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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
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57,441
The wiki shit is a massive cope. Nothing in the wiki is going to help you overcome the challenge. All the wikis do is spoil all the cryptic quests and secrets etc. They serve no purpose when it comes to the combat and there's not a whole lot that isn't explained in the item's descriptions that is going to vastly alter the game for anyone. It's also not impossible to figure out certain things of your own (like, if you want to know if buffs stack, just go check the stats screen after casting them sheesh. If your weapon damage doesn't go up, then they don't stack).
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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57,441
I still think the elemental phase moveset itself isn't really design with the mind of being skipped, because there is really not indications that it is like that.

My argument is that they are designed the way they are because they CAN be skipped. The better you do in the first phase, the less you gonna see of the elemental phases. I cannot imagine that isn't intentional.

Those kind of things aren't uncommon either. In the fight with Mohg, if you use the crystal tear that makes you immune to his Nihil phase, you can dish out so much damage you can basically outright bypass his second phase.

Again, i'm reasoning from the perspective of the "normal" player who is baffled by how unreasonably hard the elemental phases seem to be. If you combine that with the fact the boss is weak to rot or bleed, i don't think it's that strange to think for the "normal" player the intended way is to cheese the first phase as hard as possible so that you don't see any of the others.

The "pros" of course are more than welcome in trying to master the elemental phases and it seems most of them already have:



I think the argument at this point is whether it is a good idea to have a boss so hard only the "pros" can master. My counter argument would be all the bosses in Elden Ring and other Souls games are hard enough that only the pros can master them either way. By mastering them, i mean learning all the move sets so well you can basically take zero damage and avoid everything with ease. No normal player does that. People fumble, make mistakes, get knocked on their ass, and can only pull through by healing to recover from their errors. And what concession does this boss make for the average player? Guaranteed opportunities to heal in between phases, which suggests that IS the "intended" way for the normal player to deal with the elemental phases in the event they get that far. And because every phase gives you an opportunity to heal they basically allowed themselves to go all the way with the elemental phases in terms of spectacle and chaos.

I'm eager to see the other bosses to check out if my theory holds with them as well.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
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57,441
I'm starting to notice the people on the opposite side of this argument don't actually read anything written. They take the first line and ignore everything else despite things they post right after being explained in the post they're responding to. They don't even read the recommended levels for the DLC in official statements.
Ironic, the one fandom that goes on and one about reading every minute scrap of text in their own game is incapable of reading a fucking forum post.

Why would any of us want to read retardo though.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
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57,441

This is why Lyric needed his own thread and to be thread banned from all From games to stop him being so retarded he derails every time he posts

Oh yeah i forgot this thread is supposed to be YOUR personal space to screech and moan about how bad FromSoft is at making games. I'm sorry for intruding in what appears to be your own blog thread.
 
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Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,125
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
My argument is that they are designed the way they are because they CAN be skipped. The better you do in the first phase, the less you gonna see of the elemental phases. I cannot imagine that isn't intentional.
But that's not true, is it? I don't know for sure about the lion specifically, but most bosses shift into the second phase when you've taken them down past an HP breakpoint, so unless you've engineered the fight so as to do a big burst of damage right around the 60% mark of a boss's health or whatever, it doesn't matter how quickly you pile on the damage initially. All that matters to the length of the second phase is how much damage you do in the second phase, broadly speaking. You didn't just burst down the first phase, you burst down the entire boss. (Which, for the record, I think is perfectly legitimate, despite the screeching of morons who think a wiki is required to perform the RPG 101 behaviour of discovering simple synergies and buffing before a fight.)
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Messages
57,441
My argument is that they are designed the way they are because they CAN be skipped. The better you do in the first phase, the less you gonna see of the elemental phases. I cannot imagine that isn't intentional.
But that's not true, is it? I don't know for sure about the lion specifically, but most bosses shift into the second phase when you've taken them down past an HP breakpoint, so unless you've engineered the fight so as to do a big burst of damage right around the 60% mark of a boss's health or whatever, it doesn't matter how quickly you pile on the damage initially. All that matters to the length of the second phase is how much damage you do in the second phase, broadly speaking.

In my video, i burst him twice, first with the bleed proc and then with the critical hit after breaking his stance, both happening one after the other. By the time his lighting phase started, his health was already at 30%.

In the video of the "normal" guy with the two bleed katanas, the lighting phase begins at 50% health. If he had done better in the first phase, it would have been lower.

Meanwhile rot can help you during the elemental phases because it makes up for the damage a normal player would miss due to getting knocked over constantly etc (Radhan in the original game was weak to rot as well. This was not only about the "lore", but it was also because his second phase can lead to drawned out moments where the player is just running away with the horse, and in that case damage over time can make you feel you are still doing "something" even in those moments).

To me none of this feels strange. It's an RPG after all, why shouldn't there be "tactical" options for the player to take advantage of? Even more considering this is post-base game, with players carrying a vast number of gear with them they can use.

And to see the Codex of all places being so dismissal of this kind of thinking is just bizzare. Don't you guys play RPGs? When you are fighting a dragon in D&D, don't you lower his magic restances so your spells work? How is this any different (besides being vastly more simplistic than D&D)?

Also, don't you "stack" buffs with your priest in Baldur's Gate? Is that really such an esoteric concept only the "pros" can figure out?
 
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Hell Swarm

Learned
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Jun 16, 2023
Messages
1,725
The wiki shit is a massive cope. Nothing in the wiki is going to help you overcome the challenge. All the wikis do is spoil all the cryptic quests and secrets etc. They serve no purpose when it comes to the combat and there's not a whole lot that isn't explained in the item's descriptions that is going to vastly alter the game for anyone.
Objectively wrong. If a wiki points you to all the buffs and tells you where to find them it completely invalidates the challenge. We've proven that your buff stacking is skipping entire boss phases which is objectively making the fights easier. So if you use a wiki to solve all the stuff to get the rewards for it then stack those rewards you have a completely different difficulty level.

You keep trying to call yourself a pro, which is just sad. Is it trying to defend your ego when it's pointed out you're playing on game journo mode and not seeing half the content because of it?
 

Stoned Ape

Savant
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
806
Location
The belly of the whale
Hadn't actually played this for a while but eventually got around to poking Messmer with my pointed stick. It took me (who I reiterate is absolutely incompetent at the game) a grand total of five attempts before I impaled him often enough that he cursed his own mom and died.

I think I'm probably going to stick with the golden bling for a while. I'd love to wear the ridiculously OP Fire Knight Helm but the red hood looks awful with any of the heavy armour I currently have and I can't bring myself to mess up the look...

From-Software-Elden-Ring-From-Software-s-new-game-with-writing-by-GRRM-Page-739-rpgcodex-A.png


Currently have Barricade Shield set as my Ash of War to make up for not using the Fingerprint. Seems to be doing alright so far and can switch to 2-handing the spear if I need to use Black Flame Tornado. Can also medium roll with this gear if I need to in an emergency, which was useful as I found Messmer's AOEs difficult to avoid when fatrolling.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,441
If a wiki points you to all the buffs and tells you where to find them it completely invalidates the challenge.

There's like, five buffs in the whole game and none of them "invalidates" the challenge whatsoever. You are droning on this nonsense without understanding how any of this works and pretending even the most brain dead normie doesn't know how to find those supposed mythical "buffs" and wouldn't use them when found, without the "wiki".

It's an argument so stupid, so incredibly ignorant and inane it invalidates everything else you may have to say about the game.

I also didn't skip the boss with "buffs". If anything my approach was kinda gimped. The guy with the dual katanas got the boss down to 45% of health and he didn't even play that well. With the Flame Art infusion the Great Stars could only rely on its own innate bleed proc rate, which is fairly low (around 55). Also while Lion's Claw does massive damage it doesn't seem to do a whole lot of posture damage. Great Stars is also a strike weapon where as the boss is weak to piercing (which is why the "pros" all use poke weapons). It's also a slow weapon which wasn't ideal for such a fast boss and wasn't ideal to maximize bleed procs.

Lastly, my stat spread is unoptimized and thus i didn't actually maximize the damage potential of the weapon. Ongbal, who used a similar approach to mine, took basically around the same time except, given he did it as SL1 i should have been a lot faster, which shows my approach wasn't completely optimal.

In all of this, the damage boost i got from those very standard buffs i used was relatively unimportant. Golden Vow gives you 15% extra damage for 80 seconds, while Howl of Shabriri does 25% extra damage with a whopping 30% extra damage taken for a meager 40 seconds. I also actually lost some good damage by not switching to Misericorde for the critical hit because i had to chase the bleed proc.

What made my "burst" successful is not the damage i did but the fact i was able to maintain a steady stream of hits. What made it possible was my ability to master the first phase to the point i could just hammer at him without interruptions. Both the posture and bleed meters can go down quite fast if you don't keep the hits coming. This applies to all the "pros" out there. It's not the "buffs" nor the "colossal" weapons it's their mastery of the boss which allows them to keep the hits coming until the bosses fold prematurely.
 
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Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
1,725
I'm going to skip the rest of the post as you keep doing because you clearly did invalidate 2 phases of a boss through buff stacking and using a meta weapon. Anything you say is literally wrong and you're going to keep repeating it because of your tiny e-peen ego.
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
3,712
Nothing in the wiki is going to help you overcome the challenge.

"Knowing where to find the best weapons & ashes of war and where to acquire flask upgrades won't help struggling players."

s-l400.jpg


because of your tiny e-peen ego.

I seriously doubt that multi-page arguments starting over people being unimpressed by a youtube video could be attributed to ego.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Messages
20
Golden Vow is found right by the main path on the climb to Mt. Gelmir, basically impossible to miss. Howl of Shabriri is at the very conspicuous tower with a giant eyeball of fire at the frenzied flame village in Liurnia. Amost every physik tear is dropped by a miniboss in front of a Minor Erdtree (which are all literally illustrated at the in-game map).

Why are some people here acting like these are super obscure items that most "normal players" wouldn't know about? Besides, most "normal players" probably consult locations of items after or even by the end of the first playthrough, when they already have a general build in mind but don't want to scout the whole map and clear every minor dungeon again. You have a weird view of most of the playerbase if you think only a minority of tryhards do this.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
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Golden Vow is found right by the main path on the climb to Mt. Gelmir, basically impossible to miss. Howl of Shabriri is at the very conspicuous tower with a giant eyeball of fire at the frenzied flame village in Liurnia. Amost every physik tear is dropped by a miniboss in front of a Minor Erdtree (which are all literally illustrated at the in-game map).

Why are some people here acting like these are super obscure items that most "normal players" wouldn't know about? Besides, most "normal players" probably consult locations of items after or even by the end of the first playthrough, when they already have a general build in mind but don't want to scout the whole map and clear every minor dungeon again. You have a weird view of most of the playerbase if you think only a minority of tryhards do this.
Golden Vow is found in limgrave from a mounted knight actually.

You're vastly over estimating how these games are played. The majority of players are doing it blind because they don't know what they're looking for or don't want to spoil things. Why would you ever assume people are playing with guides? The vast majority are not.

I seriously doubt that multi-page arguments starting over people being unimpressed by a youtube video could be attributed to ego.
We both know what he's like. Him trying to call himself a pro over and over is all ego. He's trying to prove how much better he is at the DLC than the people who beat it already because he got laughed at for having wrong opinions on content he didn't play.
 

Vic

Savant
Undisputed Queen of Faggotry Bethestard
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as a non-souls player I watched Lyric's boss kill video (margit) and it didn't look impressive at all, looked like he cheesed the fight. Now I know it takes a lot of knowledge of the game to pull that off but it's still not something I would brag about
 
Joined
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Messages
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Golden Vow is found in limgrave from a mounted knight actually.
That's the inferior ash of war version. The spell version lasts longer and gives a bigger buff, is at Mt. Gelmir like I said.
You're vastly over estimating how these games are played. The majority of players are doing it blind because they don't know what they're looking for or don't want to spoil things. Why would you ever assume people are playing with guides? The vast majority are not.

For the first playthrough most play blind, yes. For a second one or returning in preparation for the release of the dlc? Probably not. ER was daily pulling +100k concurrent players for two weeks before the dlc even released, and I doubt most of those were first timers.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
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Golden Vow is found in limgrave from a mounted knight actually.
That's the inferior ash of war version. The spell version lasts longer and gives a bigger buff, is at Mt. Gelmir like I said.
You're vastly over estimating how these games are played. The majority of players are doing it blind because they don't know what they're looking for or don't want to spoil things. Why would you ever assume people are playing with guides? The vast majority are not.

For the first playthrough most play blind, yes. For a second one or returning in preparation for the release of the dlc? Probably not. ER was daily pulling +100k concurrent players for two weeks before the dlc even released, and I doubt most of those were first timers.
25 faith is not a small stat investment and most people don't build faith.

Most people don't play the game through a second time, if they even beat it the first time. And 100k is nothing compared to the 10 mil copies sold or whatever crazy number it was.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,441
25 faith is not a small stat investment and most people don't build faith.

There's also an ash of war even if that was true (which it isn't). None of this matters because a 15% bonus to damage for 80 seconds is neither an instant i win button nor it is even remotely a "pro" move, normal people apparently being uttetly unable to understand a basic concept like "buffing" in an RPG according to this demented argument.

It's clear to me that you are just grasping at straws and have been for quite a while. Your so called "normal" player doesn't actually exist. It's all a construct you have made up in your head to use as a last resort when all your other arguments have failed.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,441
as a non-souls player I watched Lyric's boss kill video (margit) and it didn't look impressive at all, looked like he cheesed the fight. Now I know it takes a lot of knowledge of the game to pull that off but it's still not something I would brag about

Yeah but look who's talking:

bethestard.png


The Morgott video you are talking about was posted as a reply to those who claim his movesets are "impossible". All i was attempting to do is show there is indeed a way, according to my general argument that this game is often more of a "puzzle" you have to solve than anything based on just blind reactions that require neither understanding of what is happening nor any knowledge of the tools the game puts are your disposal. Here's a video detailing some of the things you can do you may have missed as a case in point:



You have no right to call FromSoft's combat "unfair" if you don't even put the effort to understand it.

And if the argument is "well, a normal player wouldn't understand that", may i kindly suggest that normal players can go fuck themselves? Because that's an argument for decline and a call for the simplification and dumping down of games. If you have to always think of this supposed "normal" player you would never be able to make games with complex mechanics or any kind of advanced design. It's because of the "normal" player that we no longer have level design in shooters (boo hoo the old layout was too confusing to them. What if they get lost? Waaah). Is that really what you guys are advocating now? On the Codex of all places?
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
3,712
Yeah but look who's talking:

bethestard.png

It's not looking good when we've entered the "you played a Bethesda game for a couple of weeks and thought it was just okay, so actually you can't say you weren't impressed by my skills" section of the discussion. Worried about Frombros. We used to treat cheesing bosses as funny and well earned.

 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,652
Golden Vow is found right by the main path on the climb to Mt. Gelmir, basically impossible to miss. Howl of Shabriri is at the very conspicuous tower with a giant eyeball of fire at the frenzied flame village in Liurnia. Amost every physik tear is dropped by a miniboss in front of a Minor Erdtree (which are all literally illustrated at the in-game map).

Why are some people here acting like these are super obscure items that most "normal players" wouldn't know about? Besides, most "normal players" probably consult locations of items after or even by the end of the first playthrough, when they already have a general build in mind but don't want to scout the whole map and clear every minor dungeon again. You have a weird view of most of the playerbase if you think only a minority of tryhards do this.
When the game launched I completely skipped both items and it took me until I almost finished Liurnia to find Selene. The game is absolutely huge and without a guide it is absolutely a given that you will skip stacks of items. And here is the thing even if I found both of those buffs back in the first run I would never use them because I was doing a DEX build(Samurai starting class) that only later pivoted into INT. So these faith buffs would be completely useless to me.

Faith builds in general were not particularly great in the base game because it took them too long to get the basic bits and pieces of their kit. Hell the basic lightning spell is a drop from some wandering knight in a some corner of Liurnia. So there is very little incentive to focus on faith in the early game and even that requires either luck or wikis. Point being that for the vast majority of players anything faith related is most likely not going to be a part of their base kit because the very much discourages it early on.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,441
There are a lot of other kind of buffs. Besides Golden Vow, there's greases, weapon buffs, buffs from various consumables, buffs from talismans and crystal tears etc. The only reason Golden Vow is popular is that it can actually last long enough not to run out by the time you even get to swing at the boss. Flame, Grant Me Strength lasts 30 seconds which means it's already half-way finished by the time you even engage with the boss. Not worth it unless you have opportunities to use it during the battle, which is rarely the case and is more of a strategic option you have in certain situations.

Either way, none of those boosts will break the game for anyone. It's not enough to cast Golden Vow to stomp a boss. It's an immensely retarded argument and basically it's just grasping at straws, a very poorly thought out attempt at holding over this idea the game is impossible and unfair unless you rely on those arcane, esoteric tools only the "pros" know about, usually after reading a wiki (because apparently exploration is also too difficult to the "normal" player. Seems to me the normal player is just downright retarded at this point and shouldn't bother playing those kind of games). Esoteric tools like, you know, buffs, or consumables, shit that is common place to every single RPG that was ever made and is now standard even in a lot of action games since everything has to have "RPG elements" in them for some reason. For a player not to understand how buffs work in Elden Ring would have to be their first video game entirely, not just their first Souls game. It would have to be fucking gradma or something.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,081
Faith builds in general were not particularly great in the base game because it took them too long to get the basic bits and pieces of their kit. Hell the basic lightning spell is a drop from some wandering knight in a some corner of Liurnia. So there is very little incentive to focus on faith in the early game and even that requires either luck or wikis. Point being that for the vast majority of players anything faith related is most likely not going to be a part of their base kit because the very much discourages it early on.

Here we go again with moving the goal posts and blah blah blah bullshit blah blah blah wiki/luck/whatever.
How about you kill your first crucible knight and want to use that awesome tail incantation? Or getting the heart of Agheel and seeing those yummy dragon incantations? Faith is good (or you might say broken) from start to end, noob friendly and extremely versatile.

You keep arguing about normal players but your experiences are those of self limiting souls tryhards while normal players have fun cruising through the game with op cool shit.
 

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