From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[MasPingon]

Didn't expect Erdtree.

 

[Anonona]

You forget those players would use summons and more often than not have high dps/low surv builds. Also the game didn't set traps with the straightforward builds. You pick up a nice big weapon or some big juicy spells, you're doing damage.

All the difficulty complains come from "ethical tryhards".

I didn't say anything about the game setting traps, and also I doubt that is the case with those that use summons. If they are trying to take every advantage I would assume they would go high survability and damage if anything. Also, bold of you to assume the tryhards are the only one complaining. This is a strawman. You will find that you have different kind of players complaining about bosses, regardless of if they tryhard or not, and many complaints aren't about difficulty, but just how fun (or unfun) learning some of the fights are. Like is not weird to see comments from more casual players going "Phase 1 of final boss was fine, but phase 2 with all the visual effects was annoying and couldn't bother to learn it. Just equiped Greatshield and poked him to death" through the web. Or complaints about weird hitboxes and such like with Gaius.

Not saying there are those that complain unjustifiably about difficulty of the DLC, but there is also legit criticism about From's designs and decisions.

 

[d1r]

Didn't expect Erdtree.

Send that to VaatiVidya! I can smell another 2 hour long lore video about this finding!

 

[abija]

I didn't say anything about the game setting traps, and also I doubt that is the case with those that use summons. If they are trying to take every advantage I would assume the opposite, they will go high survability and damage if anything.

You said people have shitty builds which usually is the reasult of traps.

It's not about taking every advantage. The summons system is pushed pretty hard by the designers. Without preconceptions about souls combat you just use it, you don't think "I'm cheesing the game". Playing with summons usually requires less survivability and will gravitate the builds towards more dps.

 

[Anonona]

You said people have shitty builds which usually is the reasult of traps.

Not really. I would argue than more often than not is people just not having enough knowledge about things like softcaps, the % of damage increase, how scaling works, what buffs overwrite each other, having loss access to certain Talisman or items due to quest progression or straight up not knowing where to find them, what are the most optimal stats to level first, the effects of poise and weight, how damage reduction works, etc. A lot of the time people with shitty builds are just people that are clueless about how the game actually works, maybe due to being new to the game or RPGs or not bothering to understand the system well. There is a good reason why many veterans have to remind players to level Vigor at the beginning instead of their main stat, because without prior experience a lot of people make the mistake of investing to much on their main stat while weapons still have shit scaling and have a harder early game experience.

It's not about taking every advantage. The summons system is pushed pretty hard by the designers. Without preconceptions about souls combat you just use it, you don't think "I'm cheesing the game". Playing with summons usually requires less survivability and will gravitate the builds towards more dps.

But I'm not arguing that it is cheesing the game. In fact I'm of the opposite opinion, it is a fundamental part of the game. People can play the game how they damn well please. Also players will normally try to take every advantage they can. Not saying you are wrong about players going for more offensive builds if they use summons, but I doubt most casual players for example would go for a very optimized high risk high reward build the first time around, instead opting to boost both defense and offense at the same time. That is why most would choose Flame give me Strenght instead of Howl of Sahibri when first going through the game or learning a boss, or if they don't have much confidence in surviving the fight with a defense debuff.

But I fail to see how this is really relevant to the disscussion. I never said anything about it being bad or wrong to play at the best of your skills or use the systems given by the game to win as wrong. Is an aRPG after all, being good at the RPG part is important. But at the same time it doesn't just negates any issue the game may have. Just because the player can win without learning the boss doesn't automatically mean that boss is well designed nor fun.

 

[Hell Swarm]

There is zero self awareness here. The "try hards" aren't the people using the tools they find while exploring. The try hards are the wikifags popping multiple buffs and killing bosses in a handful of hits.

But at the same time it doesn't just negates any issue the game may have. Just because the player can win without learning the boss doesn't automatically mean that boss is well designed nor fun.

Lyric will absolutely defend anything From do because he abuses wikis to kill bosses in under a minute. Then argues there's no design flaws in souls games because the camera isn't a problem if you're killing a boss in a single combo. He has an ego tied to From games for some reason and will argue for the rest of his life they're not broken because "if it was From would have fixed it". Only a thread ban or death will stop him shitting up the discussion the same way he has for the last 100 pages.


Found this review and I thought it was pretty cool. Don't agree on everything but I think he hits the core problems with Elden ring and the DLC.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Codex game criticisms have really gone to the toilet these days.

You use more than one buff in a game that has many buffs! Must be consulting a wiki!

You use a weapon that does a lot of damage in a post end game area! That's practically cheating!

It's like nuDexers just slam their faces into their desks until inspiration hits on what new depths of retardation to introduce to these sacred shores.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Codex game criticisms have really gone to the toilet these days.

You use more than one buff in a game that has many buffs! Must be consulting a wiki!

You use a weapon that does a lot of damage in a post end game area! That's practically cheating!

It's like nuDexers just slam their faces into their desks until inspiration hits on what new depths of retardation to introduce to these sacred shores.

Have you considered maybe your not playing the game right when you completely skip boss phases?

 

[Anonona]

Codex game criticisms have really gone to the toilet these days.

You use more than one buff in a game that has many buffs! Must be consulting a wiki!

You use a weapon that does a lot of damage in a post end game area! That's practically cheating!

It's like nuDexers just slam their faces into their desks until inspiration hits on what new depths of retardation to introduce to these sacred shores.

Why are you misrepresenting the discussion? The point was that being able to burst the boss doesn't make it good nor erase its flaws, while the point about the build used was a very secondary one. The build go beyond just buffs, as is a combination of different talismans and weapons that showns knowledge of the game and that is very probable that your casual player won't even use most of the time, because is a specific, high risk high reward build. Somehow for some reason the point has been read as complaining about him using that build and buffs when in reality that was never the point. Is that him using such build and killing the boss before it can use it movesets wouldn't excuse if it was bad, which, by the way, we aren't saying the Lion is bad, on the contrary, most people actually like it despite it flaws.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Didn't know that you could spam Jump in the

Spoiler

falling star/meteor

phase of the final boss to cancel it - something about loosing tracks.
Makes the fight much easier by saving potion or two.

 

[Anonona]

Makes the fight much easier by saving potion or two.

Didn't know about that one.

Spoiler

You can also run far away from where he jumped to avoid it completely without having to time dodges

 

[mediocrepoet]

Why are you misrepresenting the discussion?

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose. Let's have a look at the discussion and my characterization of it...

Here are my claims regarding the criticisms lately:

1. You use more than one buff in a game that has many buffs! Must be consulting a wiki!
2. You use a weapon that does a lot of damage in a post end game area! That's practically cheating!

Now, let's have a look at some of the remarks:

Examples of claim 1:

A normal person doesn't stack buffs like this. Only an autist with a wiki does.

You are also assuming most player know how to build and exploit the game system to its fullest without a wiki, create decent builds, or where to even find a lot of those buffs.

Examples of claim 2:

in general buffs just aren't used and no one is stacking them.

Without mentioning that perhaps they prefer not to use some of the most powerful stuff like bleed because they wanted to build something different.

Examples of claim 1 and 2 together:

He didn't do any of that though. He stacked a bunch of buffs and killed it with a meta weapon

The "try hards" aren't the people using the tools they find while exploring. The try hards are the wikifags popping multiple buffs and killing bosses in a handful of hits.

Conclusion:
You likely represent an important, yet often ignored demographic: the functionally illiterate. Diversity is our strength.

Whatever LS's faults or issues, exploration of a game world and the ability to read, think, and do some basic math used to be considered relatively normal and part of playing a game. You have to be pretty retarded to think you need to consult a wiki to notice things like when buffs overwrite eachother (to some extent - this isn't completely clear without some work), which buffs or weapons are better or worse, or how to find things by actually spending time exploring the world instead of whining that open world bad.

 

[Lyric Suite]

You are also assuming most player know how to build and exploit the game system to its fullest without a wiki, create decent builds, or where to even find a lot of those buffs.

Yes, i am in fact assuming as much, especially considering this is a DLC to a game all of those people already played from start to finish.

My assumption is not only correct but it is basically a given. Wiki my ass everybody knows about bleed weapons. Everybody can understand basic shit like buffs, which is like one simple step from understanding basic shit like healing. You think anybody went through Malenia, Maliketh etc and STILL not know any of that shit? Come on dude, get off that bullshit already. This DLC is intended to be the late game of all late games. It's made for "veterans", people who already finished the basic game. It's not a separate game where people are just stating now and don't even know what a "buff" is.

Here's another thought: if the boss isn't a DPS race (i think it has to be if you want to do a no-hit run, though some "pros" out there may be able to pull it off i'm sure), then i think it's intentionally made where taking some damage isn't a big deal. Why? Because every time he switches powers you get time enough to chug down three heals and then some. In fact, you could probably "buff" multiple times in the middle of the fight with all the time it takes the Lion to cavort in the sky to assume a different power.

The idea of a boss that has made it a bit difficult not to take any damage with the mitigating factor that you get free heals may be a bit avant-guard but i don't see anything wrong with that concept. Don't forget the that main argument is that the DLC has reached "bullshit" levels where only the "pros" can get through a fight without using summons and the like. If a regular player can pull through even though he may get knocked on his ass a few times, that's completely normal. If the elemental phases are too chaotic and sometimes it feels you only took damage because of bad luck, it's ok, because like i said you get free heals anyway.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Guys, bleeding weapons are the same as finding multiple hidden buffs and applying them all to a meta weapon outside the boss door before you kill a boss in 1 hit. Totally the same thing.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Golden Vow, "hidden" buffs lmao.

Here's the combination of "hidden" buffs i used for that fight:

Spells: Golden Vow & Howl of Shabriri
Crystal Tears: Stonebarb Cracked Tear & Fire Damage
Talismans: Radagon Soreseal, Two Fingers Heirloom, Ritual Sword Talisman & Fire Scorpion Charm
Weapon art i used: Savage Lion's Claw

And that's it, that's the duper esoteric combination of gear that apparently only the "pros" are aware of, even though all those items spell out what they do in their very description. With this set up i piled on so many damage debuffs i think i had like negative 30-40 on all defensive stats. He could have brushed my face with a feather and i still would have died. Classic glass cannon build, all geared at ending the fight as fast as possible with the caveat that i wasn't allowed to take on any damage whatsover. If the boss was any tankier i probably wouldn't have been able to pull it off and it still took some doing not to take damage from his static charge (which for me is the only difficult part in all his elemental phases).

 

[Anonona]

You likely represent an important, yet often ignored demographic: the functionally illiterate. Diversity is our strength.

You are still misrepresenting what I said. Despite how simple build crafting actually is in ER, you will be surprised on how many players just plainly don't know even basic stuff, let alone create good builds or really what the best options are. And it doesn't change the fact that depending on how you are making your character maybe using things like bleed just isn't part of the plan or you are building around other weapons that are not just as good. And again, you fail to address the fact that it was a high risk, high reward build that I'm pretty sure most people won't run, even in this very thread. You also fail to account for players that may not be using certain spells just because their build just doesn't use faith for example. And finally, Shadow of the Erdtree really was hyped, it brought many new players that doesn't know jack shit about the game.

Like, you sincerily think, that all the whining about how hard the DLC is (not the quality mind you), or how bosses like the Lion or Rellana are too hard, comes from people that actually know how to use the RPG elements well? You really think all the players that complained had build that allowed to burst the bosses just like Lyric while also using Ashes to summon? I find it hard to believe. You still find host with shit Vigor despite how important it is. It was mixed for a while in steam, that meant a lot of people really struggled despite having such tools at their disposal. And seeing how effective they are, I have a hard time believing most players that complained did actually use them.

But above all, it doesn't matter how much you want to insult me or try to misrepresent what my points were, you also missed completely the fact that, even if most players played the game in this style, it still wouldn't mean that the game has no issues. Specially, because this disscussion was about the fact that Lyric claimed that the boss was designed specifically to be bursted to death and skip mechanics, which is frankly insane to think about, and somehow that means there is no issues with it, which even if it was true, the video would do a piss poor job at proving it.

My assumption is not only correct but it is basically a given. Wiki my ass everybody knows about bleed weapons. Everybody can understand basic shit like buffs, which is like one simple step from understanding basic shit like healing. You think anybody went through Malenia, Maliketh etc and STILL not know any of that shit? Come on dude, get off that bullshit already. This DLC is intended to be the late game of all late games. It's made for "veterans", people who already finished the basic game. It's not a separate game where people are just stating now and don't even know what a "buff" is.

Never say people don't know what a buff is. Good strawman though. Again, in this very thread it had been said many times how most people just don't know how to use all their tools and that is why they are complaining, but suddenly every single players knows how to do so when it is convenient for your argument. Also you understimate how many new blood was attracted to the game due to the "hype", who rushed through and many who sadly looked stuff online due to FOMO.

Here's another thought: if the boss isn't a DPS race (i think it has to be if you want to do a no-hit run, though some "pros" out there may be able to pull it off i'm sure), then i think it's intentionally made where taking some damage isn't a big deal. Why? Because every time he switches powers you get time enough to chug down three heals and then some. In fact, you could probably "buff" multiple times in the middle of the fight with all the time it takes the Lion to cavort in the sky to assume a different power.

What does this have anything to do with anything? What unavoidable damage? The fact that you can avoid all damage is proof enough that the boss and its attacks are designed to be able to be learned and responded to. Yes, all bosses in a way are a DPS race, as the faster they die, the better. That is basic videogame design, specially RPGs. But unless the game specifically kill you for taking too long or doing to little damage in a specific time, be it because the boss has a sudden death move, a time limit, he heals himself if you don't do enough damage, etc, then saying it was designed specifically to be killed before reaching a certain phase just isn't right.

The idea of a boss that has made it a bit difficult not to take any damage with the mitigating factor that you get free heals may be a bit avant-guard...

Not really that avant-guard, games like Ninja Gaiden 2 were pretty much designed with the idea that you will end up taking damage sooner or later, and it is more about killing the enemy faster than they kill you.

but i don't see anything wrong with that concept.

And there isn't anything wrong with that idea, I already played games with DPS checks, some that kill you other that just inflict great damage or status effects. Is just that this isn't just the same case. All bosses in the DLC, from first to last, have certain openings to heal, some bigger other not, but that doesn't mean the fact that you can burst them down dictated what its moveset was. At most it may have affected its stats and some miscelleanuous design chocies (like introducing a cutscene for the phase change to avoid players killing it too fast for example).

Don't forget the that main argument is that the DLC has reached "bullshit" levels where only the "pros" can get through a fight without using summons and the like.

Not my argument though. I'm as casual as it gets and I got through without summons. Which is also a bit weird as you are not using summons and, as much as you like to claim it is the normal, we don't even know what is the most popular weapons and builds people are using through the DLC. As I said, the video is pointless in trying to prove anything. And the worst thing is that is actually in a boss that is pretty good, so the disscussion is being extra pointless.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The fact that you can avoid all damage is proof enough that the boss and its attacks are designed to be able to be learned and responded to.

The argument is that only the "pros" can do that. If that's true, and "normal" people are bound to take damage unless the RNG is absolutely in their favor, then it's very significant that this boss unlike most is so generous in giving the player opportunities to heal. What makes you think that isn't by design?

 

[Anonona]

The argument is that only the "pros" can do that

Whoms argument? Never said that myself.

If that's true, and "normal" people are bound to take damage unless the RNG is absolutely in their favor, then it's very significant that this boss unlike most is so generous in giving the player opportunities to heal. What makes you think that isn't by design?

When did I said that? Did you not finish reading my message where I pointed out that all bosses have opening for healing. Of course is by design, when did I argue that it wasn't? The issue was if this boss was being specifically designed to be bursted and to skip phases, which is not. The biggest evidence of this is that its moveset remains consistent with the first phase, so it is obvious that the first phase is teaching you how to deal with the second while throwing new stuff in the mix, which is a very good and standard design for bosses; presenting a mechanic in a easier to understand form before ramping things up for the second phase. Why bother doing that if you are meant to skip it? The fact that you can do it, and is optimal, doesn't say anything about the design of the boss itself and wheter its moveset is fair or not.

And again, the Lion is good, it has flaws but is a good fight, I don't understand why are you trying now to paint it as if I had said it was bad or unfair.

 

[Silverfish]

he looked up all the buffs on a wiki, stacked them with a meta weapon and went "I'm so good at this game!"

Yes, that's what being good at the Souls games actually is. I know that, as time has gone on, the community has adopted the pretense that these are skill-based games, but they've always been about clever tactics and exploiting your knowledge first and foremost. No one who's a Souls fan wants to hear this, but the series has a lot more in common with Elder Scrolls than it does Ninja Gaiden.

A normal person doesn't stack buffs like this. Only an autist with a wiki does.

Back in 2009, I'd agree. But by this point, hyper mode is a series meme.

From do not spend hundreds of hours designing multiple boss phases for you to burst them down and never see them.

Maybe not, but dps bosses have been a staple since the beginning. Skipping phases in ER doesn't strike me as all that different from trying to quickly kill the first maneater or belfry gargoyle to prevent a two on one when he hits half health.

you will be surprised on how many players just plainly don't know even basic stuff, let alone create good builds or really what the best options are.

Highest possible HP, get the talisman that slowly recovers health, spam bloody slash. Glad I could help.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Maybe not, but dps bosses have been a staple since the beginning. Skipping phases in ER doesn't strike me as all that different from trying to quickly kill the first maneater or belfry gargoyle to prevent a two on one when he hits half health.

The only DPS boss in the entire Franchise is 4 kings. Everything else you can always avoid damage from. 4 kings has to be beaten quickly or you get overwhelmed by 5 of them spawning and attacking you at once. The dual boss fights don't have to be beaten quickly if you can manage 2 bosses at once. Dark souls 2 multi boss fights on a timer are much closer to what you mean and even they're not a DPS check.

The fact that you can avoid all damage is proof enough that the boss and its attacks are designed to be able to be learned and responded to.

The argument is that only the "pros" can do that. If that's true, and "normal" people are bound to take damage unless the RNG is absolutely in their favor, then it's very significant that this boss unlike most is so generous in giving the player opportunities to heal. What makes you think that isn't by design?

No one called you a pro, they called you an autistic tryhard. It's different.

Every boss has healing windows. They're the same as attack windows but you push a different button.

Back in 2009, I'd agree. But by this point, hyper mode is a series meme.

Depends how you interact with the games. It's a meme to be in hyper mode with a massive strength weapon and 2 hitting bosses because you saw a youtuber do it. But that isn't the main way people play the game. The fact that you're here on a forum discussing this shit means you're already an exceptional part of the souls community. Most people don't engage in online discussion of what they do at all. They don't watch youtubers and they don't check wikis. You never know they exist.

 

[Reinhardt]

he made elden ring combat looks more exciting than it is in reality...

 

[mediocrepoet]

You likely represent an important, yet often ignored demographic: the functionally illiterate. Diversity is our strength.

Cope cope cope-ity cope.

Look, I stopped reading whatever you wrote after the first few sentences because my eyes glazed over. But sure.

But above all, it doesn't matter how much you want to insult me or try to misrepresent what my points were, you also missed completelly the fact that, even if most players played the game in this style, it still wouldn't mean that the game has no issues.

No I didn't, I simply said that you and HS have shit criticisms with regard to your whining about LS. It's not even like it's a subtle difference in points, but thanks for reaffirming my "functionally illiterate" statement I guess.

Specially, because this disscussion was about the fact that Lyric claimed that the boss was designed specifically to be bursted to death and skip mechanics, which is frankly insane to think about, and somehow that means there is no issues with it.

Did he actually make that claim? I think he just said you could deal with it in such a manner and either way, it proved that there were sufficient mechanics you could use to mitigate the game's difficulty which seems to have been an area of complaint. But by all means, I didn't care enough to read super closely or watch the video he made, so feel free to point out his quote if you have one.

 

[Anonona]

Did he actually make that claim? I think he just said you could deal with it in such a manner and either way, it proved that there were sufficient mechanics you could use to mitigate the game's difficulty which seems to have been an area of complaint. But by all means, I didn't care enough to read super closely or watch the video he made, so feel free to point out his quote if you have one.

Well, how do you know the boss isn't INTENDED to be burst like that? It's not the first time FromSoft designed something you were specifically intended to take down as fast as possible.[...]

Wouldn't they? I got the distinct feeling the boss was meant to be a race. Out damage him before he gets too out of hand. All the "design" of the boss went into his moveset anyway, the elemental attacks were easy to add to me it just felt like FromSoft was begging you to kill him before he got to use them all. Why would you tarry anyway. Any normal player would try to get as much damage as possible early on precisely to shorten the elemental phases as much as possible.

This two. The video was supposedly proof that the boss was completely fine. We pointed out that, even if it is (which many of us agree it is), the video is not good at proving anything because he skipped most of the fight and even still you could see issues with the camera. He argue that it may be in fact design to be skipped and that is why second phase is so chaotic. We argue that the boss really wasn't designed specifically to be skipped, is just a result of a good build being able to dominate the boss and optimal play. These include talisman, weapon of choice and buffs combination. Then the conversation got dragged about what most casual players would use or not without looking up a wiki or even if they would use that setup, and if the video is really a good representation of what the average casual goes through the game.

No offense bu I find a bit in poor taste to call people illiterate when you yourself neglected to read the discussion that took place and still felt the necessity to insult and interject. I really dont think I said nothing so outlandish to merit such response too...

 

[Child of Malkav]

Nothing is tuned in these games. Never was. Memehackzaki talks about difficulty, overcoming adversity, how it brings some kind of sense of accomplishment and how it brings people to the same table on equal footing but it's bullshit. If you use most/some/all the tools in the game, the game is on baby journo mode. Hollow victory. If you don't, game shows you how hell looks like before you go there. Extremes only, no middle ground, nothing in between. Also no sense of accomplishment but one of relief. Guy is talking out of his ass. There's many OP tools and combinations you can make still in the game but they weren't nerfed because the jewtubers didn't make a video on them yet. That's why they nerf anything by popular demand. This also betrays a complete lack of vision for the game. I'm not one to want nerfs, I want buffs for the things that are not good enough, but I think you can still have OP stuff while still having balance and maintaining fun. But it's a fine line to walk on. One that From has proven they're not capable of walking.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I didn't say the boss was intended to be done that way absolutely, i was only speculating on the possibilities. It was a "what if". The fact that it can be done, and that a lot of the elemental phases appear to have a good deal of RNG, especially in the lighting phase where sometimes it doesn't seem possible to just roll to dodge the boss attack AND dodge the static at the same time, made me speculate on the possibility. This was then compounded by the fact i did it without Scadutree Blessings, which is not the intended way. So i figured, if i could do this without Scadutree upgrades, than perhaps the boss is supposed to be a DPS race.

The other way of course is to just deal with the possibility of having to take damage, after which i suggested there may be a reason why this boss allows such easy healing. Every elemental change is like if the boss fight resets itself. You can simply heal and go at it again. As long as you don't die, you can easily pull through no problem. I assume for most people the fight would look something like this:



Look though, the guy is using double bleed katanas! What a try hard, right? Or maybe he is just relying on a tool provided by the game, who knows.