Do you believe in the concept of "system bloat" in RPGs?

[Butter]

Tell me how Knights of the Chalice would've been a better game if it had a beautifully executed racing game stapled on.

 

[Darkozric]

Tell me how Knights of the Chalice would've been a better game if it had a beautifully executed racing game stapled on.

It would've been more prestigious if it had a sophisticated dancing game.

 

[luj1]

Tell me how Knights of the Chalice would've been a better game if it had a beautifully executed racing game stapled on.

This is what the idiot rusty actually believes

 

[luj1]

Luj1 - you seem to have have a tendency to dislike multi-genre or multi-system, games. See the Sid Meier's games discussions. Which is ok as a preference. Forcing it as some kind of a rule - is not.

I never questioned that it was about the implementation.

But it was never implemented well in a CRPG. So I'm just saying fuck it.

 

[†††]

"This is not bloated, you just lack the constitution to enjoy this perfectly balanced meal"

The meal:

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Tell me how Knights of the Chalice would've been a better game if it had a beautifully executed racing game stapled on.

Kotc2 might have been a playable game with a decent horse rearing game attached at least

 

[luj1]

KotC 2 is an actual RPG so mere mention of it acts like soul poison to rusty

Underrail ripped him two new assholes, I think KotC 2 would make him into a serial killer

 

[rusty_shackleford]

KotC 2 is an actual RPG so mere mention of it acts like soul poison to rusty

Underrail ripped him two new assholes, I think KotC 2 would make him into a serial killer

kotc2 can't be an RPG because it's based on wotcrap garbage

(reminder that most of this site unironically likes 3E diarrhea while crying about 'muh bloat' btw)

 

[Serus]

Tell me how Knights of the Chalice would've been a better game if it had a beautifully executed racing game stapled on.

If you are talking to me: It wouldn't. Nowhere did I say or suggested or even suggested a suggestion that it would. How is even "racing" - a "strategy" or "stronghold"? Or where where did I say something about "stapling on" anything on anything?
In short: Learn 2 read. Or buy glasses. And possibly anti-strawman gel.

However if you had a crpg about an adventure in a, say, a Roman-like city. They have chariot races there. Races that would play an integral(!) part in the story. Then a "beautifully executed" chariot racing manager could potentially add to the base crpg experience.

As i said before - has to be good, has to be integrated well and certainly you can't just add any genre to any other genre. An F-22 simulator added to Dark Souls X wouldn't make sense either. Duh.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Long answer is take away the RPG elements. Take away the stats, skilltrees, etc. What do you have left? Sort of an isometric beat 'em up game.

> Take away the design elements that make a game an RPG and said game will no longer be an RPG

Genius!
Truly, the question of "What is an RPG?" is forever settled

How can a realtime action game based on player reflexes be an RPG?

By designing the action mechanics in tandem with the RPG mechanics, in order to create a system that despite the player's skill, will stil determine the player's success and progression primarly based on the PC's skill

 

[DJOGamer PT]

And it was hated and most tried to skip it or mod it to be less of an annoyance

Most reviews of the game had no such complaints
And even here most people didn't mind it

 

[Butter]

If you are talking to me: It wouldn't. Nowhere did I say or suggested or even suggested a suggestion that it would. How is even "racing" - a "strategy" or "stronghold"? Or where where did I say something about "stapling on" anything on anything?
In short: Learn 2 read. Or buy glasses. And possibly anti-strawman gel.

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. My point was that such a thing would obviously constitute bloat, no matter the quality of the new systems. Therefore when people argue "It's not about quantity, it's about quality", they're talking shit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If you are talking to me: It wouldn't. Nowhere did I say or suggested or even suggested a suggestion that it would. How is even "racing" - a "strategy" or "stronghold"? Or where where did I say something about "stapling on" anything on anything?
In short: Learn 2 read. Or buy glasses. And possibly anti-strawman gel.

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. My point was that such a thing would obviously constitute bloat, no matter the quality of the new systems. Therefore when people argue "It's not about quantity, it's about quality", they're talking shit.

A quality animal raising simulation system would make me interested though.

Can you explain why a system where you raise a horse, presumably to eventually ride in combat, expressed using RPG mechanics would be bad?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

And for those curious, you can find detailed rules on how to acquire & bond with a mount in AD&D 2E's "Complete Paladin's Handbook", and animal rearing rules in "Complete Ranger's Handbook"

 

[Butter]

If you are talking to me: It wouldn't. Nowhere did I say or suggested or even suggested a suggestion that it would. How is even "racing" - a "strategy" or "stronghold"? Or where where did I say something about "stapling on" anything on anything?
In short: Learn 2 read. Or buy glasses. And possibly anti-strawman gel.

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. My point was that such a thing would obviously constitute bloat, no matter the quality of the new systems. Therefore when people argue "It's not about quantity, it's about quality", they're talking shit.

A quality animal raising simulation system would make me interested though.

Can you explain why a system where you raise a horse, presumably to eventually ride in combat, expressed using RPG mechanics would be bad?

Maybe it wouldn't be bad. I wasn't arguing that Knights of the Chalice couldn't possibly benefit from the addition of more systems. Rather, there are systems that would add nothing to the game and would obviously be considered bloat, no matter how well they're executed. People were arguing earlier in the thread that system bloat is a misdiagnosis of bad systems, and I'm disproving that rhetorically.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If you are talking to me: It wouldn't. Nowhere did I say or suggested or even suggested a suggestion that it would. How is even "racing" - a "strategy" or "stronghold"? Or where where did I say something about "stapling on" anything on anything?
In short: Learn 2 read. Or buy glasses. And possibly anti-strawman gel.

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. My point was that such a thing would obviously constitute bloat, no matter the quality of the new systems. Therefore when people argue "It's not about quantity, it's about quality", they're talking shit.

A quality animal raising simulation system would make me interested though.

Can you explain why a system where you raise a horse, presumably to eventually ride in combat, expressed using RPG mechanics would be bad?

Maybe it wouldn't be bad. I wasn't arguing that Knights of the Chalice couldn't possibly benefit from the addition of more systems. Rather, there are systems that would add nothing to the game and would obviously be considered bloat, no matter how well they're executed. People were arguing earlier in the thread that system bloat is a misdiagnosis of bad systems, and I'm disproving that rhetorically.

But I just proved that if the system was done well, it could very well be an overall benefit to the game.

No bloat, only poorly implemented systems.

 

[luj1]

Poorly implemented subsystems *are* bloat, you demented cretin

 

[Monkeyfinger]

WOTR crusade with instantaneous movement times for player armies on the world map and no loading screens for accessing the main screen or town screens would be pretty good.

 

[Darkozric]

I want to bond with my horse, I want to feed it, clean it, collect the poop and brush its teeth. Give us a horse friend, codex devs.
Also I want an orgies sim. Can you explain why a system where you organize an orgy, presumably to eventually take your lovers in combat, expressed using RPG mechanics would be bad?

For those curious, you can find detailed rules on how to organize an orgy in AD&D 2E's "Complete Trollop's Handbook", and butt fisting rules in "Complete cuck's Handbook".

 

[zapotec]

Why keep using OD&D as reference, it wasn't even a complete system without CHAINMAIL. It was like using the free version of BASIC

 

[Zombra]

Do you believe in the concept of "system bloat" in RPGs?

Of course. More is not always better; it's that simple.

Not every game's intended experience is for players to have a big playground of unrelated systems to goof around with at their leisure, and as a player, this is generally not what I am looking for. I want an experience with focus and direction; really good combat mechanics, or really thoughtful detective mechanics, or brilliantly diverse yet balanced party building, or really good psycho horror. None of these are helped by a fishing minigame, stacking dinner plates, or collecting floating gold coins hidden around the levels. That shit only serves to distract from why I'm really here, and saps the impact of what the game is supposed to be about.

Sure, sometimes a playground filled with a million toys can be fun, if that's the point; but for me it is almost never the point.

 

[Not.AI]

Fallout 4's settlement system exists because of another shitty Bethesda system: excessive loot

excessive loot

Excessive loot needs/deserves its own thread.

Edit. DONE.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

System/mechanics bloat is absolutely a thing and can ruin otherwise good games. I see it generally from three sources:

1. Passionate, but somewhat inexperienced devs with big ideas
2. Experienced devs working on 10+ year personal projects, and who don't give a fuck
3. Assholes who want to shove more things in a game so they have more options for monetization, leading to 17 different currencies

What are Everspace 2, Star Citizen, and Elite: Dangerous?

 

[Tyranicon]

System/mechanics bloat is absolutely a thing and can ruin otherwise good games. I see it generally from three sources:

1. Passionate, but somewhat inexperienced devs with big ideas
2. Experienced devs working on 10+ year personal projects, and who don't give a fuck
3. Assholes who want to shove more things in a game so they have more options for monetization, leading to 17 different currencies

What are Everspace 2, Star Citizen, and Elite: Dangerous?

Devs who have the balls to keep you r money hostage.

Is Everspace 2 really in the same league as the other two though? Only played the first.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

RPGs are usually combined with the visual novel genre.