From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Hell Swarm]

Yeah but coming from someone who doesn't like the combat system this is all worthless.

If I didn't like the combat system why would I have so many hours in the games? You're just discarding an opinion because you don't like it, not because it's invalid. If you had a son who's really good at football and had potential to go pro but instead he decides to become an amazon warehouse monkey you wouldn't dislike your son for it, but you would be disappointed he left his potential in the gutter and settled for mediocre. Fromsoft has milked a basic system until there's no where to go but stupidity and it sucks that there was so much more they could do and produced basic and uninteresting sequels where Jumping was part of the marketing in a 20 year old series.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Nah i'm still of the opinion the problem is that the system is too complicated for some people to figure out what's actually going on. Whenever you guys actually get into the specifics of the issue you betray where the problem actually lies.

"I shouldn't have to redo a boss over and over to learn it's patterns". The solution to this is to apparently to make the pattern both simple and also to make the fight last five hours so you have time to "learn" what is happening without dying (which apparently is really that different from learning the boss over multiple deaths).

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

The argument isn't about what's "best" it's about whether Souls combat is valid in the first place.

Well in that case just tell 'em to fuck off. Souls combat is legit, but it's not the best in all things. Unless we're talking Dark Souls 2. I might try to make an argument for Dark Souls 2.

 

[Odoryuk]

Souls combat is legit, but it's not the best in all things. Unless we're talking Dark Souls 2. I might try to make an argument for Dark Souls 2.

Do Codexers love Dark Souls 2 so much because they love Turn Based combat systems and Dark Souls 2's battle system is the slowest and clunky?

 

[Silverfish]

We all know wojak posters take it quite seriously.

Yes. We're pretty much the Rembrandts of the modern day.

Fromsoft has milked a basic system until there's no where to go but stupidity and it sucks that there was so much more they could do and produced basic and uninteresting sequels where Jumping was part of the marketing in a 20 year old series.

Isn't it to From's credit that from 2009-2022 they produced 20 years worth of great material?

Do Codexers love Dark Souls 2 so much because they love Turn Based combat systems and Dark Souls 2's battle system is the slowest and clunky?

DS2 is Japanese Piranha Bytes, basically perfect for the Codex.

 

[Hell Swarm]

"I shouldn't have to redo a boss over and over to learn it's patterns". The solution to this is to apparently to make the pattern both simple and also to make the fight last five hours so you have time to "learn" what is happening without dying (which apparently is really that different from learning the boss over multiple deaths).

Unless that's something you've read on Reddit, I've never seen that opinion any where from any one I would listen to. The issue isn't having to redo bosses, it's that bosses do unfair things now because the wheels are falling off the kart and From won't change anything to fix the actual issues.

Enemies being able to attack through terrain is a big problem.
Enemies can be leashed and repeatedly hit as they turn away because aggro zones are so limited
Bosses now have more obscure timed attacks then legit swings and it's got so extreme you now have them floating in the air to hold a jump attack to roll catch. Bosses like Maliketh and Godrey are both extremely difficult in phase 2 and having to repeat phase 1 over and over to get there only to find out they hold a move then 1 shot you feels unfair in ways that previous difficult bosses did not.
Almost every boss has a phase 2 that has longer and more complex moves and you have to repeatedly go through phase 1 to get it, meaning every gotcha requires a full boss fight to die to it.
Because of a 2 phase boss fight, bosses are now made increasingly complex in ways the player character's move set struggles to keep up with. And in a lot of cases the camera cannot handle
The camera breaks lock on during boss fights when nothing else is in the room but you and the boss.
The camera doesn't zoom out for larger enemies so your epic dragon fights involve a foot, a knee and a ball sack while you flail at them.

Isn't it to From's credit that from 2009-2022 they produced 20 years worth of great material?

Great material after Dark souls 2 is debateable. And it's not that From is strong or good at their job, it's that everyone else shit the bed so hard they win by by having barely functional games fans can fix the holes in.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

"I shouldn't have to redo a boss over and over to learn it's patterns". The solution to this is to apparently to make the pattern both simple

The solution is to make a better combat system kek

Though simpler patterns aren't a bad thing - as far gameplay design goes, its better to have to multiple simple patterns that neatly build into each other, than it is to have few but overly complicated patterns

Do Codexers love Dark Souls 2 so much because they love Turn Based combat systems and Dark Souls 2's battle system is the slowest and clunky?

I would say its because DS2 is the best one mechanically

 

[Lyric Suite]

Yeah but that's the thing. I don't see where the "unfairness" is. The only thing i found "unfair" in the entirety of Elden Ring was Malenia's Waterfowl attack. It's the ONLY time i was ever forced to look at a guide in a FromSoft game.

Everything else i was able to cope with just fine. Shit like "obscure timed attacks" for me just means: i didn't get it.

 

[Silverfish]

bosses are now made increasingly complex in ways the player character's move set struggles to keep up with.

Do Mimic Tear / Moonveil count as parts of the character's moveset?

 

[Hell Swarm]

Everything else i was able to cope with just fine. Shit like "obscure timed attacks" for me just means: i didn't get it.

If I beat the game then I got it. You might enjoy bosses reading your inputs and holding attacks to punish you for not standing idle for 5 seconds. Others do not. You also ignore that Maliketh can jump around the arena, break your camera lock on and then shoot a ranged attack at you that passes through terrain and deletes a chunk of your health bar. Just because you don't need a guide doesn't mean it's fair for game breaking problems to exist. How many times did you stand behind a pillar and Maliketh dashed/swung right through it and hit you on the other side because enemies ignore terrain? It happened to me several times and I don't think any one should find that acceptable. It's not Tough but fair, it's broken game mechanics.

Do Mimic Tear / Moonveil count as parts of the character's moveset?

Yes, but are also a sign of the problem. The increased shounen anime style of the games has pushed the feel of the games past breaking point. If a player needs an exact clone of themselves and both are firing lasers from their dick while Goku spirit bombs the boss there is a serious problem with your combat system. It becomes less about player skill and more about broken builds. If you don't enjoy summoning an army and using weapon arts you're in for a seriously rough time from basically the capital on wards.

 

[Odoryuk]

If a player needs an exact clone of themselves and both are firing lasers from their dick while Goku spirit bombs the boss there is a serious problem with your combat system.

All of this is not necessary to beat any of the bosses in Elden Ring. People killed Malenia without leveling up, or without using any weapons, and some years later someone will beat her without upgrading and without using any weapons at all, it's all possible. There's no problem with their combat systems, it's very versatile. You can go on about roll spam and how it is impossible to beat the game otherwise, but their games were bitten with fat rolling characters just fine. You can use whatever the game gives you and it will affect your experience. If you're not that skillful, you can use Mimic Tear and have fun with that. It's fun.

 

[Hell Swarm]

If a player needs an exact clone of themselves and both are firing lasers from their dick while Goku spirit bombs the boss there is a serious problem with your combat system.

All of this is not necessary to beat any of the bosses in Elden Ring. People killed Malenia without leveling up, or without using any weapons, and some years later someone will beat her without upgrading and without using any weapons at all, it's all possible. There's no problem with their combat systems, it's very versatile. You can go on about roll spam and how it is impossible to beat the game otherwise, but their games were bitten with fat rolling characters just fine. You can use whatever the game gives you and it will affect your experience. If you're not that skillful, you can use Mimic Tear and have fun with that. It's fun.

I've done RL1 Elden Ring runs. I still think the system is broken and needs fixing. Being able to throw yourself at the game until it doesn't fuck you doesn't mean it's not wearing a 5 foot dog dildo and coming for you while you sleep. You shouldn't have to dodge a sword phasing through a giant pillar because any one not retarded can understand swords don't phase through pillars.

 

[Odoryuk]

You shouldn't have to dodge a sword phasing through a giant pillar because any one not retarded can understand swords don't phase through pillars.

You should learn that large-ass enemies or enemies with long weaponry can get you and just evade these attacks just in case pretty quick.
I can't see any fix for that, besides removing said attacks, which will decrease the fun factor a lot. You either get non flailing humanoid enemies with small radius of attacks or enemies that play a special animation when hit any wall surface (just like player does, which forces you to be aware of your surrounding and your weapon's moveset), which will be funny as hell (funny, not fun, lure any giant enemy near the wall, they will try to hit you and will bounce of the wall, allowing you to kill them easily)

 

[Hell Swarm]

I can't see any fix for that, besides removing said attacks,

Give enemy weapon collision and improve the AI/movesets so they can't be abused to bounce off walls.

This was needed in Dark souls 1.

 

[Odoryuk]

You shouldn't have to dodge a sword phasing through a giant pillar because any one not retarded can understand swords don't phase through pillars.

You should learn that large-ass enemies or enemies with long weaponry can get you and just evade these attacks just in case pretty quick.
I can't see any fix for that, besides removing said attacks, which will decrease the fun factor a lot. You either get non flailing humanoid enemies with small radius of attacks or enemies that play a special animation when hit any wall surface (just like player does, which forces you to be aware of your surrounding and your weapon's moveset), which will be funny as hell (funny, not fun, lure any giant enemy near the wall, they will try to hit you and will bounce of the wall, allowing you to kill them easily)

Wait, I came up with an algorythm. So, instead of using large capsules for hitboxes, you use tenths if not hundreds of small spheres that act as hitboxes. If any of this hitboxes collide with a terrain or non-character object, you disable them for the rest of the attack animation. So, if the attack goes through a wall a little, the hitboxes on the tip of the sword will be disabled. But, again, this will feel weird when the blade touches your character and doesn't hit even if you're not rolling.

Anyways, FromSoftware, hire this man.

and improve the AI/movesets so they can't be abused to bounce off walls

There's so many situations where this can break, that changing it so some people would stop complaining about penetrating hitboxes is not viable at all.

 

[Damned Registrations]

it's all possible.

It's also possible to jump a car over a huge gap in a bridge by using a ramp. Doesn't mean that's an acceptable way for a bridge to be built.

 

[Odoryuk]

It's also possible to jump a car over a huge gap in a bridge by using a ramp. Doesn't mean that's an acceptable way for a bridge to be built.

Play some Flatout maybe. It's also fun.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Yeah but that's the thing. I don't see where the "unfairness" is. The only thing i found "unfair" in the entirety of Elden Ring was Malenia's Waterfowl attack. It's the ONLY time i was ever forced to look at a guide in a FromSoft game.

Everything else i was able to cope with just fine. Shit like "obscure timed attacks" for me just means: i didn't get it.

There was nothing unfair in the game. You're fighting ghosts.

Souls combat is legit, but it's not the best in all things. Unless we're talking Dark Souls 2. I might try to make an argument for Dark Souls 2.

Do Codexers love Dark Souls 2 so much because they love Turn Based combat systems and Dark Souls 2's battle system is the slowest and clunky?

There have been countless examples of why it's so beloved. It evolutionized the Souls-style combat in the best way and imo, they never got back there. Bloodborne did it's own thing which is fine. Sekiro also but it's the worst of the bunch for being so one-note and having tons of awful forced stealth mechanics. DkS3 stripped away everything good that 2 introduced so fuck that game. Elden Ring brought back some stuff from 2 but it was watered down. 2 remains the best.

 

[Lyric Suite]

If a player needs an exact clone of themselves and both are firing lasers from their dick while Goku spirit bombs the boss there is a serious problem with your combat system.

All of this is not necessary to beat any of the bosses in Elden Ring. People killed Malenia without leveling up, or without using any weapons, and some years later someone will beat her without upgrading and without using any weapons at all, it's all possible. There's no problem with their combat systems, it's very versatile. You can go on about roll spam and how it is impossible to beat the game otherwise, but their games were bitten with fat rolling characters just fine. You can use whatever the game gives you and it will affect your experience. If you're not that skillful, you can use Mimic Tear and have fun with that. It's fun.

There's a guy who beat Malenia with fists only (not fist weapons, literally just the fists). Took him about 3 hours.

 

[Lyric Suite]

If I beat the game then I got it.

So what's the problem. Are the movesets obscure or are they not?

 

[Damned Registrations]

Elden Ring combat is like a 3000 piece puzzle, where all the pieces are white, and there's also an extra 500 pieces that fit 3 neighbours at once just to fuck with you. Because it's possible to finish the puzzle, autists think nothing is wrong with it.

 

[Odoryuk]

There have been countless examples of why it's so beloved.

I only remember people praising its approach to NG+ (a lot of random red phantoms everywhere, the only good thing is the Freja encounter, which actually would made the base NG way better and there's no sense locking it behind NG+, clearly shows their lack of time when redeveloping the game), PvP (I can understand people liking a lot of variations of equipment they can use, even though it's mostly visual stuff and I find DS2's visual style very weak) and DLCs (DLC content is actually very good, I agree here, they made the game way better).

I understand that there was a large backlash when it was released and the game was hated a lot for superficial reasons, but I feel that the recent wave of fanboyism towards DS2 is the same, but with opposite sign. I mean, people are free to select their favorite game, but DS2 fans are really obnoxious online, trying to cling to Elden Ring as if that game owes DS2 its success. DS2 fans have a trauma and it's not healthy.

There's a guy who beat Malenia with fists only (not fist weapons, literally just the fists). Took him about 3 hours.

I remember seeing something like that on Youtube, but that guy levelled up a lot. I have yet to see someone beating her SL1 without upgrading anything and using only bare fists (though I never really searched for such content, maybe it had been done already).

Elden Ring combat is like a 3000 piece puzzle, where all the pieces are white, and there's also an extra 500 pieces that fit 3 neighbours at once just to fuck with you. Because it's possible to finish the puzzle, autists think nothing is wrong with it.

It is actually the autists who want to have a perfect puzzle. Normal people just play the game and have fun.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Meh, i've never personally been a fan of action games because i never liked doing things by rote. All that shit about having to memorize combos etc always gave me ADHD.

I'm addicted to FromSoft combat precisely because i have to figure things out. Bruising my face against a boss over and over doesn't bother me because my mind is engaged in trying to understand what's going on, and the more "obscure" the better to be honest.

One of my favored bosses in Sekiro was Headless precisely because i couldn't understand wtf was going on lmao. It's only on the third fight i finally managed to master him:



I just love this shit. I even managed to figure out his ass grabbing move which i was pretty proud of.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

There have been countless examples of why it's so beloved.

I only remember people praising its approach to NG+ (a lot of random red phantoms everywhere, the only good thing is the Freja encounter, which actually would made the base NG way better and there's no sense locking it behind NG+, clearly shows their lack of time when redeveloping the game), PvP (I can understand people liking a lot of variations of equipment they can use, even though it's mostly visual stuff and I find DS2's visual style very weak) and DLCs (DLC content is actually very good, I agree here, they made the game way better).

I understand that there was a large backlash when it was released and the game was hated a lot for superficial reasons, but I feel that the recent wave of fanboyism towards DS2 is the same, but with opposite sign. I mean, people are free to select their favorite game, but DS2 fans are really obnoxious online, trying to cling to Elden Ring as if that game owes DS2 its success. DS2 fans have a trauma and it's not healthy.

That's a whole lot of words coming out of a tiny turtled penis. If you don't like the GOAT it's fine but don't personally attack it's fans. You may as well dive into a den of Lions, son.

 

[Odoryuk]

That's a whole lot of words coming out of a tiny turtled penis. If you don't like the GOAT it's fine but don't personally attack it's fans. You may as well dive into a den of Lions, son.

That's what I meant, yeah.