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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,851

Yes, that's what being good at the Souls games actually is. I know that, as time has gone on, the community has adopted the pretense that these are skill-based games, but they've always been about clever tactics and exploiting your knowledge first and foremost. No one who's a Souls fan wants to hear this, but the series has a lot more in common with Elder Scrolls than it does Ninja Gaiden.

You guys need to get the fuck out of this forum there's no way anybody should be allowed to be a Codexer while being this mentally retarded.

"Hahaha, it's not about skill bro, you are just exploiting the things the developers put in the game to help you, the same as every other RPG game ever".

I don't even understand how this retardation is possible. Using standard tools provided by the developer: exploiting your "knowledge". I guess the "intended" way to play this game according to this is to never read what a spell does, never actually learn what equipment does, never use consumables and of course always pick your stats at random when leveling up.

I mean, if you guys want i can go at it again. I got the save backed up. Maybe i can do a run with defensive talismans only, how's that? Would that be sufficient?
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,851
It's also clear you guys have no idea what was actually going on here. You don't seem to understand the only reason i was able to pull off that "burst" is because i didn't make a single mistake. For how hard i hit him both the bleed proc and the stance breaking happened relatively late. I didn't trivalize him with "buffs", i only succeded because i was able to keep the hits coming uninterrupted.

It's the same when i "burst" Morgott:



No, i didn't pull this off because of the "buffs", it's because first of all, i knew in my head i was going to break his stance while he was casting his rain of knifes. If i didn't, i would have gotten hit and the momentum would have been lost. Second, i was only able to break him again because i learned how to i-frame through the explotion he does at the start of the second phase, which allowed me to hit him over and over without interruptions until he folded a second time.

This is not a matter of bragging about "muh skills" i'm pointing out "reading" wikis (and one wonders what knowledge i'm supposed to have taken from there, that Golden Vow buffs your damage?) had jack shit to do with accomplishing the "burst". It's the same with the Ongbal video i posted:



Go read a wiki then record a video of doing the same thing he does, by all means.
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
3,881
The only DPS boss in the entire Franchise is 4 kings. Everything else you can always avoid damage from. 4 kings has to be beaten quickly or you get overwhelmed by 5 of them spawning and attacking you at once. The dual boss fights don't have to be beaten quickly if you can manage 2 bosses at once. Dark souls 2 multi boss fights on a timer are much closer to what you mean and even they're not a DPS check.

Yeah, I agree that the kings are the best overall example of a dps boss, but my point was that skipping a phase in ER is not all that different from skipping a 2v1 in Demon's.

They don't watch youtubers and they don't check wikis.

I think a lot of them do actually. This stuff isn't niche anymore.

You guys need to get the fuck out of this forum there's no way anybody should be allowed to be a Codexer while being this mentally retarded.

"Hahaha, it's not about skill bro, you are just exploiting the things the developers put in the game to help you, the same as every other RPG game ever".

I don't even understand how this retardation is possible. Using standard tools provided by the developer: exploiting your "knowledge". I guess the "intended" way to play this game according to this is to never read what a spell does, never actually learn what equipment does, never use consumables and of course always pick your stats at random when leveling up.

I mean, if you guys want i can go at it again. I got the save backed up. Maybe i can do a run with defensive talismans only, how's that? Would that be sufficient?

You've gotten too used to bantering back and forth with Hell Swarm and are looking for a fight where there wasn't one. I don't want you to play the game in any way you don't want to (although defensive talismans are pretty good), and I never said you shouldn't read anything in-game, in fact I said the opposite. For clarification (because Swarm was closer to the mark about you than I gave him credit for), exploiting your knowledge of the game, paying attention and thinking tactically will always trump twitch reflexes and mechanical skill and that leaning into that style is what constitutes "being good" at Souls.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,851
There is zero self awareness here. The "try hards" aren't the people using the tools they find while exploring. The try hards are the wikifags popping multiple buffs and killing bosses in a handful of hits.

I presume reading "wikis" automatically puts items in your inventory that can't be found while "exploring". I mean what other way is there to make sense of this statement. Or i suppose one gets to use stuff like Golden Vow or Howl of Shabriri only if they read a "wiki". A normal explorer would just shelve them in his storage and never even read their descriptions or try to figure out what they do.
 

Anonona

Learned
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
647
No one is questioning your skill at the game, but how accurate it is to the casual player. You just said that you have to pretty much no-hit the boss, is clear then that that is not really average. And the video you shared of the doble katana guy actually is closer to what a regular player does, and even then most players would have probably summoned ashes at least or even NPCs or other players. Also no one here said the guy was imposible or such.

Besides, as you yourself stablish, a win is a win and tools are to be used, your win is as legit as of a player summoning and using spells from afar or a "tryhard" using only Fists SL. Don't need to get defensive in that front, your win is more than legit and you wont see me arguing the contrary

As I did before, I admit I may have a distorted view on what is average. But also is hard to explain then if players actually had builds comparable to yours, even if weaker but safer versions, why so many complained about the difficulty when a good build make the fights reasonable or even easy?

I'm arguing that perhaps you may be putting too much faith on the average consumer. I have seen people actually beat the game and not know what guard counter is, or some people that played the game once, swear the game was unfair, and then replay after watching videos on how to make builds and claim the game is easy.

Again, I could be the one in the wrong here, but i don't think it is too far fetched to consider the possibility that a considerable amount of people may actually lack even basic skills at character building.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,851

You've gotten too used to bantering back and forth with Hell Swarm and are looking for a fight where there wasn't one. I don't want you to play the game in any way you don't want to (although defensive talismans are pretty good), and I never said you shouldn't read anything in-game, in fact I said the opposite. For clarification (because Swarm was closer to the mark about you than I gave him credit for), exploiting your knowledge of the game, paying attention and thinking tactically will always trump twitch reflexes and mechanical skill and that leaning into that style is what constitutes "being good" at Souls.

I'm talking to people who are claiming all the "try hards" do is read "wikis" then stack "buffs" to kill bosses in two hits.

I'm absolutely in the camp of those who believe FromSoft's combat is more about knowledge than quick reflexes, but the knowledge that allows you to succeed isn't something that can be learned on a "wiki". Much like reading a book on guitar method doesn't automatically allow you to play guitar if you never touched one.
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
3,881
I'm talking to people who are claiming all the "try hards" do is read "wikis" then stack "buffs" to kill bosses in two hits.

"I'm not talking about you."

Quotes me and responds with:

You guys need to get the fuck out of this forum there's no way anybody should be allowed to be a Codexer while being this mentally retarded.

"Hahaha, it's not about skill bro, you are just exploiting the things the developers put in the game to help you, the same as every other RPG game ever".

I don't even understand how this retardation is possible.

If you'd leveled adp, I wouldn't have caught it.

xe2nm87jint41.jpg
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,851
No one is questioning your skill at the game, but how accurate it is to the casual player.

I was trying to debunk the notion all you needed was "read a wiki" and stack "buffs" when obviously there's a lot more going on here. How can i take seriously a criticism of the game coming from someone making arguments like that. That's what set me off.

In terms of that approach working for the casual player, i was merely speculating given people say Scadutree upgrades make a big difference, though perhaps i was over estimating how much. It's worth point out though that the double katana guy manages to actually take over half of the boss life before the lighting phase begins, and his playing was rather sloppy. If he had done a perfect run on the non-elemental first phase, i don't think you would have seen the wind or frost phases in his video either. And i think FromSoft knows that people would try their best to just do as much damage as humanly possible during the easier first phase which might be one of the reasons they went to town with the elemental phases, knowing people would do anything in their power to cut those short.

If they wanted to prevent that they could have easily given the boss an actual second phase with an health bar refill. The fact they didn't means they at the very least expected people would put their all their efforts on a DPS race to see as little of the elemental phases as possible.

Again, I admit I may have a distorted view on what is average. But also is hard to explain then if players actually had builds comparable to yours, even if weaker but safer versions, why so many complained about the difficulty when a good build make them reasonable or even easy? I'm arguing that perhaps you may be putting too much faith on the average consumer. But again, I could be the one in the wrong here.

My build isn't actually good though, but it's not about the build anyway.

I think the complaint is not that the boss is hard as such, but that it is impossibly hard. Not so hard as to be impossible to beat, but i think people feel a lot of the time they get hit through no fault of their own. Making mistakes is one thing, getting hit because many times the boss does things that the player simply cannot react to is another. I think thast's basically the general complaint with this DLC.

Now perhaps i'm putting too much trust in FromSoft but i've always been of the opinion everything they do is calculated. True sometimes the occational jank creates unintended difficulties for the player but that's not the only issue with this boss because some dificulties appear to be fully intended, and if it's intented there must be a way. And often times i found that the "way" is an intended exploit you are supposed to use. That's been the major breakthrough that sets Elden Ring apart from Souls. While there were bosses in Souls that also were a puzzle you had to solve (like Artorias for instance), they leaned very heavily on this in Elden Ring, and i think they did so in part as a response to all the powerful tools they gave the player. In fact, you could almost say that because they gave the player things that seems almost unfair for the boss, they ended up giving bosses things that are unfair to the player in return.

In the case of this boss, you cannot say for instance that stuff like bleed or rot are "for try hards". If the boss is weak to those things it means the difficutly is balanced with those weaknesses in mind. You don't need to read a wiki either you can just try things out to see what works best. In my case i didn't read the wiki to know he was weak to fire. I tried out the same weapon with different damage types to see which hit the hardest.
 

FugueLah

Scholar
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
165
A normal person doesn't stack buffs like this. Only an autist with a wiki does.
A normal person will use spirit ashes though.

Guys, bleeding weapons are the same as finding multiple hidden buffs and applying them all to a meta weapon outside the boss door before you kill a boss in 1 hit. Totally the same thing.
You have really set the bar incredibly low for how you expect players to cope with the game's challenges. These are the same players that have beaten Mogh btw. And if they needed help then, they will take help now. The DLC bosses are almost too easy. They may be aggro with long attack chains, but their HP is low and they are vulnerable to burst. Midra in particular is a nutty boss, but his health was too low cause much issue.
 
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Anonona

Learned
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
647
Sorry your feelings are hurt. Suck it up.
I do admit I was taken aback by the response. It's allright though, not offense taken. Bygones be bygones.

I was trying to debunk the notion all you needed was "read a wiki" and stack "buffs" when obviously there's a lot more going on here. How can i take seriously a criticism of the game coming from someone making arguments like that. That's what set me of off
You are right in the notion that you don't need neither a wiki nor stack buffs to win. At least, for my part, I wasnt arguing that. My point is more about if a casual player would actually make use of a combination of build and buffs like that, specially the kind of player that leaves a bad review because of the difficulty, despite it not being actually quite simple. I think most players are handicaping themselves and don't know it and miss even things that we consider basic and resort to builds online.

But as pointed out by FugueLah, people did beat Mohg to reach the DLC, so perhaps it is me who doesn't give the average player enough credits.

If they wanted to prevent that they could have easily given the boss an actual second phase with an health bar refill. The fact they didn't means they at the very least expected people would put their all their efforts on a DPS race to see as little of the elemental phases as possible.
I do agree that the lack of cutscene or increase of enemy defense do seem an indicator that players are encourged to do as much damage as possible. I still think the elemental phase moveset itself isn't really design with the mind of being skipped, because there is really not indications that it is like that. I can agree that those openings are very deliberate to give a chance to do big damage, specially compared to later ones, but are only that, openings for damage.

Now perhaps i'm putting too much trust in FromSoft but i've always been of the opinion everything they do is calculated. True sometimes the occational jank creates unintended difficulties for the player but that's not the only issue with this boss because some dificulties appear to be fully intended, and if it's intented there must be a way. And often times i found that the "way" is an intended exploit you are supposed to use. That's been the major breakthrough that sets Elden Ring apart from Souls. While there were bosses in Souls that also were a puzzle you had to solve (like Artorias for instance), they leaned very heavily on this in Elden Ring, and i think they did so in part as a response to all the powerful tools they gave the player. In fact, you could almost say that because they gave the player things that seems almost unfair for the boss, they ended up giving bosses things that are unfair to the player in return.
I don't know if I quite agree. I do think From are quite capable when it comes to designing a game, you can see many instances of such, but I think they also have many issues that date back to even their older games. I think some of the unfair stuff of both players and bosses is untentional. They do nerf a lot of popular builds and have problems balancing the PVP with the PVE.

I would be more inclined to blame the scope of the game for its shortcomings or odd balancing and designs. While they did a remarkable job, I think the scale of the game may have meant that they couldn't really tighten the gameplay as much as past entries nor innovate in the combat department. From is famous for they rocky development. Also a certain degree of catering to a more mainstream audience in certain changes of their design paradigm. But I cant say anything definitive, just my thoughs.

Won't quote the last part, as this message is long enough as is, but yeag, I agree that exploiting deliberate weaknesses of the bosses isn't try hard.
 
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Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,081
A normal person doesn't stack buffs like this. Only an autist with a wiki does.
A normal person will use spirit ashes though.

Guys, bleeding weapons are the same as finding multiple hidden buffs and applying them all to a meta weapon outside the boss door before you kill a boss in 1 hit. Totally the same thing.
You have really set the bar incredibly low for how you expect players to cope with the game's challenges. These are the same players that have beaten Mogh btw. And if they needed help then, they will take help now. The DLC bosses are almost too easy. They may be aggro with long attack chains, but their HP is low and they are vulnerable to burst. Midra in particular is a nutty boss, but his health was too low cause much issue.
They have higher HP than the base game bosses.

This is why Lyric needed his own thread and to be thread banned from all From games to stop him being so retarded he derails every time he posts. Any one arguing "Bleed is a broken mechanic" doesn't understand why Bleed exists. From are stuck between autists like Lyric stacking all the buffs and used 2 handed colossals crying the game is too easy because they have to dodge like 5 attacks and skip multiple phases. People using 1 hand weapons and very few buffs having to hit a boss 10 times to get the same damage as one hit from a giant weapon were at a serious disadvantage. So From power crept the bosses to match how poorly balanced 2 handed strength builds are and bleed was buffed to make it so 5-10 small weapon hits give free bonus damage to catch up with the 2 handing twinks. It's the same reason the twinks don't understand why From games have so many buffs and it's not because they're expected to be stacked. Players aren't expected to find everything and no one does, so there are lots of buffs laying around so you can find one if you want one and find one that leans into your build. In Dark souls Power within was in a difficult to explore area with a difficult to fight monster in a some what happen path. It wasn't expected to be stacked with hurting yourself to get a red tear stone buff and melt bosses. If you think "Well why wouldn't I do that?" then you should ask yourself why you're playing these games at all because it's not to actually play them. If your objective is to skip as much content as possible you might as well never install the game or put it in your console since then you've 100% skipped everything and had about the same experience once you take the wikis ans busy work out of it if you're not cheating using pre-generated characters already which a lot of souls 'content creators' now are.

"Why wouldn't you stack all these buffs and miss half the game's content because you skip phases" is a stupid and obvious argument to dispel. Unlike some people I don't tie my ego to From games and have to look up guides to beat them as autistically as possible to keep from having a total melt down. I want to see the different boss phases and learn how to overcome them not just bursting the boss down. This new 'meta' of using save states at boss doors and stacking buffs so you burst a boss down but die in 1 hit is just a pathetic excuse for a game at this point. We all know it's what you're doing and you think you're hot shit with your 50 youtube subscribes but you're exactly what the Demon's souls community said was going to happen to the game series as it lost it's soul. There's no adventure any more, there's no personal growth or changing of tactics. There is just huge DPS numbers and hoping the boss doesn't do a fast attack in one of the five you need to dodge before it's dead. You can't even discuss the difficulty any more because of these people. From has always given you ways to cheese bosses and the community used to understand these were a cheese and weren't the normal way people played the game. People didn't play that way because the experience was more important then the victory. Finding YOUR path to beating a difficult boss rather than abusing exploits or using the game journo mode was what made these games unique and interesting. Now you have completely mongoloids trying to tell you the DLC isn't too hard and doesn't have problems because a boss dying in a couple of hits where many of them are done during a phase transition doesn't force them to face the actual problems the bosses present. You're not playing the game, you're cheesing the game and From hoped you were smart enough not to ruin your own experience but clearly you're not and want to broadcast that stupidity to the world instead.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,258
You're the one who needed his own thread. Pretty much all you complained about initially has been proven to be horseshit. Nice backpedalling btw with "They have higher HP than the base game bosses." after complaining they are hp sponges. No shit sherlock the dlc starts from a boss that's close to end game, gives you 30-40 levels easy and a multiplicative buff on top.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,081
I'm starting to notice the people on the opposite side of this argument don't actually read anything written. They take the first line and ignore everything else despite things they post right after being explained in the post they're responding to. They don't even read the recommended levels for the DLC in official statements.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,710
I'm starting to notice the people on the opposite side of this argument don't actually read anything written. They take the first line and ignore everything else despite things they post right after being explained in the post they're responding to. They don't even read the recommended levels for the DLC in official statements.
Ironic, the one fandom that goes on and one about reading every minute scrap of text in their own game is incapable of reading a fucking forum post.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,258
I'm starting to notice the people on the opposite side of this argument don't actually read anything written. They take the first line and ignore everything else despite things they post right after being explained in the post they're responding to. They don't even read the recommended levels for the DLC in official statements.

Official message is you should start the dlc at 150-170. It's especially posted so people don't rush it and complain. Wtf is your point?
 

FugueLah

Scholar
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
165
A normal person doesn't stack buffs like this. Only an autist with a wiki does.
A normal person will use spirit ashes though.

Guys, bleeding weapons are the same as finding multiple hidden buffs and applying them all to a meta weapon outside the boss door before you kill a boss in 1 hit. Totally the same thing.
You have really set the bar incredibly low for how you expect players to cope with the game's challenges. These are the same players that have beaten Mogh btw. And if they needed help then, they will take help now. The DLC bosses are almost too easy. They may be aggro with long attack chains, but their HP is low and they are vulnerable to burst. Midra in particular is a nutty boss, but his health was too low cause much issue.
They have higher HP than the base game bosses.

This is why Lyric needed his own thread and to be thread banned from all From games to stop him being so retarded he derails every time he posts. Any one arguing "Bleed is a broken mechanic" doesn't understand why Bleed exists. From are stuck between autists like Lyric stacking all the buffs and used 2 handed colossals crying the game is too easy because they have to dodge like 5 attacks and skip multiple phases. People using 1 hand weapons and very few buffs having to hit a boss 10 times to get the same damage as one hit from a giant weapon were at a serious disadvantage. So From power crept the bosses to match how poorly balanced 2 handed strength builds are and bleed was buffed to make it so 5-10 small weapon hits give free bonus damage to catch up with the 2 handing twinks. It's the same reason the twinks don't understand why From games have so many buffs and it's not because they're expected to be stacked. Players aren't expected to find everything and no one does, so there are lots of buffs laying around so you can find one if you want one and find one that leans into your build. In Dark souls Power within was in a difficult to explore area with a difficult to fight monster in a some what happen path. It wasn't expected to be stacked with hurting yourself to get a red tear stone buff and melt bosses. If you think "Well why wouldn't I do that?" then you should ask yourself why you're playing these games at all because it's not to actually play them. If your objective is to skip as much content as possible you might as well never install the game or put it in your console since then you've 100% skipped everything and had about the same experience once you take the wikis ans busy work out of it if you're not cheating using pre-generated characters already which a lot of souls 'content creators' now are.

"Why wouldn't you stack all these buffs and miss half the game's content because you skip phases" is a stupid and obvious argument to dispel. Unlike some people I don't tie my ego to From games and have to look up guides to beat them as autistically as possible to keep from having a total melt down. I want to see the different boss phases and learn how to overcome them not just bursting the boss down. This new 'meta' of using save states at boss doors and stacking buffs so you burst a boss down but die in 1 hit is just a pathetic excuse for a game at this point. We all know it's what you're doing and you think you're hot shit with your 50 youtube subscribes but you're exactly what the Demon's souls community said was going to happen to the game series as it lost it's soul. There's no adventure any more, there's no personal growth or changing of tactics. There is just huge DPS numbers and hoping the boss doesn't do a fast attack in one of the five you need to dodge before it's dead. You can't even discuss the difficulty any more because of these people. From has always given you ways to cheese bosses and the community used to understand these were a cheese and weren't the normal way people played the game. People didn't play that way because the experience was more important then the victory. Finding YOUR path to beating a difficult boss rather than abusing exploits or using the game journo mode was what made these games unique and interesting. Now you have completely mongoloids trying to tell you the DLC isn't too hard and doesn't have problems because a boss dying in a couple of hits where many of them are done during a phase transition doesn't force them to face the actual problems the bosses present. You're not playing the game, you're cheesing the game and From hoped you were smart enough not to ruin your own experience but clearly you're not and want to broadcast that stupidity to the world instead.
They have more HP, but you also get a buff that when maxxed out will double your damage and halve your damage taken. Overall, if you are exploring, time to kill on bosses is much lower than Malenia or Mogh. You also get the +3 defensive talismans.

The only way I'll take your complaints with buff stacking and other meta strats seriously is if use spirit ashes. Because if you are intentionally gimping your progress by not using them, then you have no right to complain that you feel forced into buff stacking to do well. You will do even better with a spirit summon. Aside from Radahn, I cleared the DLC fine with no summons, and no buff stacking at 120-150. I did not feell compelled to look up a build at all.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,081
I'm starting to notice the people on the opposite side of this argument don't actually read anything written. They take the first line and ignore everything else despite things they post right after being explained in the post they're responding to. They don't even read the recommended levels for the DLC in official statements.

Official message is you should start the dlc at 150-170. It's especially posted so people don't rush it and complain. Wtf is your point?
It's actually 120-150. :smug:

The only way I'll take your complaints with buff stacking and other meta strats seriously is if use spirit ashes. Because if you are intentionally gimping your progress by not using them, then you have no right to complain that you feel forced into buff stacking to do well. You will do even better with a spirit summon. Aside from Radahn, I cleared the DLC fine with no summons, and no buff stacking at 120-150. I did not feell compelled to look up a build at all.
I have no issue with spirit ashes. The bosses are clearly designed around them and even npc summons due to the NPC quest lines involving summoning the bosses. From finally fixed the multiplayer AI where bosses can switch mid combo and change targets so you're no longer completely safe hitting their butthole for hours between aggro changes. If you fight the twin moon bitch you can see her swords constantly spaz out picking a target. My issue isn't using tools the game offers you, the issue is when you specifically stack them to the point where your damage is so high you effectively skip bosses. It's possible to 1 shot every boss in the DLC except for Radahn and Mesmer who have cut scenes to interrupt the damage they take. When you stack your damage so high you effectively skip bosses or major boss phases you're not playing the game any more. You're hitting it with a sledge hammer, which is such a widely different experience your opinion is invalid. So when you join a thread and start telling the people playing as intended everything they say is wrong because you can 1 shot the bosses and any problems you skip entirely aren't a problem because you can skip them you're just plain retarded. There's no point playing a modern From game if all you do is skip the bosses because they have no other content any more. Which is ultimately what the thread was discussing before an autist thought he'd get applauded for his 1 minute boss kill we all knew was possible but didn't think was worth doing because it ruins the experience.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,258
Link to the official message? I saw 150-170 mentioned a lot and thought it's from an official statement.

Ironic, the one fandom that goes on and one about reading every minute scrap of text in their own game is incapable of reading a fucking forum post.

Missed this gem. Reading info in a game is a lot more normal than stalking dev forums. But hey, no wonder you think everyone playing the game has a wiki/guide open.
 
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Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,081
Link to the official message? I saw 150-170 mentioned a lot and thought it's from an official statement.

Ironic, the one fandom that goes on and one about reading every minute scrap of text in their own game is incapable of reading a fucking forum post.

Missed this gem. Reading info in a game is a lot more normal than stalking dev forums. But hey, no wonder you think everyone playing the game has a wiki/guide open.
I don't think From have a dev forum, at least not in English. I've never interacted with Bandai Namco or From in that way. But you can easily spot the official numbers when every single person and website recommends the same level range. It's coming as part of their press packs with their early copies of the game. I bet they even come with pre-loaded saves ready to play the DLC with the way journos are.
 

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