Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

[MpuMngwana]

I swear I told them I fucked their mom in the ass. I am playing a tough guy cop.

Dunno, I might have misremembered. All I'm certain is there was a mom joke during that conversation, might as well been fucking in the ass.

 

[Luckmann]

Does it now?

It really doesn't, he's just full of shit. There's very little in terms of the "consequences" in Disco Elysium, and very few choices aside from the manner in which you say things and what/when you choose to do things. There's practically no branches whatsoever, and you'll never see the world itself from different sides based on your choices (outside of the skills, maybe, which lets you see some things in a new light, but rarely from a new angle).

What Disco Elysium has is a lot of subtleness to the C&C that it does have. There's rarely any big consequences, but there's many, many small ones, and a choice of words or what you choose to do before something else will result in different reactions. The "muh C&C" is fundamentally different and ultimately has less of an impact, but it's well made.

 

[Lithium Flower]

This is the calculus that gnostic objectivetards use to establish the metadaemonic rankings of vidya:

quality rankings, no. But it's not hard to take any game and establish the scope of its c&c relative to another. New Vegas has more of it than Icewind Dale, Fallout 2 more than NWN, Arcanum more than Kotor. This isn't a point of contention.

No, it is pretty hard, unless you are just going by gut feeling (in which case why pretend like you are describing reality as opposed to your preferences?) "Scope of C&C" is such a general thing that to even being to "objectively" - ie, quantifiably - assess it, we would need to narrow it way the fuck down. For example, we could compare the average amount of dialogue options in a given type of encounter between NV and IWD. Or we could consider the number of ending permutations, of which there are more in FNV thanks to its many ending slides. Or maybe we could consider the amount of consequential mechanical options offered to the player on a per-encounter basis, of which Icewind Dale would probably have more of on average given its character development system, turn-based combat resolution, and so on. Even this is probably too broad, but you get the idea.

But at the end of the day, this quantitative assessment will not tell you which game is better than the other (which IMO is an impossible thing to determine because I don't think this magical property of "good" exists in the universe) or, more sensibly, which one you will like more - you need your subjective, personal heuristic for that, or to appeal to someone else's subjective heuristic. Even by considering C&C you are already exercising your subjective preferences in arbitrary valuing it over other factors. Just look at our anti-Semitic friend's post above - it demonstrates perfectly what I mean.

Basically, any time you write a statement like "New Vegas has better C&C than Icewind Dale," what you are really stating is "I liked the C&C in New Vegas more than the C&C in Icewind Dale." "New Vegas has more C&C than Icewind Dale" basically tells us nothing unless we really break it down. This isn't a pedantic point - if you want to use the "X is better than Y" statement as a linguistic shortcut to communicate the "I like x more than y" sentiment, more power to you - I just object to people who unironically buy into this unsubstantiated belief that there is this metaphysical hierarchy of games and we all ought to spend much time and effort divining it. Its just funny to see brave internet agnostic-atheists (to whom I belong) argue with each other about these esoteric forces of goodness and badness and their battle over the souls of games.

 

[Belegarsson]

That conversation on the payphone... I kinda caught what was happening and it kinda broke me too. This game is going to end on a downer, isn't it?

 

[Optimist]

That conversation on the payphone... I kinda caught what was happening and it kinda broke me too. This game is going to end on a downer, isn't it?

Just remember to

Spoiler

sleep on the island.

 

[HanoverF]

Did anybody here manage to die from too much nodding yet?

 

[Fredward]

Disco Elysium is the greatest game that has ever been made thank you and goodbye.

Expounded (contains actual spoilers):

Spoiler

I've never played anything like this. That it just so casually gamifies, and in a compelling way, internal monologue is already worth going googly-eyes over. And I know this is one of those things that as soon as someone does it everybody is like "Well, yeah. But I could have done that too." which is easy to say but (paraphrasing a video I saw once about a white square being painted on a bland [ie white, sweaty] and the curator responding to the common observation of "But I could do that") the simple fact is: you didn't. When Volition informed me that half of my skillset was compromised wrt Klaasje I was like mmm okay, noted BUT IT CONTINUED, it wasn't just a once off thing it kept coming up and as the story progressed and these various brain-factions offered various plausible interpretations of events it actually became difficult to decide who to trust. But also not really, because my brain-faction called Genre Savvy up and told me that OF COURSE you couldn't trust the Dangerous Dame in a detective noir but it also said that a) as this is a game that needs to come to certain conclusions she might a1) escape anyway and a2) injure your partner. Other factions also said: yes she's dangerous but I'm curious to see how this plays out and another one said: but I like her and another one said: but I want to be a Dangerous Dame (which is an aeshtetic my Harry adhered too throughout the game just btw). Now building a nice degree of uncertainty or wobbliness in your reader can be done a variety of ways, a common yet effective one is to simply not give them all the information or unreliable narrators (think Gone Girl), but this is the first time I've seen it done by situating you in the headspace of someone harboring multiple, contesting, plausible and sincere interpretations of the facts.

Some common criticisms I've seen is that the writing is pretentious. Now this might just be because I myself am extremely pretentious but I feel like this is one of the most insubstantial criticisms you can give a piece of writing, it's almost more of an observation than a legitimate criticism. The only time I feel its warranted is if you can literally see the person doesn't really know what they're saying but they feel it'd be more impactful if they made their blather fancy which is obviously not the case here. I've also seen that on Steam a lot of people seem to having difficulty understanding the writing, like on a comprehension level. This is most likely on account of how people on Steam are dumb. In which case the pretentiousness is certainly a feature, not a bug. I also really like some of the crunchy granola phrases like: glory to the ghosts of us and these long dyings. I am stealing these I have taken them I will not return them I don't know what they mean they are mine.

The other common one I've heard is that the investigation/the ending are anticlimactic. They are, but I don't think it's a bad thing/a mistake/unintentional. They had all the makings there of an entirely acceptable noir twist by the end there: the femme fatale, the stooge, the various maneuvered peons the fact that they then decided to go in an entirely lateral direction is an artistic/commentary-based choice, they didn't write themselves in a corner. At that point it was clear Martinaise was a tinderbox pulled in different directions by various motivated agents, it was untenable and all it took to boop it over the edge was the actions of one man compromised equal parts by his past and a psychoactive stickbug cryptid. The fact that they developed the situation to such a degree that it seems plausible that this errant murder of one man could push the situation to small scale civil war took skill. It is also entirely in line with a lot of the other misdirection the devs added to throw off what we've been indoctrinated to expect: portends of doom will lead somewhere, Harry's reaction to Dolores Dei must mean something substantial down the line, that damn door must be openable, something good is coming (it is).

One criticism I do have is that I don't know how well Harry as this entirely love-shattered man worked out. I get that he is but only because the game kept on telling me he is. This is another one of those situations where the devs seem aware of the situation they were creating and took some steps to address it but I don't know if it really worked. For example: it's impossible to create a game which conveys the kind of love that destroyed Harry, their answer: make it ex-post facto. Unfortunately this resulted in a constant tell don't show kind of scenario, answer: have a dream sequence near the end of the game that expounds on it. But it was so obvious that this was a facsimile irredeemably coloured by Harry's bitterness that genuine insight was impossible. Now mind you, this might just be an extremely ~high concept~ statement on love or memory or how investing in the idea of can turn your brain into an ouroboros but if so it went beyond me and/or I didn't find it all the compelling.

But what I think I like the most about the game is the simple, unconditional empathy that undergirds the writing. There aren't any monsters in Disco Elysium, there's no important NPC that seems to act consistently out of inchoate malice. He's a monstrous war criminal because he was left in a leaf compactor, raised in an orphanage, obtained by the military industrial complex and PTSD'd out the twat until no other possible manifestation of humanity was left available to him. He's a racist because his value system is rooted in a local past he takes pride in, participates in and because of the ready availability of a well-developed eugenics ideology that justifies his fears of cultural threat. She's an inept mother with a talisman fetish because she was treated as incapable by her parents and husband and abandoned by the latter and it's so easy to fall into replicating patterns of being or meaning in lieu of attaining genuine stability. It's this consistent refusal to resort to reductivity. Taking a corpse down from a tree or informing a woman her husband died in an utterly senseless drunken accident, tasks that would be the most superficial box-ticking in other games, are grounded in details like moving through her home, of having talked to her about silly things before, of stroking his hair as it comes loose in your hand or staring down his destroyed mouth that humanized them so immensely. It hurt me to do something that is so quotidian in games and that is beautiful.

Loose thoughts:

- I have a crush on Joyce and I am a gay man.

- the Pale is offensively sexy both visually and conceptually. The idea of dissolving into mathematics is neato and this semi-seductive space where you can go to un-be, to gradually decohere into the past is something I fuck with on a spiritual level.

- Cuno is a precious cinnabon.

- Harry is an Innocence or Harry is aggressively not an Innocence.

- Harry and Kim are OTP and if there's a sequel and they aren't endgame the game is shit and dumb actually.

 

[Egosphere]

This is the calculus that gnostic objectivetards use to establish the metadaemonic rankings of vidya:

quality rankings, no. But it's not hard to take any game and establish the scope of its c&c relative to another. New Vegas has more of it than Icewind Dale, Fallout 2 more than NWN, Arcanum more than Kotor. This isn't a point of contention.

No, it is pretty hard, unless you are just going by gut feeling

Good comment. I'll post my own thoughts on c&c and how we can/should measure it tomorrow.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I turned down becoming an art cop today. The reply I got from my conceptualization was meant to be a codex motto.

What was it?

Well, it's my signature

 

[Tigranes]

I died from nodding. My guy had 1hp total and had run out of health druggies.

....had to replay 20 mins of content but worth it

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I died from nodding. My guy had 1hp total and had run out of health druggies.

....had to replay 20 mins of content but worth it

How are you still not finished. I was playing like 2 hours a day and stil got done within a week.

 

[Tigranes]

I died from nodding. My guy had 1hp total and had run out of health druggies.

....had to replay 20 mins of content but worth it

How are you still not finished. I was playing like 2 hours a day and stil got done within a week.

Well, my friend, timestamp yesterday

Okay, my pseudo-capitalist-superstar-sophist has now COMPLETED the great circle of disco

 

[Haba]

Guys, I'm having hard time coming into terms with the fact that the game is done. I tried calling ZA/UM to talk about the game but they blocked my phone number. Tried waiting outside of their office, but they locked the door and refused to come outside.

Any recommendations for drug/alcohol combo that is guaranteed to wipe out short term memory? I want to wake up in a hotel room and not remember anything about the past two weeks.

 

[Alpan]

Expounded (contains actual spoilers):

Spoiler

I've never played anything like this. That it just so casually gamifies, and in a compelling way, internal monologue is already worth going googly-eyes over. And I know this is one of those things that as soon as someone does it everybody is like "Well, yeah. But I could have done that too." which is easy to say but (paraphrasing a video I saw once about a white square being painted on a bland [ie white, sweaty] and the curator responding to the common observation of "But I could do that") the simple fact is: you didn't. When Volition informed me that half of my skillset was compromised wrt Klaasje I was like mmm okay, noted BUT IT CONTINUED, it wasn't just a once off thing it kept coming up and as the story progressed and these various brain-factions offered various plausible interpretations of events it actually became difficult to decide who to trust. But also not really, because my brain-faction called Genre Savvy up and told me that OF COURSE you couldn't trust the Dangerous Dame in a detective noir but it also said that a) as this is a game that needs to come to certain conclusions she might a1) escape anyway and a2) injure your partner. Other factions also said: yes she's dangerous but I'm curious to see how this plays out and another one said: but I like her and another one said: but I want to be a Dangerous Dame (which is an aeshtetic my Harry adhered too throughout the game just btw). Now building a nice degree of uncertainty or wobbliness in your reader can be done a variety of ways, a common yet effective one is to simply not give them all the information or unreliable narrators (think Gone Girl), but this is the first time I've seen it done by situating you in the headspace of someone harboring multiple, contesting, plausible and sincere interpretations of the facts.

Some common criticisms I've seen is that the writing is pretentious. Now this might just be because I myself am extremely pretentious but I feel like this is one of the most insubstantial criticisms you can give a piece of writing, it's almost more of an observation than a legitimate criticism. The only time I feel its warranted is if you can literally see the person doesn't really know what they're saying but they feel it'd be more impactful if they made their blather fancy which is obviously not the case here. I've also seen that on Steam a lot of people seem to having difficulty understanding the writing, like on a comprehension level. This is most likely on account of how people on Steam are dumb. In which case the pretentiousness is certainly a feature, not a bug. I also really like some of the crunchy granola phrases like: glory to the ghosts of us and these long dyings. I am stealing these I have taken them I will not return them I don't know what they mean they are mine.

The other common one I've heard is that the investigation/the ending are anticlimactic. They are, but I don't think it's a bad thing/a mistake/unintentional. They had all the makings there of an entirely acceptable noir twist by the end there: the femme fatale, the stooge, the various maneuvered peons the fact that they then decided to go in an entirely lateral direction is an artistic/commentary-based choice, they didn't write themselves in a corner. At that point it was clear Martinaise was a tinderbox pulled in different directions by various motivated agents, it was untenable and all it took to boop it over the edge was the actions of one man compromised equal parts by his past and a psychoactive stickbug cryptid. The fact that they developed the situation to such a degree that it seems plausible that this errant murder of one man could push the situation to small scale civil war took skill. It is also entirely in line with a lot of the other misdirection the devs added to throw off what we've been indoctrinated to expect: portends of doom will lead somewhere, Harry's reaction to Dolores Dei must mean something substantial down the line, that damn door must be openable, something good is coming (it is).

One criticism I do have is that I don't know how well Harry as this entirely love-shattered man worked out. I get that he is but only because the game kept on telling me he is. This is another one of those situations where the devs seem aware of the situation they were creating and took some steps to address it but I don't know if it really worked. For example: it's impossible to create a game which conveys the kind of love that destroyed Harry, their answer: make it ex-post facto. Unfortunately this resulted in a constant tell don't show kind of scenario, answer: have a dream sequence near the end of the game that expounds on it. But it was so obvious that this was a facsimile irredeemably coloured by Harry's bitterness that genuine insight was impossible. Now mind you, this might just be an extremely ~high concept~ statement on love or memory or how investing in the idea of can turn your brain into an ouroboros but if so it went beyond me and/or I didn't find it all the compelling.

But what I think I like the most about the game is the simple, unconditional empathy that undergirds the writing. There aren't any monsters in Disco Elysium, there's no important NPC that seems to act consistently out of inchoate malice. He's a monstrous war criminal because he was left in a leaf compactor, raised in an orphanage, obtained by the military industrial complex and PTSD'd out the twat until no other possible manifestation of humanity was left available to him. He's a racist because his value system is rooted in a local past he takes pride in, participates in and because of the ready availability of a well-developed eugenics ideology that justifies his fears of cultural threat. She's an inept mother with a talisman fetish because she was treated as incapable by her parents and husband and abandoned by the latter and it's so easy to fall into replicating patterns of being or meaning in lieu of attaining genuine stability. It's this consistent refusal to resort to reductivity. Taking a corpse down from a tree or informing a woman her husband died in an utterly senseless drunken accident, tasks that would be the most superficial box-ticking in other games, are grounded in details like moving through her home, of having talked to her about silly things before, of stroking his hair as it comes loose in your hand or staring down his destroyed mouth that humanized them so immensely. It hurt me to do something that is so quotidian in games and that is beautiful.

Loose thoughts:

- I have a crush on Joyce and I am a gay man.

- the Pale is offensively sexy both visually and conceptually. The idea of dissolving into mathematics is neato and this semi-seductive space where you can go to un-be, to gradually decohere into the past is something I fuck with on a spiritual level.

- Cuno is a precious cinnabon.

- Harry is an Innocence or Harry is aggressively not an Innocence.

- Harry and Kim are OTP and if there's a sequel and they aren't endgame the game is shit and dumb actually.

A fantastic post.

there's no important NPC that seems to act consistently out of inchoate malice.

Though not really an important character in the grand scheme of things, I single out Cunoesse as a favorite for this reason -- that one is just pure, unbridled, even suicidal psychopathy, and a kid to boot. A rare sight in games, to be sure.

It's this consistent refusal to resort to reductivity.

Probably the best single-line summary of the game I've seen so far. Someone really fucking cared about all this -- the cops, the characters, the city, the world... precisely why the accusation of pretentiousness can be rejected.

 

[Tigranes]

Guys, I'm having hard time coming into terms with the fact that the game is done. I tried calling ZA/UM to talk about the game but they blocked my phone number. Tried waiting outside of their office, but they locked the door and refused to come outside.

Any recommendations for drug/alcohol combo that is guaranteed to wipe out short term memory? I want to wake up in a hotel room and not remember anything about the past two weeks.

Start off by turning on a twitch stream and singing the Smallest Church in Saint-Saens, three times

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

You know the game is well written if it makes you miss the days when you were a hobo.

 

[Stefmob]

So if Charles Bukowski would write a game or rpg campaign it would probably something like this

Verstuurd vanaf mijn BBF100-1 met Tapatalk

 

[Verylittlefishes]

So if Charles Bukowski would write a game or rpg campaign it would probably something like this

Verstuurd vanaf mijn BBF100-1 met Tapatalk

I think more about Richard Brotigan.

 

[Owlish]

Just take a minute and appreciate the fact that some no-name Estonian dude got some oligarch's ear and financing. And then made a game that the entirety of Cucklifornia wasn't able to do in 20 years.

All your false gods Sawyers, Avellones, Zietses, Fargos, all they can do is sniff Robert Kurvitz's balls and ass.

The imagery, the texts, the voice actors quality, the game design, everything is a hundred times better than your mundane fnvs and poes.

Compare this:


To this:


The first one is inane, boring music and picture, bad voice actor reading boringly into the mic. They change the voice actors so you wouldn't fall asleep. It's all meaningless and trite.

The second one grips you immediately, you wanna hear what he's got to say. Instant interest.

That's how do you it. Anyone who says FNV isn't shit is just a fortnite kid from FNV's era. Probably their first video game. Probably haven't played Fallout 1 and 2 even.

Wordy doesn't mean goody. It's very tryhard and an overly long sequence just to wakeup, but gaymers are easily impressed.

 

[Tigranes]

Guys, I have a friend that I demanded buy this game, and he loves it, but seems to be stuck in an endgame bug, any help would be appreciated

Spoiler

In his words:

1) I finish getting the Deserter to confess.
2) I tell him I'm under arrest.
3) This triggers the Phasmid to show up.

And then, he tries to start talking to the Phasmid. But before he can actually talk to it, there's an electrochemistry check.

It was a 10 check with bonuses for me because of talking to Lena and the pheromones. Apparently, for him, it's a 20 check, and actually impossible (rolling a 21 still fails).

Afterwards, you can't leave the conversation, "Retreat slowly. [Leave]" doesn't work. You are stuck in convo.\

Failing check just leads you to a dead-end of four options (like "Yell No!") but with no leave option or way to progress.

Any clues?

(Edited again to clarify exact case)

 

[fantadomat]

Guys, I have a friend that I demanded buy this game, and he loves it, but seems to be stuck in an endgame bug, any help would be appreciated

Spoiler

In his words:

1) I finish getting the Deserter to confess.
2) I tell him I'm under arrest.
3) This triggers the Phasmid to show up.

And then, he tries to start talking to the Phasmid. But before he can actually talk to it, there's an electrochemistry check.

It was a 10 check with bonuses for me because of talking to Lena and the pheromones. Apparently, for him, it's a 20 check, and actually impossible (rolling a 21 still fails).

Afterwards, you can't leave the conversation, "Retreat slowly. [Leave]" doesn't work. You are stuck in convo.

Any clues?

(Edited again to clarify exact case)

https://fearlessrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?t=10530
Cheatengine have a table for that shit. Download there is 100% red check success. I used it to try and pass the dodge second bullet in the tribunal encounter.

Download: https://fearlessrevolution.com/download/file.php?id=18358

The second link is a direct download for the table if you can't find it.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I played as a moralist and Kim used it to defend me at the end.

Kim correctly identified me as a s★u★p★e★r★s★t★a★r cop "law official" but then decided this was at odds with my also being a "true blue moralist", apparently the result of my Moralist score being slightly higher than the scores for two of the other three ideological affiliations. They should have written something appropriate for a character with no definite preference in politics.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

AoD is actually kinda similar to Disco Disco, but whereas it only has C&C

significantly better writing

more interesting systems

AoD, on the other hand, has its bland, empty, indie-production looking world, and a fairly simple combat system, which dilute the experience.

Underrail is kinda fun for a while, but it's basically indie Fallout

You have no idea what you're talking about. This is a joke. This is ingrained decline in it's purest form. I bet you fucking love BG.

I don't know what "people" you are talking to, but since you are quoting my post...

Spoiler

1. I didn't bitch and moan
2. I am among the biggest fans of Underrail and AoD around here
3. I'm not qualified to help with functional illiteracy problems, but I can restate what I said last time: "DE is unique with the way it uses dialogue and with the amount of reactivity it provides". Unique as in - no one else is like it.
4. Like I also said in the news thread - "if the writing doesn't grip you, nothing can save the experience for you". But this is a subjective matter. What I argue is that with the way DE uses dialogue, it shows a new way for an RPG to allow the player to express his character, and then react to this character.

Great job evading the actual point; being DE is not in any way, shape or form pushing the RPG genre forward. Nice job maxing that dodge.

Disco's got more aesthetically pleasing stuff in it. Partial voice acting, more music, snazzier graphics.

Spoiler

What I argue is that with the way DE uses dialogue, it shows a new way for an RPG to allow the player to express his character, and then react to this character.

This is at best moving the CYOA/cRPG slider. This is not incline.

 

[frajaq]

this game needs a better Wardrobe system or just some way of sorting the clothes better

 

[HanoverF]

Thoughts get a cabinet, but not clothes