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Does CD Projekt underpay and abuse its developers?

Drowed

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People deserve respect regardless of their job. I don't understand where this apathy of yours stems from.

It comes from the fact that it is difficult to empathize with a person who has the option to solve the problem and does not, and continues to complain about it. We can take Lacrymas' example of a woman in an abusive relationship. You see this woman going through the problem, she comes to you, talks about what she is going through, how much she suffers, and that her boyfriend is terrible with her. Etc, etc. You, like every normal, empathetic human being, say that this must be very sad indeed. And you ask her why she is still with him, after all, she could end this relationship and seek another person. But then she says no, she doesn't want another relationship. She wants this relationship. She wants her abusive boyfriend to magically turn into someone else and treat her well.

And this is where empathy goes away.

It's not that the person is being a victim of a situation without options, it's that they're actively choosing to stay in that situation and keep complaining about what they're suffering. Yes, all human beings deserve to be treated fairly, with dignity and honesty. But when you knowingly and voluntarily choose to stay in a situation (or with someone) that does this to you, when you have the option to leave and don't do it, it's not surprising that people stop empathizing, and begin to think that you are masochistic or retarded. And yes, for one part of society, this situation is justified - the part that really has no option left, whether it's the woman who moved to live alone overseas with her boyfriend and has no money or support group (so she's really stuck in that situation), or for people without training or skills who are working in an awful job in a country with high unemployment rate, so the option would often be to starve in the street.

But that's not the case with people who work with game development. And I say that as someone who lives in a shit third world country.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
suffering
"being able to feed my family and pay rent is suffering"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130802165603.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/public...Negative_Impact_on_Health_and_Quality_of_Life
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6617405/

But of course, worsened mental and physical health, quality of life, stress, anxiety, depression, even increased suicidal tendencies are all minor nuances and the signs of crybabies. Just work through those effects. Not being able to enjoy the only life you have is a footnote.
 

InD_ImaginE

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It comes from the fact that it is difficult to empathize with a person who has the option to solve the problem and does not, and continues to complain about it. We can take Lacrymas' example of a woman in an abusive relationship. You see this woman going through the problem, she comes to you, talks about what she is going through, how much she suffers, and that her boyfriend is terrible with her. Etc, etc. You, like every normal, empathetic human being, say that this must be very sad indeed. And you ask her why she is still with him, after all, she could end this relationship and seek another person. But then she says no, she doesn't want another relationship. She wants this relationship. She wants her abusive boyfriend to magically turn into someone else and treat her well.

This is not a comparable example. A more apt example is that the woman is looking for another relationship while complaining because she for whatever reason needs her partner to feed her. If she leaves now she will starve. So she complain in hoping that external force can make a pressure for her partner while she is also looking for a better relationship. If external factor can help it is great. If it can't than at least she is doing something while she find another realtionship to support her life.

You do realize that in absence of a job people can go from normal living to homeless and jobless?
 

Hace El Oso

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Because it's easy to dehumanize them as crybabies... They also aren't informed enough/don't care enough to know that working this crazy brings health and personal problems along with it.

I find the two-faced nature of private sector labor policy irritating, absolutely. The stated 'rules' and 'values' simply do not exist in the reality on the ground and those that benefit from that reality often have, as expected, a finely honed obtuseness about the whole thing. "What? I had no idea, that is not in accordance with our..." etc. etc.

But these people are not "working crazy" . Patrolling the jungle for weeks on end playing cat and mouse with communist rebels, that's working crazy. Working on an oil rig in arctic conditions for two weeks at a time, detailing it spotless, that's working crazy. Pushing mine carts full of slag around while living in a converted shipping container, that's working crazy.
A schoolmate of mine from prep school went to work for a big American tech company as an AI engineer. Sometimes they have to sleep at the office, work on the weekends. And then they bought a multimillion dollar house outright by cashing in the bitcoin they were paid in by age 32. Not working crazy.

There is no lack of artist/programmer in the modern world be it in video games development or not. Heck nowadays unless you are very very specialized there is no lack of anything in terms of manpower.

Nonsense, to the extent that there is a lack for anything it is a lack of trained and able tech workers. If you are one, congratulations, you are literally the envy of the entire planet.

My initial point is that people who are stuck in shit working conditions might do so because there is no critical demand for them... Get out more. Speak more with people who are less fortunate. Get a reality check.

Let me put this simply and clearly: NONE of the people you're responding to are talking about lower class people. They are exclusively talking about well-paid white collar workers. Ok?

I'll be the first to admit that my life has also been handed to me on a silver spoon...

Everybody can tell, it's part of why you bring out such a negative reaction from some people when you talk about this.

People deserve respect regardless of their job. I don't understand where this apathy of yours stems from. Is it envy? Lack of personal satisfaction or maybe an excess of it?

The "tough love" attitude is, I agree, very tiresome. Out in the wild, unsolicited, it often stems from simply being a douchebag, an anus with no empathy or care for anyone other than themselves. But maybe in this case the attitude you don't like stems from not needing to worry about making ~100k USD a year any time soon and not having a constant and growing public support brigade for their troubles. Maybe it's because even though they do, they understand how bad it could be.

What if the people complaining aren't coders who could work in other software projects, but writers who can only do games? :M

Writing is a skill, rarely an art. If they have the trained ability then there are jobs out there for them.
 
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InD_ImaginE

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Writing is a skill, rarely an art. If they have the trained ability then there are jobs out there for them.

This is assuming way too much. There are too many people with the same skill and you can easily find yourself without a job.

Let me put this simply and clearly: NONE of the people you're responding to are talking about lower class people. They are exclusively talking about well-paid white collar workers. Ok?

The whole point is that even white collar jobs can also have shit working conditions. Do you consider a white-collar jobs where you have to work 80 - 90 hours a week from Monday to Friday to be a decent job?
 
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"being able to feed my family and pay rent is suffering"

When you need to do 90 hours a week? It is. It is a suffering that many people have to accept because troglodytes like you are blind that having a decent life means more than having money in your bank account
wow, maybe we should implement labor laws that prevent this sort of thing because that sounds bad!
 

Serious_Business

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But that's not the case with people who work with game development. And I say that as someone who lives in a shit third world country.

This is not a sentimental issue about liking abuse or not getting over an attachment like your example of a beat up woman (or man, for that matter) in a toxic relationship, it has more to do with class consciousness of the workers in this field - how they are able to organize collectively to protect themselves against abusive employers. If someone does it on their own, quits, it doesn't do anything, the situation stays the same ; it's not a collective solution. If you want to keep the abusive relationship analogy, you'd have to put it like this : people who are in abusive relationship don't need empathy, they need social protection. Women don't quit abusive relationships if they know they're going to be beat up or something ; they need the law and institutions behind them to work through it. The workers in the video game industry certainly don't need protection most of the time, but it is still a very competitive market and they have to endure conditions most of the time. which is a shitty thing to live for any worker, whatever their salary might be. Money doesn't make life better at a certain point. If people are being insensitive to this, whatever - it's up to the workers to organize their shit and say fuck off to the employers. Some right wing asshole raging at workers and telling them to "man up" doesn't impact anything on anything, except perhaps the morale of weak-willed individuals who don't feel like their desires are legitimate, and need some kind of moral or social support to get what they need and want. A desire is legitimate only if you fight for it.[/QUOTE]
 

Drowed

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This is not a comparable example. A more apt example is that the woman is looking for another relationship while complaining because she for whatever reason needs her partner to feed her. If she leaves now she will starve. So she complain in hoping that external force can make a pressure for her partner while she is also looking for a better relationship. If external factor can help it is great. If it can't than at least she is doing something while she find another realtionship to support her life.

I don't agree with your example and I think you are either lying, or you are being intentionally ignorant.

People with the skills, training and knowledge to work with game design do not arrive at this kind of job by random chance. They are people with enough financial security and education to devote themselves to an extremely specific and specialized area of all possible kinds of work. They are certainly in the privileged group of society - here where I live, for someone to even study something in the field of computing they certainly need to be members of the middle class, or that would be impossible. And they consciously decided to work with that specific area, in that specific company.

It is like a woman deciding to get involved with a specific man already knowing about his abusive tendencies and him having proven cases of violence against women in the past
 

Lacrymas

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They are certainly in the privileged group of society
I wouldn't call being a drone especially privileged, but you are right there are worse fates in the world. However, the logical extreme is just torturing people for the hell of it in order to not care about any other instance of suffering. It is insanity, greater sufferings don't negate smaller ones. We have not "chosen to concentrate on the smaller ones", this is just what came up organically in the conversation and is the topic of this thread.
 

Naraya

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At one of these discussions, someone said something that really stuck in my head: People like da Vinci, Raphael et al didn't create their best works working 8h/day.

Also - being from Poland let me tell you that having CD Projekt on your résumé opens every fucking door for you.
 

Lambach

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It is not I who is the problem.

Oh, there are people who beg to differ. For one, I think anyone virtue-signaling about what a grand, moral, beautiful person they are on an obscure vidya forum and not actually doing a goddamn fucking thing to help anyone is, indeed, the problem (or at least a small part of the problem).
 
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Honestly, the more I think about it the more I agree with you guys. Relocating jobs is the best way to help the truly needy, therefore we should do everything possible to ensure those jobs get relocated.
 

Tigranes

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It comes from the fact that it is difficult to empathize with a person who has the option to solve the problem and does not, and continues to complain about it. We can take Lacrymas' example of a woman in an abusive relationship. You see this woman going through the problem, she comes to you, talks about what she is going through, how much she suffers, and that her boyfriend is terrible with her. Etc, etc. .

This is a good example of how when we don't know the details of a situation, it's really easy to imagine it as: if something sucks, just leave - if you don't, it's your fault.

In some cases, this is true. The 18 year old girl whining about her shitty boyfriend but doesn't have the courage to break up? Yeah, suck it up, kid. But there are also cases where the "choice" you have isn't actually much of a choice.

In some countries, for example, the abused woman has the 'choice' of going to the police and reporting the abuse - but they don't, because it is such a well documented fact that the police will often tell the woman it's not a big deal, call up the husband and tell them to sort it out - meaning an extra huge beating when they get back home. And if they leave the husband, will the husband consent to divorce, or will they hound them down for years to come? I'm not saying this is the case every single time. It's an example of how it is not really a rational basis for judgment when we leave all the information out and just say "are they FORCED or do they have CHOICE".

Any logically sound model of the choices people have available to them, has to take all significant forms of costs and constraints into account. When you are a slave, you theoretically have the choice of running away or starting a rebellion. But depending on the situation, it's not really going to be a choice you can take.
 

Lacrymas

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not actually doing a goddamn fucking thing to help anyone is, indeed, the problem (or at least a small part of the problem).
I am! I am (or more like was) a member of Amnesty International. But no, people doing the bad deeds are the problem, not the ones who don't have the influence necessary to change anything.
 
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So what's the solution? How do we get Poland to implement 2 hour work weeks and 500% mandatory overtime pay?
When I was on the opposite side I had a clear, readily available solution on how to solve their problem.
You guys have a solution, right? How do we move forward from here?
 

InD_ImaginE

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So what's the solution? How do we get Poland to implement 2 hour work weeks and 500% mandatory overtime pay?
When I was on the opposite side I had a clear, readily available solution on how to solve their problem.
You guys have a solution, right? How do we move forward from here?

:lol:

Do you know how? making a fuss so policymakers will do their job! Go to your union if your industry is unionized. If it doesn't? Make an external movement through various channels (read: including Twitter) so there will be pressure on policymakers or the companies/industries. In my country it is not a first-time social media outrage follows into an actual movement which pressure policy maker to do something. Does it happen everytime? No. Should we stop doing that then? Of course not.

But that's not what a conservtard chad should do. They just suck it up that they are working 90 hours a day like a real man. Like rusty_shackleford , the paragon of mankind! Remember kid, if you complain you are a cuck!
 
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I am (or more like was) a member of Amnesty International.

I just lost that tiny little sliver of respect for you that I didn't even know I still had.
Wow, you are such a loser. You blame people for not doing anything, then blame them for trying to do something. What a joke.
doing something:
volunteering at a soup kitchen

not doing something:
becoming a member of an organization that spends most of its time discussing palestine
 

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