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Do you believe in the concept of "system bloat" in RPGs?

gurugeorge

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luj1 often mentions this as something that is a major, deal-breaking flaw in RPGs. Let's discuss.

Most of us here are more towards the spergy end of the spectrum, so we like complexity, but even for us there are limits. I think it's true that at some point, a system can get so complicated that the flow of in-the-moment gameplay can be adversely affected. There is such a thing as too many options and choices to consider for a next move - too many for normies, too many for the average sperg here, and in a few cases even too many for the ultra-spergs here.

What's most annoying is when some of those options are just "noise" that don't really affect the gameplay much, but one's brain is compelled to consider them because that's just what spergy brains can't help doing. (Like, for example, if you're compelled to check and re-check before making the next move, it's annoying when some of the things you're going over before committing are essentially pointless.)

I think there's a sweet spot (probably connected to short-term memory retention and things like that - which, again, will be variable beween normies and spergs, but stilll within some general human-like level) where you have a satisfying amount of genuinely functional complexity (complexity worth considering), but not so much that it interferes with the illusion of there being some kind of actual combat (or other kind of interaction) going on.

For me the rule of thumb always boils down to: is my head in the virtual world, or do I just feel like a chump in a chair playing a game on a computer? If the complexity is such that it leads more to the latter feeling, then something has been lost.
 
Unwanted

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I'm playing Vagrant Story right now and that game has so many mechanics built upon other mechanics and so on, mechanics that work against each other, mechanics so obtuse that you have to check a guide because the in-game guides only exist to mislead the player... the experience often turns into a chore, 20% gameplay and 80% menu-ing. GGS (RIP) talked about it here and even then he failed to mention some more mechanics that exist only to frustrate the player.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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luj1 often mentions this as something that is a major, deal-breaking flaw in RPGs. Let's discuss.

Most of us here are more towards the spergy end of the spectrum, so we like complexity, but even for us there are limits. I think it's true that at some point, a system can get so complicated that the flow of in-the-moment gameplay can be adversely affected. There is such a thing as too many options and choices to consider for a next move - too many for normies, too many for the average sperg here, and in a few cases even too many for the ultra-spergs here.

What's most annoying is when some of those options are just "noise" that don't really affect the gameplay much, but one's brain is compelled to consider them because that's just what spergy brains can't help doing. (Like, for example, if you're compelled to check and re-check before making the next move, it's annoying when some of the things you're going over before committing are essentially pointless.)

I think there's a sweet spot (probably connected to short-term memory retention and things like that - which, again, will be variable beween normies and spergs, but stilll within some general human-like level) where you have a satisfying amount of genuinely functional complexity (complexity worth considering), but not so much that it interferes with the illusion of there being some kind of actual combat (or other kind of interaction) going on.

For me the rule of thumb always boils down to: is my head in the virtual world, or do I just feel like a chump in a chair playing a game on a computer? If the complexity is such that it leads more to the latter feeling, then something has been lost.

You're right, but we can say this in much simpler ways.

1) What is my core gameplay?
2) Does this element detract from core gameplay?

It's very simple.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Feature bloat is common in devs who don't know what they're doing. Such people lack purity of vision, so they keep adding stuff like baking cookies, camping, sailing ships and cluttering the game.

Of course, it's even worse when you can't avoid the clutter. Kingdom management for example.

Feature bloat is also a common product of crowdfunding because people have to come up with stretch goals, quickly. Then the game turns into a theme park and wants to be everything at once. It wants to be an RPG, but also wants to be HoMM and Sea Dogs.

In the end, it turns out shallow and mediocre.
 
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luj1

You're all shills
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I have a better theory. I made you eternally butthurt long ago. And now it's incurable. Isn't that great?
 

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I have a better theory. I made you eternally butthurt long ago. And now it's incurable. Isn't that great?
You being unable to grasp that RPGs depict an explorable world. And that, that world can be described to you in more than one way doesn't have to do with anything you just said.

See, unlike you... I don't go for ad hominems. I stay on topic. And I'm calling you a simpleton, because you *are* one. Based on what you said in *this* thread.

Now, who's being butthurt, again?
 

luj1

You're all shills
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You being unable to grasp that RPGs depict an explorable world.

No one is disputing that the "world" that exists in an RPG is "explorable". We are talking design mechanics here. You are lost bro.

Now, who's being butthurt, again?

You man.

kyG6R7z.jpeg
 
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The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
No one is disputing that the "world" that exists in an RPG is "explorable". We are talking design mechanics here. You are lost bro.
Now you're using different terminology, because I've driven you into a corner, and you can't handle it.

We told you in several different ways that an RPG is made out of features. And features are made out components called "mechanics".

If my fishing "feature" is made by seamless "mechanics" and my cooking "feature" is made by seamless "mechanics", and so on, and so on... that is a well-made RPG, because every feature is made to enhance the way you explore the world you're given by the DM/developer/creator.




Same thing with a stronghold.




Now... refute this.
Having to explain things like this, is really like talking to a child.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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If my fishing "feature" is made by seamless "mechanics" and my cooking "feature" is made by seamless "mechanics", and so on, and so on... that is a well-made RPG, because every feature is made to enhance the way you explore the world

This is the biggest bullshit.

Fishing and cooking are "seamless" and "enhance exploration", therefore an RPG is "well-made"? You cannot make such dumb generalisations because it depends on the implementation.
 

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Fishing and cooking are "seamless" and "enhance exploration", therefore an RPG is "well-made"? You cannot make such dumb generalisations because it depends on the implementation.
You're typing the same thing that I just typed.

You cannot focus on a simple idea. Hence why you're a simpleton. Do you understand now?
 

luj1

You're all shills
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If a feature is implemented seamlessly, that is the mark of a good RPG.

Okay. Well implemented systems are the mark of good design. No shit. And who questioned that?

Two posts ago you said that clutter enriches gameplay, clutter which is literally the opposite of being well implemented.

Keep the ad hominems going. They're really making you look better. :)

Well, you are doing the same. The difference is that I don't give a shit. You are on RPG Codex, grow some skin, you are trembling like a bitch.
 
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luj1

You're all shills
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*drumroll* And? No one did it well.

Just fuck off with that bullshit and focus on core gameplay like adventuring and killing monsters.
 

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