Does CD Projekt underpay and abuse its developers?

[Lacrymas]

How the FUCK are you doing anything by being a member of goddamn Amnesty fucking International, you sad, sad, fucking joke of a person?

No, you are the joke and a caricature. I thought at the time that AI is the way to go, I don't regret it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So what's the solution? How do we get Poland to implement 2 hour work weeks and 500% mandatory overtime pay?

When I was on the opposite side I had a clear, readily available solution on how to solve their problem.
You guys have a solution, right? How do we move forward from here?

Do you know how? making a fuss so policymakers will do their job! Go to your union if your industry is unionized. If it doesn't? Make an external movement through various channels (read: including Twitter) so there will be pressure on policymakers or the companies/industries. In my country it is not a first-time social media outrage follows into an actual movement which pressure policy maker to do something. Does it happen everytime? No. Should we stop doing that then? Of course not.

But that's not what a conservtard chad should do. They just suck it up that they are working 90 hours a day like a real man. Like rusty_shackleford , the paragon of mankind! Remember kid, if you complain you are a cuck!

...so, you don't?

 

[Lambach]

doing something:
volunteering at a soup kitchen

not doing something:
becoming a member of an organization that spends most of its time discussing palestine

Hey hey, his membership in AI means he's a better, more moral person than you, OK you empathy-lacking psycho? Sure, he's never actually done anything to help anyone less fortunate than him in his entire life, but god dang it, he's a proud member of Amnesty motherfucking International, so that means he's literally Jesus Christ 2.0

 

[InD_ImaginE]

...so, you don't?

Good job moving from "what crybabies, they are not suffering" to "now gimme solution to the problem otherwise stfu"

The point of discussion, initially was whether these people deserve to complain. Which you and others insist that they are not. Now you are moving the goalpost into "bo hoo what have you done huh? HUH HUH HUH? Hah losers"

Clap. Done like a true conservtard chad.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

...so, you don't?

Good job moving from "what crybabies, they are not suffering" to "now gimme solution to the problem otherwise stfu"

The point of discussion, initially was whether these people deserve to complain. Which you and others insist that they are not. Now you are moving the goalpost into "bo hoo what have you done huh? HUH HUH HUH? Hah losers"

Clap. Done like a true conservtard chad.

Virtue signaling on twitter isn't a solution though. I thought you guys had a solution prepared, I want to help the needy.

 

[Tigranes]

It's interesting how adding more benefits to the workers to currently existing norms is seen by some as a socialist / lazy ass / entitled / whatever move. There's a gaping logical fallacy, which is that whatever rules currently exist (or whatever rules set out by an employer) is considered the gold standard, and if you complain, you just can't with capitalism.

Problem is that's not how capitalism works. That's not how the market works. Employees protesting, or pushing for legal protections, is a normal part of how the market is supposed to constantly readjust its parameters. Joining a union or protesting is part of how you exercise your choice in a capitalistic society to try and make it work for your needs (with varying degrees of effectiveness) - just like leaving your job and finding another is.

Like, if anybody who ever complains about overtime or work hours is a lazy whiner, are we presuming that the 40 hour work week or the weekend is the gold standard? Because 120 years ago, people were yelling, you god damn lazy ass socialists, nothing wrong with working 80 hours a week 7 days a week, that's what the kids do in the mines! 40hr weeks and weekend came about because of widespread action by employees.

Does that mean every employee complaint is valid, or that we should have less and less work hours? No, that's obvious logical dumbfuckery. It just means that dismissing every kind of complaint by saying "it's capitalism bruh you work as much as you're told to work and if you dont like it leave" is, well, not even good capitalism. I mean, if you personally are a rich ass dude and you own 80 sweatshops, OK, it's in your personal interest to make that argument. But if you ain't that and you're bluffing to other people on an internet forum how you work 80 hours a week, that's sort of like bragging that you paid $500 more for your dildo than the next person.

 

[Lambach]

The point of discussion, initially was whether these people deserve to complain.

I still maintain that game devs working at world-renowned billion-dollar megacorps in first world countries do not deserve to complain, period.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

There's a gaping logical fallacy, which is that whatever rules currently exist (or whatever rules set out by an employer) is considered the gold standard, and if you complain, you just can't with capitalism.

Where did you ever get the idea that we told them not to protest their situation?
We told them to quit, what do you think that is? Why do you people think that employers will care whatsoever until people refuse to work for them?

Here's your gaping logical fallacy:
You think someone else will fix all of your problems rather than taking responsibility and doing something about your situation. This is why I call them overpaid crybabies, and this is why you all come off as whiny babies with no solution for their problems.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

...so, you don't?

Good job moving from "what crybabies, they are not suffering" to "now gimme solution to the problem otherwise stfu"

The point of discussion, initially was whether these people deserve to complain. Which you and others insist that they are not. Now you are moving the goalpost into "bo hoo what have you done huh? HUH HUH HUH? Hah losers"

Clap. Done like a true conservtard chad.

Virtue signaling on twitter isn't a solution though. I thought you guys had a solution prepared, I want to help the needy.

No, but those devs complaining to make a movement os sort? Or making controversies so that it garners the attention of policymakers? Guess what, they are! Albeit a very minor one! It works in my country and presumably many others that such social media controversy will result in actual movement to pressure policy makers.

Which is why CDPR iswas great. Game developers are the single whiniest group of people on the planet, the only way to actually get results out of them is to stop treating them like rational human beings.

Nah they are just whiny. Do like unckle rusty do! Treat them like the garbage they are! And anybody that symphatizes with those people are virtue signalling! We should bury them and get back to sucking our company cocks! That's what chads do!

 

[Lacrymas]

And we told you they can't quit for various reasons, or they would've done it already. This is going in circles and the goal posts are continuously moved until we are back to square 1. Maybe I should stop involving myself in these conversations.

 

[Lambach]

We told them to quit, what do you think that is?

Hold your horses there, cowboy, employees can't just "quit", what do you think this, a post-feudal society? Oh, wait, it is a post-feudal society? But wait, if they quit their current job where they make 120k a year, they'll have to find another job where they could potentially only make 110k a year (at half the required hours)! Ha-ha, bet you didn't think of that, didya?

I'm such a smart, moral person.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

And we told you they can't quit for various reasons, or they would've done it already. This is going in circles and the goal posts are continuously moved until we are back to square 1. Maybe I should stop involving myself with these conversations.

If they can't quit then clearly it's not that bad.
I miss when leftists weren't a bunch of fucking whiny children and had actual mass strikes and walkouts. Bunch of fucking pussies.

 

[Lacrymas]

If they can't quit then clearly it's not that bad.

If you can't escape slavery, it's obviously not that bad!

 

[Tigranes]

Of course employees can quit. They can also join a union, or form one. They can also read self-help books to try and get better at negotiating. They could use social media to raise massive public pressure. (That works in a few situations, it doesn't in many.) There are a variety of things people can try to improve their situation.

In a healthy capitalist system, people will have a variety of such tools with a realistic chance of success - and so will the employers and other stakeholders. When employees have so much power that employers can't do shit, or vice versa, then the system does not work well. If we had a situation where employees can demand ridiculously high pay and employers are always begging for labour and getting shafted, we wouldn't say "if you don't like it just quit" - we would say, did the balance we're supposed to have in the market get fucked up?

If someone isn't even trying any of that shit and just sits there complaining, yeah, whatever, not much sympathy. If they are trying, then fine, they are acting in their own interests and have dignity. Doesn't mean the onus is on them to present some magical "solution" that fixes everything in one go. After all, whether your effort to quit and find better conditions, or to win better conditions at your current job, depends a lot on larger conditions - market, legal, etc.

 

[pomenitul]

If they can't quit then clearly it's not that bad.

 

[Lambach]

If you can't escape slavery, it's obviously not that bad!

"Slavery is the same as competing on the job market"

You are literally brain-dead, holy shit.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Here's your gaping logical fallacy:
You think someone else will fix all of your problems rather than taking responsibility and doing something about your situation. This is why I call them overpaid crybabies, and this is why you all come off as whiny babies with no solution for their problems.

Let me give you a check here. Resigning is not a solution to a systemic problem. There are no lack of [insert job here] to replace you.

Hold your horses there, cowboy, employees can't just "quit", what do you think this, a post-feudal society? Oh, wait, it is a post-feudal society? But wait, if they quit their current job where they make 120k a year, they'll have to find another job for 110k a year (at half the required hours)! Ha-ha, bet you didn't think of that, didya?

I'm such a smart, moral person.

Do you think they are idiots? This is the issue, you assume that they haven't done anything besides complaining on Twitter. You think they just sit there and complain.

From my experience, these people are applying for new jobs and are following the due process while complaining. If they get an acceptable job offer they would already GTFO. This is the reason that CD Project Red has infamously high turn-over rate during TW3 development which causs controversies I think 2 - 3 years ago?

I miss when leftists weren't a bunch of fucking whiny children and had actual mass strikes and walkouts. Bunch of fucking pussies.

You know that this no longer works, right? Here let me lay it down to you: there is no lack of people who want their job, regardless how shitty it is due to competitive job market.

 

[Lacrymas]

"Slavery is the same as competing on the job market"

You are literally brain-dead, holy shit.

Mmm, no, the context is different.

 

[conan_edw]

Why isn't this in the Gaming Drama

 

[Lacrymas]

Let me give you a check here. Resigning is not a solution to a systemic problem. There are no lack of [insert job here] to replace you.

Here's the thing with that. We are talking on completely different levels here. We are trying to explain how and why the system is the way it is, while they are on a "we shouldn't care about this" wave. The flow of the talking seems similar at a glance, but those are actually incompatible and different topics altogether. This conversation just doesn't work.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I still maintain that game devs working at world-renowned billion-dollar megacorps in first world countries do not deserve to complain, period.

While I disagree with this, this is what is "acceptable" rusty_shackleford . He clearly stands his ground instead of moving the goalpost. What you are doing right now keeping your position while sarcastically trying to move the goalpost inti "what solution do you have now HUH HUH HUH?"

 

[rusty_shackleford]

My position has always been that game developers should be chained to their desks and fed dogfood. 99% of games are trash and they deserve it.

 

[Lambach]

Do you think they are idiots?

Unequivocally. After all, they voluntarily chose to work in companies which have had a reputation of sucking souls out of their employees for years. All of this is out in public, all of this is well known and has been for god-knows-how-many years already. If despite all of this you still chose to participate in that shitshow, yeah, you're a goddamn idiot.

Look, nigger, we're not talking about some working class stiff who has to take whatever is offered to feed his/her family. We're talking about people who have plenty of alternative options, yet they willingly, knowingly chose the worst one. So fuck every single one of them.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

My position has always been that game developers should be chained to their desks and fed dogfood. 99% of games are trash and they deserve it.

Then stop trying to sarcastically move the goalpost of the discussion and ad-hominem people

Look, nigger, we're not talking about some working class stiff who has to take whatever is offered to feed his/her family. We're talking about people who have plenty of alternative options, yet they willingly, knowingly chose the worst one. So fuck every single one of them.

This is the issue. As Lacyrmas said, your and my approach to this issue is different. The fact that they can apply for other jobs (which I am sure they do after they get a dose of realities in their current job) doesn't mean that their system is shitty and needs changing. The fact that they are currently fighting to get out of the condition doesn't mean they may not complain and try to internally change where they are working now.

And you assume that all people who complained are the "WOHOOO I AM GONNA BE GAME DEVS OR STARVE". In reality a lot of them probably just have the skillsets (progremmer, 3D artists, etc) who happen to apply to various job, see a contract for salaried job in a big company and take it while hoping for the best. While it might be a mistake of the past to do so by not doing due research the fact remains that the company is shit and having shitty working condition.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

the beatings will continue until morale improves