From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Kruno]

For anyone wanting to test weapons out:

Go to Windmill Village (Atlas Plateau)
Aggro (don't kill) everyone
Round them all up
Fight a bunch of angry old women

Basically I am finding a lot of micro details even between weapon types. Things like hit boxes, slight speed variations from when you swing and move sets. It is a lot of fun trying to find the best weapon. So far Gargoyle Greatsword, Claymore, and Zweihander, and the big red hammer are top contenders for S-class weapons.

 

[Seigneur Locklear]

J_C What's up butthurt fag? Are you trying to imply this isn't an asset reuse: The Game on the scale never seen hitherto? That it isn't a mostly empty, copy-pasted, repetitive slog in a dated engine? Hell, Miyazaki is even literally telling the same story in the same way for the fifth time now, despite having the fat hack by his side.

 

[Kruno]

Look at my character now:

I fight with fashion on my side!
BTW: Any solution to the shitty HDR PrtSc?

 

[cvv]

So I have to say this, people ITT seem to be missing the point of an open world design.

"It's too big, too empty, no stretched out". Yeah, duh.

Open world isn't gonna give you the kind of intricate verticality and tightness of content we all love in DS games. It's not a contribution to gameplay. it's supposed to enhance immershun and feelz. You stand on a cliff, see all the enticing places, the gloomy marshes below you, that huge-ass tower in the distance and is that a cave entrance across the chasm? Oh, there's a dragon sleeping in the marshes, imma better give him a wide berth for now.

In an open-world game you actually feel you exist in a world, as opposed to a gamey, artificial construct. If you don't care or can't appreciate this, it doesn't mean open-world games are durr baad, they just aren't for you.

I for one jizzed through eight pairs of pants so far over the exploration in this game and I'm planning to soil more, much more. I adored Dragon's Dogma precisely for this combo of open-world and soulsy combat but this is even better. My dream game.

 

[Shrimp]

I for one jizzed through eight pairs of pants so far over the exploration in this game and I'm planning to soil more, much more. I adored Dragon's Dogma precisely for this combo of open-world and soulsy combat but this is even better. My dream game.

That's alright, I'm sure they'll announce Dragon's Dogma 2 any moment now.

 

[Wunderbar]

In an open-world game you actually feel you exist in a world, as opposed to a gamey, artificial construct. If you don't care or can't appreciate this, it doesn't mean open-world games are durr baad, they just aren't for you.

I don't know what are you talking about, Fromsoft failed (or to be fair, didn't even try) to make a believable world. It's gamey as fuck, even more so than their previous games.

 

[Jasede]

I'm on the fence. I hate open world games. I can't stand Skyrim or Breath of the Wild.

A friend who is usually decent in his taste wrote this, when I asked why he uninstalled: ((comments by me in echoes))

I'm a Dark Souls veteran ((I introduced him to the series a year ago...)) and I can say this… the game is beautiful, and the zones are amazing. THIS IS NOT A BAD GAME itself! Even the bosses are cool. The problem is, I am always unsure where I am supposed to go next. And I hate the default answers I get when I told people about this… if a game is annoying to figure out it becomes not fun very quickly.

Don’t bother telling me that the game DOES tells me where to go, or that I need handholding. I played ALL dark souls games, sekiro and bloodborne. I FUCKING ASSURE you, none of these games held my hand, and I still loved them. I don’t need handholding; I need what I’m doing to mean something! I DON’T need an arrow telling me where to go, I need it to have a point! Elden ring is vague as HELL about where I should check, and this means I am constantly feeling lost and purposeless. This has to do with what an open world is… Only 20% of the game is actually the main line of content, but the other 80% is NOT luxury bonus content, it is ACTUALLY where the fun is at for this kind of game, but its HORRIBLY boring to get around. The result? I am always lost, I don't know how to find new weapons, and rarely stumble upon them. This makes trying new build incredibly difficult. I feel like 90% of my gameplay is just running around on my horse looking for something ((sounds concerning)) and the other 10% is actually doing something (fighting a mini boss/boss of a small zone). That is one of the major features about level design that new developers need to learn. Good design leads you automatically and psychologically to the main destination. Even puzzles have to provide a degree of 'push in the right direction' or it's no fun, some people never do figure it out and just quit the game.

And I HATE the feeling of both being lost and leaving shit behind! I take the game slow. I look down over every cliff. I try to pay attention to my surroundings, looking for places to go. But I am always aimlessly wandering. I am NOT the kind of person who plays games to feel like that! It’s not fun, it’s not mysterious, and it’s a huge waste of my time. All this game gave me was a vague goal, with boring lore and hardly any sense of accomplishment, NOT AT ALL what dark souls did. THIS is what I mean when I say I feel the game doesn't have enough direction. Not because “the game doesn’t –tell– me” exactly, it DOES tell me for the main line, but the rest is scattered and boring to find! This is honestly one of the least fun souls games I've ever played. Yes, it's pretty. Yes, the combat CAN be fun but this game is designed to be so god damn intentionally frustrating. Eden Ring definitely suffers from an inability to easily show what options the player has. It’s a lot of “did I do this?” And “is this something I can do?” And “did I miss something in this area or am I wasting my time looking for nothing?”

To me, this game is a frustrating nightmare, and not because its hard (I like that), but worse, because its boring. The grace system leads you towards a main boss, but that’s NOT what you should even do to have fun, so then what? Wander for hours till you get a grasp while everyone tells you to do it another way? And if there's no story, I tune out and don't enjoy game anymore. I'm a story guy and usually, too much openness gets in the way of that.

How would you respond? This has made me hesitate about the game. I really really really don't like open world games.

 

[cvv]

In an open-world game you actually feel you exist in a world, as opposed to a gamey, artificial construct. If you don't care or can't appreciate this, it doesn't mean open-world games are durr baad, they just aren't for you.

It's gamey as fuck, even more so than their previous games.

Yeah, no.

 

[Shrimp]

In an open-world game you actually feel you exist in a world, as opposed to a gamey, artificial construct. If you don't care or can't appreciate this, it doesn't mean open-world games are durr baad, they just aren't for you.

I don't know what are you talking about, Fromsoft failed (or to be fair, didn't even try) to make a believable world. It's gamey as fuck, even more so than their previous games.

Would you have preferred if every region in the game looked similar to Limgrave due to their proximity?
The wide variety in locales is one of the best parts of exploration in this game. Making the switch to actual fantastic fantasy landscapes instead of having almost the entire game consist of travelling between two cities inhabited by undead was a good move.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'm on the fence. I hate open world games. I can't stand Skyrim or Breath of the Wild.

A friend who is usually decent in his taste wrote this, when I asked why he uninstalled: ((comments by me in echoes))

I'm a Dark Souls veteran ((I introduced him to the series a year ago...)) and I can say this… the game is beautiful, and the zones are amazing. THIS IS NOT A BAD GAME itself! Even the bosses are cool. The problem is, I am always unsure where I am supposed to go next. And I hate the default answers I get when I told people about this… if a game is annoying to figure out it becomes not fun very quickly.

Don’t bother telling me that the game DOES tells me where to go, or that I need handholding. I played ALL dark souls games, sekiro and bloodborne. I FUCKING ASSURE you, none of these games held my hand, and I still loved them. I don’t need handholding; I need what I’m doing to mean something! I DON’T need an arrow telling me where to go, I need it to have a point! Elden ring is vague as HELL about where I should check, and this means I am constantly feeling lost and purposeless. This has to do with what an open world is… Only 20% of the game is actually the main line of content, but the other 80% is NOT luxury bonus content, it is ACTUALLY where the fun is at for this kind of game, but its HORRIBLY boring to get around. The result? I am always lost, I don't know how to find new weapons, and rarely stumble upon them. This makes trying new build incredibly difficult. I feel like 90% of my gameplay is just running around on my horse looking for something ((sounds concerning)) and the other 10% is actually doing something (fighting a mini boss/boss of a small zone). That is one of the major features about level design that new developers need to learn. Good design leads you automatically and psychologically to the main destination. Even puzzles have to provide a degree of 'push in the right direction' or it's no fun, some people never do figure it out and just quit the game.

And I HATE the feeling of both being lost and leaving shit behind! I take the game slow. I look down over every cliff. I try to pay attention to my surroundings, looking for places to go. But I am always aimlessly wandering. I am NOT the kind of person who plays games to feel like that! It’s not fun, it’s not mysterious, and it’s a huge waste of my time. All this game gave me was a vague goal, with boring lore and hardly any sense of accomplishment, NOT AT ALL what dark souls did. THIS is what I mean when I say I feel the game doesn't have enough direction. Not because “the game doesn’t –tell– me” exactly, it DOES tell me for the main line, but the rest is scattered and boring to find! This is honestly one of the least fun souls games I've ever played. Yes, it's pretty. Yes, the combat CAN be fun but this game is designed to be so god damn intentionally frustrating. Eden Ring definitely suffers from an inability to easily show what options the player has. It’s a lot of “did I do this?” And “is this something I can do?” And “did I miss something in this area or am I wasting my time looking for nothing?”

To me, this game is a frustrating nightmare, and not because its hard (I like that), but worse, because its boring. The grace system leads you towards a main boss, but that’s NOT what you should even do to have fun, so then what? Wander for hours till you get a grasp while everyone tells you to do it another way? And if there's no story, I tune out and don't enjoy game anymore. I'm a story guy and usually, too much openness gets in the way of that.

How would you respond? This has made me hesitate about the game. I really really really don't like open world games.

First you go where you want to then you go where you can.

 

[Shrimp]

I'm on the fence. I hate open world games. I can't stand Skyrim or Breath of the Wild.

A friend who is usually decent in his taste wrote this, when I asked why he uninstalled: ((comments by me in echoes))

I'm a Dark Souls veteran ((I introduced him to the series a year ago...)) and I can say this… the game is beautiful, and the zones are amazing. THIS IS NOT A BAD GAME itself! Even the bosses are cool. The problem is, I am always unsure where I am supposed to go next. And I hate the default answers I get when I told people about this… if a game is annoying to figure out it becomes not fun very quickly.

Don’t bother telling me that the game DOES tells me where to go, or that I need handholding. I played ALL dark souls games, sekiro and bloodborne. I FUCKING ASSURE you, none of these games held my hand, and I still loved them. I don’t need handholding; I need what I’m doing to mean something! I DON’T need an arrow telling me where to go, I need it to have a point! Elden ring is vague as HELL about where I should check, and this means I am constantly feeling lost and purposeless. This has to do with what an open world is… Only 20% of the game is actually the main line of content, but the other 80% is NOT luxury bonus content, it is ACTUALLY where the fun is at for this kind of game, but its HORRIBLY boring to get around. The result? I am always lost, I don't know how to find new weapons, and rarely stumble upon them. This makes trying new build incredibly difficult. I feel like 90% of my gameplay is just running around on my horse looking for something ((sounds concerning)) and the other 10% is actually doing something (fighting a mini boss/boss of a small zone). That is one of the major features about level design that new developers need to learn. Good design leads you automatically and psychologically to the main destination. Even puzzles have to provide a degree of 'push in the right direction' or it's no fun, some people never do figure it out and just quit the game.

And I HATE the feeling of both being lost and leaving shit behind! I take the game slow. I look down over every cliff. I try to pay attention to my surroundings, looking for places to go. But I am always aimlessly wandering. I am NOT the kind of person who plays games to feel like that! It’s not fun, it’s not mysterious, and it’s a huge waste of my time. All this game gave me was a vague goal, with boring lore and hardly any sense of accomplishment, NOT AT ALL what dark souls did. THIS is what I mean when I say I feel the game doesn't have enough direction. Not because “the game doesn’t –tell– me” exactly, it DOES tell me for the main line, but the rest is scattered and boring to find! This is honestly one of the least fun souls games I've ever played. Yes, it's pretty. Yes, the combat CAN be fun but this game is designed to be so god damn intentionally frustrating. Eden Ring definitely suffers from an inability to easily show what options the player has. It’s a lot of “did I do this?” And “is this something I can do?” And “did I miss something in this area or am I wasting my time looking for nothing?”

To me, this game is a frustrating nightmare, and not because its hard (I like that), but worse, because its boring. The grace system leads you towards a main boss, but that’s NOT what you should even do to have fun, so then what? Wander for hours till you get a grasp while everyone tells you to do it another way? And if there's no story, I tune out and don't enjoy game anymore. I'm a story guy and usually, too much openness gets in the way of that.

How would you respond? This has made me hesitate about the game. I really really really don't like open world games.

Complaints about weapon and upgrade material scarcity are genuine. I feel like the game sort of expects you to run some sort of hybrid build just because otherwise you won't have any use for a large part of the loot you find.
How much you intend to actually run around and explore is ultimately up to the individual player, but it's definitely where a lot of the game's content lies. I think there's only been one instance where I felt truly aimless while being unsure of where I was meant to go. This led to me just searching around in the areas I had unlocked and culminate with me actually having to compile a list of areas I had to visit, bosses I could return to and fight later on, NPC questlines I could pursue etc.
There is genuinely a lot of stuff hidden off the beaten path if you want to go look for it, but if you don't enjoy the actual process of looking then I can see why you'd dislike it. That being said:

And if there's no story, I tune out and don't enjoy game anymore. I'm a story guy and usually, too much openness gets in the way of that.

What sort of game does your friend actually think he is playing?

 

[Wunderbar]

In an open-world game you actually feel you exist in a world, as opposed to a gamey, artificial construct. If you don't care or can't appreciate this, it doesn't mean open-world games are durr baad, they just aren't for you.

I don't know what are you talking about, Fromsoft failed (or to be fair, didn't even try) to make a believable world. It's gamey as fuck, even more so than their previous games.

Would you have preferred if every region in the game looked similar to Limgrave due to their proximity?
The wide variety in locales is one of the best parts of exploration in this game. Making the switch to actual fantastic fantasy landscapes instead of having almost the entire game consist of travelling between two cities inhabited by undead was a good move.

I'm not ragging on variety, I'm just saying that the game world is not really believable. Demon's Souls was believable, Sekiro was too to an extent.

Elden Ring's world is gamey. There are no buildings or settlements, where do people used to live? What did they eat? Why are the mini-dungeons and mines spread around so evenly? Why are there no roads leading to mine entrances? If the game's lore is brand new and there is no Undead curse, then why are all of the soldiers and knights mindlessly attacking you (even if you are supposed to be their ally, like in Castle Morne)? All of the legacy dungeons also look very gamey. Don't get me wrong, they are great from the gameplay focus, but that's the point - From intentionally didn't give a shit about making them immersive or lived in.

There are even jumping pads ffs.

 

[HumanTotemPole]

I'm on the fence. I hate open world games. I can't stand Skyrim or Breath of the Wild.

A friend who is usually decent in his taste wrote this, when I asked why he uninstalled: ((comments by me in echoes))

I'm a Dark Souls veteran ((I introduced him to the series a year ago...)) and I can say this… the game is beautiful, and the zones are amazing. THIS IS NOT A BAD GAME itself! Even the bosses are cool. The problem is, I am always unsure where I am supposed to go next. And I hate the default answers I get when I told people about this… if a game is annoying to figure out it becomes not fun very quickly.

Don’t bother telling me that the game DOES tells me where to go, or that I need handholding. I played ALL dark souls games, sekiro and bloodborne. I FUCKING ASSURE you, none of these games held my hand, and I still loved them. I don’t need handholding; I need what I’m doing to mean something! I DON’T need an arrow telling me where to go, I need it to have a point! Elden ring is vague as HELL about where I should check, and this means I am constantly feeling lost and purposeless. This has to do with what an open world is… Only 20% of the game is actually the main line of content, but the other 80% is NOT luxury bonus content, it is ACTUALLY where the fun is at for this kind of game, but its HORRIBLY boring to get around. The result? I am always lost, I don't know how to find new weapons, and rarely stumble upon them. This makes trying new build incredibly difficult. I feel like 90% of my gameplay is just running around on my horse looking for something ((sounds concerning)) and the other 10% is actually doing something (fighting a mini boss/boss of a small zone). That is one of the major features about level design that new developers need to learn. Good design leads you automatically and psychologically to the main destination. Even puzzles have to provide a degree of 'push in the right direction' or it's no fun, some people never do figure it out and just quit the game.

And I HATE the feeling of both being lost and leaving shit behind! I take the game slow. I look down over every cliff. I try to pay attention to my surroundings, looking for places to go. But I am always aimlessly wandering. I am NOT the kind of person who plays games to feel like that! It’s not fun, it’s not mysterious, and it’s a huge waste of my time. All this game gave me was a vague goal, with boring lore and hardly any sense of accomplishment, NOT AT ALL what dark souls did. THIS is what I mean when I say I feel the game doesn't have enough direction. Not because “the game doesn’t –tell– me” exactly, it DOES tell me for the main line, but the rest is scattered and boring to find! This is honestly one of the least fun souls games I've ever played. Yes, it's pretty. Yes, the combat CAN be fun but this game is designed to be so god damn intentionally frustrating. Eden Ring definitely suffers from an inability to easily show what options the player has. It’s a lot of “did I do this?” And “is this something I can do?” And “did I miss something in this area or am I wasting my time looking for nothing?”

To me, this game is a frustrating nightmare, and not because its hard (I like that), but worse, because its boring. The grace system leads you towards a main boss, but that’s NOT what you should even do to have fun, so then what? Wander for hours till you get a grasp while everyone tells you to do it another way? And if there's no story, I tune out and don't enjoy game anymore. I'm a story guy and usually, too much openness gets in the way of that.

How would you respond? This has made me hesitate about the game. I really really really don't like open world games.

Your friend makes some astute observations. The game progress route certainly isn't as intuitive as previous souls games. But I wouldn't let it put you off playing this. It really is very good.

I think a lot of frustrations are due to the fact that the game is very large, very new and that people are playing it blind. We're all still figuring out where everything is, hence the burnout because the map is huge. The wikis are nowhere near complete either so you can't easily look up where to go for a specfiic item or what side dungeon has the bell you want etc.

 

[Seigneur Locklear]

I'm not ragging on variety, I'm just saying that the game world is not really believable. Demon's Souls was believable, Sekiro was too to an extent.

Elden Ring's world is gamey. There are no buildings or settlements, where do people used to live? What did they eat? Why are the mini-dungeons and mines spread around so evenly? Why are there no roads leading to mine entrances? If the game's lore is brand new and there is no Undead curse, then why are all of the soldiers and knights mindlessly attacking you (even if you are supposed to be their ally, like in Castle Morne)? All of the legacy dungeons also look very gamey. Don't get me wrong, they are great from the gameplay focus, but that's the point - From intentionally didn't give a shit about making them immersive or lived in.

There are even jumping pads ffs.

This summarizes it pretty nicely. Open world is not the problem, it's the non-immersive, formulaic and ubishit approach they took towards realizing it.

 

[Falksi]

So I have to say this, people ITT seem to be missing the point of an open world design.

"It's too big, too empty, no stretched out". Yeah, duh.

Open world isn't gonna give you the kind of intricate verticality and tightness of content we all love in DS games. It's not a contribution to gameplay. it's supposed to enhance immershun and feelz. You stand on a cliff, see all the enticing places, the gloomy marshes below you, that huge-ass tower in the distance and is that a cave entrance across the chasm? Oh, there's a dragon sleeping in the marshes, imma better give him a wide berth for now.

In an open-world game you actually feel you exist in a world, as opposed to a gamey, artificial construct. If you don't care or can't appreciate this, it doesn't mean open-world games are durr baad, they just aren't for you.

I for one jizzed through eight pairs of pants so far over the exploration in this game and I'm planning to soil more, much more. I adored Dragon's Dogma precisely for this combo of open-world and soulsy combat but this is even better. My dream game.

So basically they've gone and ruined the Dark Souls formula, by copying the retarded Open World poison that Skyrim and Witcher 3 used to appease brain dead casuals who are so slow they can go ages without actually having to do anything?

Way to destroy a "franchize".

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'm just saying that the game world is not really believable

Not so much a world as it is an interstice between worlds innit.

 

[Shrimp]

I'm not ragging on variety, I'm just saying that the game world is not really believable. Demon's Souls was believable, Sekiro was too to an extent.

Elden Ring's world is gamey. There are no buildings or settlements, where do people used to live? What did they eat? Why are the mini-dungeons and mines spread around so evenly? Why are there no roads leading to mine entrances? If the game's lore is brand new and there is no Undead curse, then why are all of the soldiers and knights mindlessly attacking you (even if you are supposed to be their ally, like in Castle Morne)? All of the legacy dungeons also look very gamey. Don't get me wrong, they are great from the gameplay focus, but that's the point - From intentionally didn't give a shit about making them immersive or lived in.

There are even jumping pads ffs.

This summarizes it pretty nicely. Open world is not the problem, it's the non-immersive, formulaic and ubishit approach they took towards realizing it.

To me that sounds like it's entirely on you for deliberately approaching it with the intention of looking for things to dislike. Stop trying to think video games are a full-dive VR experience into a real world. If you're going to look for video game elements in a video game then you shouldn't be surprised when you find them, especially in a fantasy game of all things. The game does have actual cities and large settlements that clearly were inhabited at some point. Even if you disregard these the game world still has small villages strewn here and there. The forests have berries and animals to hunt. Is it ever explicitly stated that this is what the villagers ate? No, because it's literally irrelevant. Do you also think the quality of Stormveil Castle is diminished because Godric's introduction cutscene doesn't include him telling you about his tax policy?

 

[Suicidal]

I for one jizzed through eight pairs of pants so far over the exploration in this game and I'm planning to soil more, much more. I adored Dragon's Dogma precisely for this combo of open-world and soulsy combat but this is even better. My dream game.

That's alright, I'm sure they'll announce Dragon's Dogma 2 any moment now.

Surely Dragon's Dogma 2 will come out before World War 3.

 

[Alphard]

I for one jizzed through eight pairs of pants so far over the exploration in this game and I'm planning to soil more, much more. I adored Dragon's Dogma precisely for this combo of open-world and soulsy combat but this is even better. My dream game.

That's alright, I'm sure they'll announce Dragon's Dogma 2 any moment now.

Surely Dragon's Dogma 2 will come out before World War 3.

At this point i just want to see DD2 loading screen before my death . It wil be full of diversity quota customization options to make some androgynus thing, but still ...

 

[Alphard]

Btw i have read the thing about gamey open world and i think the fact that's gamey is a pro ,not a con. If you want to make a real life simulator and believable landscape the result will be surely disappointing from a gameplay perspective. Few urban centers and a majority of landmass without anything .
the complain about scarcity of equipment sounds more concerning. I imagine it's a problem with the vastity of the world so even if they increased the numbers of gear items in game, all got stretched out in this vast world. Not a problem for ng+ and further once you memorized relevant weapon locations but surely in first playthrough can be an issue

 

[Seigneur Locklear]

 

[Cromwell]

he game does have actual cities and large settlements that clearly were inhabited at some point.

some still are, I found a place were all people are mad and of course attack you. You also can get mad because the eye of sauron, at leats it looks like that. But I didnt have enough time looking around because I got mad very very quickly and you also die from itvery quickly.

 

[Curratum]

Where's all the souls and farming spots, bro?

I mean, goddamn, a full set in a merchant inventory is something like 12-15k souls and I'm not spending that shit on fashion, I need it to level up. Killing overworld mobs gives you fuckall and bosses barely give you enough to level up even after killing 2-3 minibosses.

Wish there was a decent farming spot so you can at least grind out the extra souls you need to buy some designer lingerie in this game.

 

[Tacgnol]

Where's all the souls and farming spots, bro?

I mean, goddamn, a full set in a merchant inventory is something like 12-15k souls and I'm not spending that shit on fashion, I need it to level up. Killing overworld mobs gives you fuckall and bosses barely give you enough to level up even after killing 2-3 minibosses.

Wish there was a decent farming spot so you can at least grind out the extra souls you need to buy some designer lingerie in this game.

Probably a bit early for your point in the game, but running and killing everything between two bonfires in Leyndell can easily net 15k souls in a few minutes. Helped give me the edge I needed to defeat Radahn.

Of course to enter Leyndell you have to fight a rather difficult boss.

 

[Cromwell]

Where's all the souls and farming spots, bro?

I mean, goddamn, a full set in a merchant inventory is something like 12-15k souls and I'm not spending that shit on fashion, I need it to level up. Killing overworld mobs gives you fuckall and bosses barely give you enough to level up even after killing 2-3 minibosses.

Wish there was a decent farming spot so you can at least grind out the extra souls you need to buy some designer lingerie in this game.

Limgrave dungeon grace were the sorceress is, run out and kill the two chained trolls quickly that gives you about 2k runes and takes I dont know a minute. If you ported to the beast shrine thing you can run out in the wastes find a grace site and run around killing the black pygmi thinks for just over 1k per head. Thats good enough if youre starting out or if you need to buy something, I havent found anything thats so expensive it cant be farmed quickly by thes emethods. There are probably way better ones later but these two I found and used if I need runes quickly.