From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Raghar]

I remember that combat encounter in DS3 where an enemy uses i-frames against you. That was quite immersion breaking experience. Especially when I tried to use movement and not use parry at all, and rolling at relatively low level. Roll i-frames and slash combo was not enjoyable experience.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I remember that combat encounter in DS3 where an enemy uses i-frames against you. That was quite immersion breaking experience. Especially when I tried to use movement and not use parry at all, and rolling at relatively low level. Roll i-frames and slash combo was not enjoyable experience.

Which one was it? Personally, those kind of curve balls is something i like about FromSoft games, since they prevent you from falling into complacency. As long as the ennoying ones are kept to a minimum. I didn't like magic stuff in Sekiro as much as i liked the traditional deflection stuff but i'm still glad it was there.

 

[Raghar]

It was in Archives somewhere on top level near that big open area with big stairs. IIRC there are two or three NPCs it might be one of them. I think it was Black Hand Kamui. I fought him in close combat when he followed me inside.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Pests are universally hated by many people. The first time you meet them in Selia they are a fucking nightmare with that stupid threads attack that can track you around the known universe and back. And then, when you get close they are all spazzy faggots too. Turns out, all you have to do is whip out a shield, which not incidentally is the best tool for both the threads and for close combat, since those guys are weak to guard counters and have weak posture in general.

Have fun blocking 1 pest threads while the other 3-6 in the room blast you as well. They're hated for more than 1 attack and a shield doesn't stop them running off or their friends blasting you from behind.

It was in Archives somewhere on top level near that big open area with big stairs. IIRC there are two or three NPCs it might be one of them.

Pretty sure all humans with a roll can iframe you.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Pests are universally hated by many people. The first time you meet them in Selia they are a fucking nightmare with that stupid threads attack that can track you around the known universe and back. And then, when you get close they are all spazzy faggots too. Turns out, all you have to do is whip out a shield, which not incidentally is the best tool for both the threads and for close combat, since those guys are weak to guard counters and have weak posture in general.

Have fun blocking 1 pest threads while the other 3-6 in the room blast you as well. They're hated for more than 1 attack and a shield doesn't stop them running off or their friends blasting you from behind.

Taking on more than one enemy is a bad idea no matter the enemy, but if you really must, here's the best way to deal with those things:

 

[Hell Swarm]

Taking on more than one enemy is a bad idea no matter the enemy, but if you really must, here's the best way to deal with those things:

Not really. Easy to take on multiple soldiers or dogs. Pests range attack is fast and hard to dodge so going into a church with 6 of them is a problem.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Yeah multiple dogs, great idea in any FS game

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Parry feels way more ideal than blocking even in DS1, it's just that it was so easy to be awalking tank in DS1 that people feel that's a "valid" way to play. Parry is much more rewarding and less resource intensive.

 

[Hell Swarm]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Easy to take on multiple dogs.

Dude they are annoying enough when they are by themselves lol.

Let's not talk about the blood ones you find in Altus. I'd rather take on multiple Pests than just waltz into those ruins and aggro all the dogs.

 

[Lyric Suite]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

How is that different from taking the time to figure out roll opportunities.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Parry feels way more ideal than blocking even in DS1, it's just that it was so easy to be awalking tank in DS1 that people feel that's a "valid" way to play. Parry is much more rewarding and less resource intensive.

I remember people saying Gwyn was super easy but when i faced him he was quite difficult for me. Had to cheese him by hiding behind obstacles. Turns out, they were saying that because you were meant to parry him.

DS1 also did have a few tricks you could use against bosses. I mean the pendant you can use again Manu is the most obvious one but there were a few things here and there as well. Like Artorias, if your weapon hits hard enough you can stagger him out of his power up animation. That was the only way i could beat him on my medium roll character the first time i played the game.

FromSoft do like to go out of their way to help out the player whenever they feel they reached a threshold where shit would just be frustrating and obnoxious.

 

[Damned Registrations]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

How is that different from taking the time to figure out roll opportunities.

You can practice rolling safely against most enemies by rolling away from them, so if you're too early the attack whiffs anyways. Do that with a parry and you just die.

 

[Lyric Suite]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

How is that different from taking the time to figure out roll opportunities.

You can practice rolling safely against most enemies by rolling away from them

That's nonsense if you are rolling away you are not practicing anything. There is no "safe" way to learn how to roll through a pattern it's trial and error until you figure out what to do. I wanna see somebody try to figure out Godrick or Mogh just by rolling away.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Dude they are annoying enough when they are by themselves lol.

They don't gank you the same way 6 ranged enemies do though.

That's nonsense if you are rolling away you are not practicing anything. There is no "safe" way to learn how to roll through a pattern it's trial and error until you figure out what to do. I wanna see somebody try to figure out Godrick or Mogh just by rolling away.

Rolling away is a viable strategy for avoiding an attack you don't want to deal with. If I can roll away from 9 attacks and roll into 1 I can still beat a boss. If I can parry 1 and have to take hits from the rest I'm going to die. Parrying is much harder than rolling is because the window is much smaller. I can roll through a lot of attacks with a larger window than I can find the actual parry window. Pontive is especially strong in that point because his parry windows quite small but he does such sweeping attacks you can roll through them with easy. A bad roll can still put you in a position not to be hit while a bad parry still takes life off if not gets you the full hit.

You have a very weird way of looking at Souls games. It maybe autism.

 

[Lyric Suite]

You have a very weird way of looking at Souls games. It maybe autism.

I already mentioned in the past the fun part for me in those games is figuring out the patterns and mechanics first and foremost. I find that impulse analogous to my desire to figure out complexity in music and other similar things, hence my attraction to stuff like classical music etc.

Sure, you can cheese bosses (some of them anyway) through hit and run tactics but you aren't really figuring anything out like that. Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

Amusingly, this is how I feel about perfectly memorizing an enemy's patterns. I hate a lot of old SHMUPs for the same reason; it reduces the game to DDR: input the commands in the correct order and timing without the need to improvise.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

Amusingly, this is how I feel about perfectly memorizing an enemy's patterns. I hate a lot of old SHMUPs for the same reason; it reduces the game to DDR: input the commands in the correct order and timing without the need to improvise.

Except there's no improvisation without technique. Hitting notes on a keyboard randomly is not improvisation.

In a game, if you can survive doing that it means the game was so simplistic there was no point in doing it in the first place.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Sure, you can cheese bosses (some of them anyway) through hit and run tactics but you aren't really figuring anything out like that. Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

Learning how to avoid attacks isn't cheesing the boss. It's not cheesing to figure out some dragons have to be run away from.

 

[Damned Registrations]

There's a difference being behaving randomly and behaving according to intuitions and logic. Like, if I see an enemy hold a giant weapon overhead with two hands, I'd be a retard to try block or parry it instead of dodging. Likewise, trying to dodge a wolf or bird instead of just blocking or parrying them. Failing that, internal setting logic is useful, like say, flames tend to linger and punish dodging, while lightning does not, or the enemies with spiky hats overwhelm blocks easily. Of course, this relies on the game actually making sense and being consistent with such things. Elden Ring can't even be assed to have consistent fucking physics, with enemies hovering in mid air to delay the end of a jumping attack.

If the gameplay is reduced to 'wait until he holds his sword over his right shoulder, then hit button X when it's at 60 degrees, swing sword 3 times and then stand still to recover stamina and avoid provoking the dash attack' then I may as well go play Osu!

 

[Lyric Suite]

If the gameplay is reduced to 'wait until he holds his sword over his right shoulder, then hit button X when it's at 60 degrees, swing sword 3 times and then stand still to recover stamina and avoid provoking the dash attack' then I may as well go play Osu!

Well, if we were to talk about "realism", that to me feels much more real than anything you described in your first point.

Not just Asian martial arts but even western boxing requires a great deal of technical expertise. It's not as simple as being able to "react" to the punch as it is happening. A supposed "brute" like Forman had to use an highly technical defense system to beat Joe Frazer:



The way i see it, FromSoft combat is akin to figuring out a technique in a martial art. First, you have to be able to see what is happening, second, you have to figure out a counter and lastly you have to train yourself to be able to perform the counter flawlessly. What you seem to be asking is a combat system that mirrors combat between untrained amateurs where everything can go and there's no rules.

BTW, out of curiosity, which game do you think did combat right under your criteria?

 

[Tse Tse Fly]

Reading Lyric Suite 's posts in this thread is actually more interesting than playing this game Every time I see this thread updated I'm tempted to give ER another chance, but then I realize it will go down like my previous attempts.

 

[Lyric Suite]

This game's size broke even me though it was my fault for trying an SL1 run so close to my first playthrough. Should have given it at least another year lmao.

Gonna be fun once the DLC is out too. I'm actually tempted to skip it's release and post pone playing it once i'm ready to do another full playthrough, probably a few years from now.

 

[Hell Swarm]

The way i see it, FromSoft combat is akin to figuring out a technique in a martial art. First, you have to be able to see what is happening, second, you have to figure out a counter and lastly you have to train yourself to be able to perform the counter flawlessly. What you seem to be asking is a combat system that mirrors combat between untrained amateurs where everything can go and there's no rules.

I'm going to rollbackwards and shoot that faggot in the face. Now where is your God larper man? Video games aren't real world combat. I'm pushing a button to do an animation and that's it. I don't have full control of my pointy stick and even if I did how many souls bosses even care if you hit them? Most creatures react poorly to a spear in the ribs. Almost every souls boss will beat your ass down if you poke at the wrong time. So realism is off the table the moment the game decides realistic damage to weapons isn't happening. I don't care how tough Morgott thinks he is, if I stick a spear through his rib cage he's not doing flippy shit and hitting me with a sledge hammer right after.

 

[Damned Registrations]

BTW, out of curiosity, which game do you think did combat right under your criteria?

Monster Hunter series is probably the best if we're talking about a 3D action game imo. Aside from some janky stuff like the space warping Plesioth, you can generally predict where a monster is going to be at least half a second from now at any given moment, even on your first encounter. When a monster leaps at you, it follows a parabolic arc. When it rears back and lunges forward, it finishes the lunge instead of pausing halfway through for a quarter second to ruin your dodge timing. You can judge the range of a monster by the length of it's limbs and the way it moves in general, whether it's a lumbering beast or an agile predator. When I lose a fight in a MH game, pretty much without exception I feel like it was my fault for not reading the situation or managing my own resources properly. Monsters have a fatigue and rage system as well playing into their behaviour, and the fights are meant to last a long time and give you many chances to learn and adjust, instead of being over in 60 seconds, win or lose.

In an even broader sense, fighting games are what set the bar for action combat. Assuming players of equal skill, the match is about mindgames and reading behaviour, rather than timing or memorization. You're never totally in control, but jump kicking someone in the face when they go for their 3rd sweep kick in a row feels satisfying in a way poking at a golem's ankles after it does attack variant 2B does not.