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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

smaug

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Replaying this game because me and my friend are playing co-op. Forgot how terrible this game was.

Open world is just useless filler where just looking at a map and just doing everything by a check off list is more reasonable than trying to explore blindly (not applicable to the actual levels). So many useless mechanics etc etc

I guess I can’t blame them because the souls gameplay formula was already exhausted in the first entry but this Ubisoft world design is so lazy.
 

Hell Swarm

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I guess I can’t blame them because the souls gameplay formula was already exhausted in the first entry but this Ubisoft world design is so lazy.
Sekiro has Activision world design. What big dev will they copy next?
 

smaug

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Hell Swarm

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Designing your game around iframes carrying a player through attacks is lazy and shouldn't have become an industry standard. If you can't design attacks a player can physically dodge and not get hurt then you shouldn't be making an action game.
 

Cheesedragon117

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A successful dodge is often a combination of i-framing and physically outspacing an attack. See: Monster Hunter: World boss design where i-framing an attack doesn't "consume" the attack's hitbox, and thus one or the other evasion style is emphasized depending on the type of monster. There are also some attacks (sweeping breath, tail sweeps) that are difficult or impossible to design a satisfying way to outspace them, but without them, the monster's moveset would feel like it's missing something.

I've never understood this "muh realism!" argument against i-frames in the character action genre. Even if you roll primarily to outspace attacks, i-frames still serve a purpose as a cushion to prevent your toes from getting clipped by attacks you really feel like you should've dodged.
 

Hell Swarm

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There are also some attacks (sweeping breath, tail sweeps) that are difficult or impossible to design a satisfying way to outspace them, but without them, the monster's moveset would feel like it's missing something.
How many animals use their tails as weapons and how much of it is lazy design copying things?
I've never understood this "muh realism!" argument against i-frames in the character action genre. Even if you roll primarily to outspace attacks, i-frames still serve a purpose as a cushion to prevent your toes from getting clipped by attacks you really feel like you should've dodged.
Wasn't making a muh realism argument. iframes are a crutch video gamey mechanic. Imagine any other medium using iframes and you see how incredibly silly they seem.
 

mediocrepoet

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I've never understood this "muh realism!" argument against i-frames in the character action genre. Even if you roll primarily to outspace attacks, i-frames still serve a purpose as a cushion to prevent your toes from getting clipped by attacks you really feel like you should've dodged.
Wasn't making a muh realism argument. iframes are a crutch video gamey mechanic. Imagine any other medium using iframes and you see how incredibly silly they seem.
Yeah, every time I read a novel that uses iframes, I roll my eyes and snort.
 

ERYFKRAD

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I've never understood this "muh realism!" argument against i-frames in the character action genre. Even if you roll primarily to outspace attacks, i-frames still serve a purpose as a cushion to prevent your toes from getting clipped by attacks you really feel like you should've dodged.
Wasn't making a muh realism argument. iframes are a crutch video gamey mechanic. Imagine any other medium using iframes and you see how incredibly silly they seem.
Yeah, every time I read a novel that uses iframes, I roll my eyes and snort.
I suspect TV uses iframes damn near often though.
 

Cheesedragon117

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Honestly, with the kinds of crazy battles Conan the Barbarian survived, that dude was probably i-framing stuff left and right, the book(s) just didn't call it that.


Hmmm, speaking of Conan, anyone else notice Godfrey getting crucified on a tree in the intro, in what seems to be a direct reference to "A Witch Shall Be Born"? I haven't seen anyone else point it out.
 

Lyric Suite

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The reason they need i-frames is so they can actually have a pattern.

Games without i-frames generally seem to be more arcadish in nature. I assume it's the usual suspects of cretins with low visual/spatial IQs who can't discern patterns who are complaining about this, thinking it makes them sophisticated without realizing how much they'd have to simplifly how enemies move to make you able to avoid an attack without i-frames.

FromSoft seems to have hit on something very unique purely because they were forced to work with hitboxes and spacing when they made King's Field originally. It led to a kind of gameplay that seems to be unique to them. I've checked some videos of Monster Hunter for instance and it's a completely different ordeal. I've also been playing Nioh recently, playing it like Souls just out of pure instinct and doing it that way the game is actually more simplistic than Souls. You have less i-frames when dodging attacks but boss patterns are simpler and less sophisticated. I guess the "complexity" lies on the player side, in doing all sorts of combos, fluxing between stances etc, something i haven't tried to do all that much since i'm not used to that kinda of stuff and never did it before.

Notice that over time i-frames have become less and less of a reliable crutch, but that seems to have made people even more angry here. The fact you now have bosses with patterns that cannot actually be easily i-framed all the way through, the introduction of hyperarmor and the need to learn to work around that, the fact you have to mix up parry, jumping, the fact you need to rely on stance breaking to make bosses stop moving so much just made things worst for some people.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Honestly, with the kinds of crazy battles Conan the Barbarian survived, that dude was probably i-framing stuff left and right, the book(s) just didn't call it that.
Nope. Man survived because he invested multiple times on Toughness, so he had enough enough HP to power an engine.
 

Hell Swarm

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Notice that over time i-frames have become less and less of a reliable crutch, but that seems to have made people even more angry here. The fact you now have bosses with patterns that cannot actually be easily i-framed all the way through, the introduction of hyperarmor and the need to learn to work around that, the fact you have to mix up parry, jumping, the fact you need to rely on stance breaking to make bosses stop moving so much just made things worst for some people.
This isn't true in Elden ring at all. Many attacks are reliant on iframes to dodge and the best tactic is commonly to roll into an enemies attack and let your iframes carry you through it. They specifically designed a lot of attacks to catch you if you roll away from them or try to space yourself properly. Having to jump 1, maybe 2 of a bosses attack doesn't stop rolling through the enemies physical weapon being the best option. Dark souls 2 is the only game that even attempted to nerf it by requiring a stat to be leveled and everyone leveled it and resumed being Limp Bizki.t

 

Odoryuk

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People who complain about camera, controls, bad hitboxes and iframes in most cases just rationalise their inability/unwillingness how to play FromSoft games properly.
 

Lyric Suite

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Notice that over time i-frames have become less and less of a reliable crutch, but that seems to have made people even more angry here. The fact you now have bosses with patterns that cannot actually be easily i-framed all the way through, the introduction of hyperarmor and the need to learn to work around that, the fact you have to mix up parry, jumping, the fact you need to rely on stance breaking to make bosses stop moving so much just made things worst for some people.
This isn't true in Elden ring at all. Many attacks are reliant on iframes to dodge and the best tactic is commonly to roll into an enemies attack and let your iframes carry you through it.

Doing that blind is a guaranteed way to smash your face against the damaging part of the attack though.

Rolling in Elden Ring now requires timing exactly like parry. That's why so many people are angry about this game. Whatever it was that made parry so hard for people in past Souls games now applies to rolling as well.

This is what i meant when i said i-frames are no longer as much of a crutch as they used to. It's no longer the guaranteed easy way to deal with boss patterns.

As for spacing and positioning, that also matters more than it used to be as well, but it's more of a question of knowing your way around a pattern.

If you are sking for muh realism, you are not gonna get in a game like this.
 

Odoryuk

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This is what i meant when i said i-frames are no longer as much of a crutch as they used to. It's no longer the guaranteed easy way to deal with boss patterns.
What actually changed since Bloodborne/Dark Souls 3? Feels identical to me (you can't just faceroll through attacks in those games as well and mashing rolls only viable if you want to get away from the enemy).
 

Lyric Suite

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Yeah it's not a new trend but i think with Elden Ring it's starting to get over bearing for some given the amount of stuff they keep carrying over from their previous games. For instance, i feel parry is more something they WANT you do to as opposed to just being a tool that's there for whoever feels brave enough to use it. Some bosses are just begging for it, and are actually harder to deal with without it. Combined with the stance mechanic which rewards aggression, it almost feels like they tried to carry over some stuff from Sekiro into this.
 

Odoryuk

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For instance, i feel parry is more something they WANT you do to as opposed to just being a tool that's there for whoever feels brave enough to use it
They fixed parries being too easy to land in Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3, and in Elden Ring I thought they would refine parries more after playing the network test and realising that Margit needs multiple parries to get riposted, but I can't even remember any other enemy that requires you to land multiple parries for a critical hit, seems like a missed opportunity.
 

Lyric Suite

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For instance, i feel parry is more something they WANT you do to as opposed to just being a tool that's there for whoever feels brave enough to use it
They fixed parries being too easy to land in Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3, and in Elden Ring I thought they would refine parries more after playing the network test and realising that Margit needs multiple parries to get riposted, but I can't even remember any other enemy that requires you to land multiple parries for a critical hit, seems like a missed opportunity.

Parry is not just about getting that critical hit, it's a way of stopping combos altoghether.

The most glaring example of this is Morgott, which i mentioned many times already:



This guy is a really good example of what i'm talking about. He has two combos that are very difficult to roll-fu through if you take them head on. However, in both cases there's a "trick". The first combo, the one he does after his rain of knives, can be stopped entirely with a good parry. The game is even giving you an hint. His sword has this visible aura or trail that feels like it's there to grab your eyes since most people would instinctively look at the magic hammer he raises over his shoulder instead.

The second combo, the one he does in the second phase, can be avoided by moving behind him and rolling through it in reverse. He starts by crossing his sword and magic knife and holding there for a split second which gives you the time to move around and behind him.

Of course, Morgott has weak posture which means just smashing him in the head with the biggest clunk of wood or steel you can find is generally the easiest route, which may or may not be a concession for people who can't cope with the spazzy combos but still.

I'm also not sure doing this:



Was easier than doing this:



Granted the Dragonbarrow version had more health but still. All that damn rolling with all those different timings you have to learn. Same with the Crucible Knights, which for me were always a pain in the ass to roll-fu, but again, not so hard with parry etc.

Basically, for me Elden Ring involves understanding the mechanics and knowing when to use what. Rolling is still the predominant tool but the game can become frustrating if you rely on that exclusively.
 

Hell Swarm

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Doing that blind is a guaranteed way to smash your face against the damaging part of the attack though.
Doing anything blindly is going to get your face smashed in. But many attack's optimal response is to roll into them and hit the boss at the end of the roll. Gold Godrey has loads of those and you're never punished for doing it. There's obviously designed windows with the amount of safety you have after the attack and the range has already been closed so you get to attack in windows you other wise couldn't.
 

Lyric Suite

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Doing that blind is a guaranteed way to smash your face against the damaging part of the attack though.
Doing anything blindly is going to get your face smashed in. But many attack's optimal response is to roll into them and hit the boss at the end of the roll. Gold Godrey has loads of those and you're never punished for doing it. There's obviously designed windows with the amount of safety you have after the attack and the range has already been closed so you get to attack in windows you other wise couldn't.

Not saying traditional Souls roll-fu was completely phased out either. Gold Godfrey is also just the first phase of the real one you meet later so you have to look at it in the context of the full boss fight, same with Mogh.

Ultimately, Elden Ring isn't about any specific thing it's more of an accumulation of mechanics they inherited from their previous games plus a couple of extra ones they invented for this game specifically. And there's always a logic to it too. Pests are universally hated by many people. The first time you meet them in Selia they are a fucking nightmare with that stupid threads attack that can track you around the known universe and back. And then, when you get close they are all spazzy faggots too. Turns out, all you have to do is whip out a shield, which not incidentally is the best tool for both the threads and for close combat, since those guys are weak to guard counters and have weak posture in general.

Basically, here's a few basic rules you can follow for this game. If the boss or enemy is super spazzy, there's likely a way to just make them stop move. Most excessive example is the Revenant, which you can just obliterate with healing spells and they are so fucking annoying you will likely do just that every time you meet them (hands too have a similar counter which is fire). Revenants aside, in most cases those kind of enemies have weak posture, so target that. If the enemy is a bitch to roll-fu or are unreasonably hardy (Crucible Knight for instance) observe whether they have attacks with long wind ups. Likely, you are meant to parry them. Same for bosses that just appear to be extremely pushy, like the fat Godskin boss (the one you meet on the bridge is a big give away, since they intentionally put you in spot with little room to roll through his stupid fancing sword), or those spear Crystalians. If you are in a situation where you feel a shield would be helpful, make sure to test if you can use guard counters as well, don't limit yourself to blocking and so on like this.
 
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