From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Odoryuk]

This is what i meant when i said i-frames are no longer as much of a crutch as they used to. It's no longer the guaranteed easy way to deal with boss patterns.

What actually changed since Bloodborne/Dark Souls 3? Feels identical to me (you can't just faceroll through attacks in those games as well and mashing rolls only viable if you want to get away from the enemy).

 

[Lyric Suite]

Yeah it's not a new trend but i think with Elden Ring it's starting to get over bearing for some given the amount of stuff they keep carrying over from their previous games. For instance, i feel parry is more something they WANT you do to as opposed to just being a tool that's there for whoever feels brave enough to use it. Some bosses are just begging for it, and are actually harder to deal with without it. Combined with the stance mechanic which rewards aggression, it almost feels like they tried to carry over some stuff from Sekiro into this.

 

[Odoryuk]

For instance, i feel parry is more something they WANT you do to as opposed to just being a tool that's there for whoever feels brave enough to use it

They fixed parries being too easy to land in Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3, and in Elden Ring I thought they would refine parries more after playing the network test and realising that Margit needs multiple parries to get riposted, but I can't even remember any other enemy that requires you to land multiple parries for a critical hit, seems like a missed opportunity.

 

[Lyric Suite]

For instance, i feel parry is more something they WANT you do to as opposed to just being a tool that's there for whoever feels brave enough to use it

They fixed parries being too easy to land in Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3, and in Elden Ring I thought they would refine parries more after playing the network test and realising that Margit needs multiple parries to get riposted, but I can't even remember any other enemy that requires you to land multiple parries for a critical hit, seems like a missed opportunity.

Parry is not just about getting that critical hit, it's a way of stopping combos altoghether.

The most glaring example of this is Morgott, which i mentioned many times already:



This guy is a really good example of what i'm talking about. He has two combos that are very difficult to roll-fu through if you take them head on. However, in both cases there's a "trick". The first combo, the one he does after his rain of knives, can be stopped entirely with a good parry. The game is even giving you an hint. His sword has this visible aura or trail that feels like it's there to grab your eyes since most people would instinctively look at the magic hammer he raises over his shoulder instead.

The second combo, the one he does in the second phase, can be avoided by moving behind him and rolling through it in reverse. He starts by crossing his sword and magic knife and holding there for a split second which gives you the time to move around and behind him.

Of course, Morgott has weak posture which means just smashing him in the head with the biggest clunk of wood or steel you can find is generally the easiest route, which may or may not be a concession for people who can't cope with the spazzy combos but still.

I'm also not sure doing this:



Was easier than doing this:



Granted the Dragonbarrow version had more health but still. All that damn rolling with all those different timings you have to learn. Same with the Crucible Knights, which for me were always a pain in the ass to roll-fu, but again, not so hard with parry etc.

Basically, for me Elden Ring involves understanding the mechanics and knowing when to use what. Rolling is still the predominant tool but the game can become frustrating if you rely on that exclusively.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Doing that blind is a guaranteed way to smash your face against the damaging part of the attack though.

Doing anything blindly is going to get your face smashed in. But many attack's optimal response is to roll into them and hit the boss at the end of the roll. Gold Godrey has loads of those and you're never punished for doing it. There's obviously designed windows with the amount of safety you have after the attack and the range has already been closed so you get to attack in windows you other wise couldn't.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Doing that blind is a guaranteed way to smash your face against the damaging part of the attack though.

Doing anything blindly is going to get your face smashed in. But many attack's optimal response is to roll into them and hit the boss at the end of the roll. Gold Godrey has loads of those and you're never punished for doing it. There's obviously designed windows with the amount of safety you have after the attack and the range has already been closed so you get to attack in windows you other wise couldn't.

Not saying traditional Souls roll-fu was completely phased out either. Gold Godfrey is also just the first phase of the real one you meet later so you have to look at it in the context of the full boss fight, same with Mogh.

Ultimately, Elden Ring isn't about any specific thing it's more of an accumulation of mechanics they inherited from their previous games plus a couple of extra ones they invented for this game specifically. And there's always a logic to it too. Pests are universally hated by many people. The first time you meet them in Selia they are a fucking nightmare with that stupid threads attack that can track you around the known universe and back. And then, when you get close they are all spazzy faggots too. Turns out, all you have to do is whip out a shield, which not incidentally is the best tool for both the threads and for close combat, since those guys are weak to guard counters and have weak posture in general.

Basically, here's a few basic rules you can follow for this game. If the boss or enemy is super spazzy, there's likely a way to just make them stop move. Most excessive example is the Revenant, which you can just obliterate with healing spells and they are so fucking annoying you will likely do just that every time you meet them (hands too have a similar counter which is fire). Revenants aside, in most cases those kind of enemies have weak posture, so target that. If the enemy is a bitch to roll-fu or are unreasonably hardy (Crucible Knight for instance) observe whether they have attacks with long wind ups. Likely, you are meant to parry them. Same for bosses that just appear to be extremely pushy, like the fat Godskin boss (the one you meet on the bridge is a big give away, since they intentionally put you in spot with little room to roll through his stupid fancing sword), or those spear Crystalians. If you are in a situation where you feel a shield would be helpful, make sure to test if you can use guard counters as well, don't limit yourself to blocking and so on like this.

 

[Raghar]

I remember that combat encounter in DS3 where an enemy uses i-frames against you. That was quite immersion breaking experience. Especially when I tried to use movement and not use parry at all, and rolling at relatively low level. Roll i-frames and slash combo was not enjoyable experience.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I remember that combat encounter in DS3 where an enemy uses i-frames against you. That was quite immersion breaking experience. Especially when I tried to use movement and not use parry at all, and rolling at relatively low level. Roll i-frames and slash combo was not enjoyable experience.

Which one was it? Personally, those kind of curve balls is something i like about FromSoft games, since they prevent you from falling into complacency. As long as the ennoying ones are kept to a minimum. I didn't like magic stuff in Sekiro as much as i liked the traditional deflection stuff but i'm still glad it was there.

 

[Raghar]

It was in Archives somewhere on top level near that big open area with big stairs. IIRC there are two or three NPCs it might be one of them. I think it was Black Hand Kamui. I fought him in close combat when he followed me inside.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Pests are universally hated by many people. The first time you meet them in Selia they are a fucking nightmare with that stupid threads attack that can track you around the known universe and back. And then, when you get close they are all spazzy faggots too. Turns out, all you have to do is whip out a shield, which not incidentally is the best tool for both the threads and for close combat, since those guys are weak to guard counters and have weak posture in general.

Have fun blocking 1 pest threads while the other 3-6 in the room blast you as well. They're hated for more than 1 attack and a shield doesn't stop them running off or their friends blasting you from behind.

It was in Archives somewhere on top level near that big open area with big stairs. IIRC there are two or three NPCs it might be one of them.

Pretty sure all humans with a roll can iframe you.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Pests are universally hated by many people. The first time you meet them in Selia they are a fucking nightmare with that stupid threads attack that can track you around the known universe and back. And then, when you get close they are all spazzy faggots too. Turns out, all you have to do is whip out a shield, which not incidentally is the best tool for both the threads and for close combat, since those guys are weak to guard counters and have weak posture in general.

Have fun blocking 1 pest threads while the other 3-6 in the room blast you as well. They're hated for more than 1 attack and a shield doesn't stop them running off or their friends blasting you from behind.

Taking on more than one enemy is a bad idea no matter the enemy, but if you really must, here's the best way to deal with those things:

 

[Hell Swarm]

Taking on more than one enemy is a bad idea no matter the enemy, but if you really must, here's the best way to deal with those things:

Not really. Easy to take on multiple soldiers or dogs. Pests range attack is fast and hard to dodge so going into a church with 6 of them is a problem.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Yeah multiple dogs, great idea in any FS game

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Parry feels way more ideal than blocking even in DS1, it's just that it was so easy to be awalking tank in DS1 that people feel that's a "valid" way to play. Parry is much more rewarding and less resource intensive.

 

[Hell Swarm]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Easy to take on multiple dogs.

Dude they are annoying enough when they are by themselves lol.

Let's not talk about the blood ones you find in Altus. I'd rather take on multiple Pests than just waltz into those ruins and aggro all the dogs.

 

[Lyric Suite]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

How is that different from taking the time to figure out roll opportunities.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Parry feels way more ideal than blocking even in DS1, it's just that it was so easy to be awalking tank in DS1 that people feel that's a "valid" way to play. Parry is much more rewarding and less resource intensive.

I remember people saying Gwyn was super easy but when i faced him he was quite difficult for me. Had to cheese him by hiding behind obstacles. Turns out, they were saying that because you were meant to parry him.

DS1 also did have a few tricks you could use against bosses. I mean the pendant you can use again Manu is the most obvious one but there were a few things here and there as well. Like Artorias, if your weapon hits hard enough you can stagger him out of his power up animation. That was the only way i could beat him on my medium roll character the first time i played the game.

FromSoft do like to go out of their way to help out the player whenever they feel they reached a threshold where shit would just be frustrating and obnoxious.

 

[Damned Registrations]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

How is that different from taking the time to figure out roll opportunities.

You can practice rolling safely against most enemies by rolling away from them, so if you're too early the attack whiffs anyways. Do that with a parry and you just die.

 

[Lyric Suite]

less resource intensive.

If you don't consider your time to be a resource then sure. Other wise you're repeatedly taking hits to figure out parry windows.

How is that different from taking the time to figure out roll opportunities.

You can practice rolling safely against most enemies by rolling away from them

That's nonsense if you are rolling away you are not practicing anything. There is no "safe" way to learn how to roll through a pattern it's trial and error until you figure out what to do. I wanna see somebody try to figure out Godrick or Mogh just by rolling away.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Dude they are annoying enough when they are by themselves lol.

They don't gank you the same way 6 ranged enemies do though.

That's nonsense if you are rolling away you are not practicing anything. There is no "safe" way to learn how to roll through a pattern it's trial and error until you figure out what to do. I wanna see somebody try to figure out Godrick or Mogh just by rolling away.

Rolling away is a viable strategy for avoiding an attack you don't want to deal with. If I can roll away from 9 attacks and roll into 1 I can still beat a boss. If I can parry 1 and have to take hits from the rest I'm going to die. Parrying is much harder than rolling is because the window is much smaller. I can roll through a lot of attacks with a larger window than I can find the actual parry window. Pontive is especially strong in that point because his parry windows quite small but he does such sweeping attacks you can roll through them with easy. A bad roll can still put you in a position not to be hit while a bad parry still takes life off if not gets you the full hit.

You have a very weird way of looking at Souls games. It maybe autism.

 

[Lyric Suite]

You have a very weird way of looking at Souls games. It maybe autism.

I already mentioned in the past the fun part for me in those games is figuring out the patterns and mechanics first and foremost. I find that impulse analogous to my desire to figure out complexity in music and other similar things, hence my attraction to stuff like classical music etc.

Sure, you can cheese bosses (some of them anyway) through hit and run tactics but you aren't really figuring anything out like that. Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

Amusingly, this is how I feel about perfectly memorizing an enemy's patterns. I hate a lot of old SHMUPs for the same reason; it reduces the game to DDR: input the commands in the correct order and timing without the need to improvise.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

Amusingly, this is how I feel about perfectly memorizing an enemy's patterns. I hate a lot of old SHMUPs for the same reason; it reduces the game to DDR: input the commands in the correct order and timing without the need to improvise.

Except there's no improvisation without technique. Hitting notes on a keyboard randomly is not improvisation.

In a game, if you can survive doing that it means the game was so simplistic there was no point in doing it in the first place.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Sure, you can cheese bosses (some of them anyway) through hit and run tactics but you aren't really figuring anything out like that. Whenever i do that i feel like i somehow robbed myself of the fun.

Learning how to avoid attacks isn't cheesing the boss. It's not cheesing to figure out some dragons have to be run away from.