again.

Example: UI in the games are mostly fixed design and fixed position. You know what things are, where things should be. The gameplay also are pretty fixed with a variety of things that probabbly work and things not (crafting, puzzles, sneak...) There's sameness across all games.

What next? probabbly a quick (probabbly short) revival of servers with all kind of versions of old games to see, to test if the old versions can work in nowadays gaming environment. Like WOW classic servers as an example. There might be Everquest servers, though I doubt it. It had died good death~
 

PrettyDeadman

Guest
It ruined gaming in general.
 

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