From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Hell Swarm]

I'm going to skip the rest of the post as you keep doing because you clearly did invalidate 2 phases of a boss through buff stacking and using a meta weapon. Anything you say is literally wrong and you're going to keep repeating it because of your tiny e-peen ego.

 

[Silverfish]

Nothing in the wiki is going to help you overcome the challenge.

"Knowing where to find the best weapons & ashes of war and where to acquire flask upgrades won't help struggling players."

because of your tiny e-peen ego.

I seriously doubt that multi-page arguments starting over people being unimpressed by a youtube video could be attributed to ego.

 

[Remain Nameless]

Golden Vow is found right by the main path on the climb to Mt. Gelmir, basically impossible to miss. Howl of Shabriri is at the very conspicuous tower with a giant eyeball of fire at the frenzied flame village in Liurnia. Amost every physik tear is dropped by a miniboss in front of a Minor Erdtree (which are all literally illustrated at the in-game map).

Why are some people here acting like these are super obscure items that most "normal players" wouldn't know about? Besides, most "normal players" probably consult locations of items after or even by the end of the first playthrough, when they already have a general build in mind but don't want to scout the whole map and clear every minor dungeon again. You have a weird view of most of the playerbase if you think only a minority of tryhards do this.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Golden Vow is found right by the main path on the climb to Mt. Gelmir, basically impossible to miss. Howl of Shabriri is at the very conspicuous tower with a giant eyeball of fire at the frenzied flame village in Liurnia. Amost every physik tear is dropped by a miniboss in front of a Minor Erdtree (which are all literally illustrated at the in-game map).

Why are some people here acting like these are super obscure items that most "normal players" wouldn't know about? Besides, most "normal players" probably consult locations of items after or even by the end of the first playthrough, when they already have a general build in mind but don't want to scout the whole map and clear every minor dungeon again. You have a weird view of most of the playerbase if you think only a minority of tryhards do this.

Golden Vow is found in limgrave from a mounted knight actually.

You're vastly over estimating how these games are played. The majority of players are doing it blind because they don't know what they're looking for or don't want to spoil things. Why would you ever assume people are playing with guides? The vast majority are not.

I seriously doubt that multi-page arguments starting over people being unimpressed by a youtube video could be attributed to ego.

We both know what he's like. Him trying to call himself a pro over and over is all ego. He's trying to prove how much better he is at the DLC than the people who beat it already because he got laughed at for having wrong opinions on content he didn't play.

 

[Vic]

as a non-souls player I watched Lyric's boss kill video (margit) and it didn't look impressive at all, looked like he cheesed the fight. Now I know it takes a lot of knowledge of the game to pull that off but it's still not something I would brag about

 

[Remain Nameless]

Golden Vow is found in limgrave from a mounted knight actually.

That's the inferior ash of war version. The spell version lasts longer and gives a bigger buff, is at Mt. Gelmir like I said.

You're vastly over estimating how these games are played. The majority of players are doing it blind because they don't know what they're looking for or don't want to spoil things. Why would you ever assume people are playing with guides? The vast majority are not.

For the first playthrough most play blind, yes. For a second one or returning in preparation for the release of the dlc? Probably not. ER was daily pulling +100k concurrent players for two weeks before the dlc even released, and I doubt most of those were first timers.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Golden Vow is found in limgrave from a mounted knight actually.

That's the inferior ash of war version. The spell version lasts longer and gives a bigger buff, is at Mt. Gelmir like I said.

You're vastly over estimating how these games are played. The majority of players are doing it blind because they don't know what they're looking for or don't want to spoil things. Why would you ever assume people are playing with guides? The vast majority are not.

For the first playthrough most play blind, yes. For a second one or returning in preparation for the release of the dlc? Probably not. ER was daily pulling +100k concurrent players for two weeks before the dlc even released, and I doubt most of those were first timers.

25 faith is not a small stat investment and most people don't build faith.

Most people don't play the game through a second time, if they even beat it the first time. And 100k is nothing compared to the 10 mil copies sold or whatever crazy number it was.

 

[Reinhardt]

The wiki shit is a massive cope. Nothing in the wiki is going to help you overcome the challenge.

i don't know which wiki are you using but i just opened russian one and it literally lists all bosses attacks and how to avoid them

 

[Lyric Suite]

25 faith is not a small stat investment and most people don't build faith.

There's also an ash of war even if that was true (which it isn't). None of this matters because a 15% bonus to damage for 80 seconds is neither an instant i win button nor it is even remotely a "pro" move, normal people apparently being uttetly unable to understand a basic concept like "buffing" in an RPG according to this demented argument.

It's clear to me that you are just grasping at straws and have been for quite a while. Your so called "normal" player doesn't actually exist. It's all a construct you have made up in your head to use as a last resort when all your other arguments have failed.

 

[Lyric Suite]

as a non-souls player I watched Lyric's boss kill video (margit) and it didn't look impressive at all, looked like he cheesed the fight. Now I know it takes a lot of knowledge of the game to pull that off but it's still not something I would brag about

Yeah but look who's talking:

The Morgott video you are talking about was posted as a reply to those who claim his movesets are "impossible". All i was attempting to do is show there is indeed a way, according to my general argument that this game is often more of a "puzzle" you have to solve than anything based on just blind reactions that require neither understanding of what is happening nor any knowledge of the tools the game puts are your disposal. Here's a video detailing some of the things you can do you may have missed as a case in point:



You have no right to call FromSoft's combat "unfair" if you don't even put the effort to understand it.

And if the argument is "well, a normal player wouldn't understand that", may i kindly suggest that normal players can go fuck themselves? Because that's an argument for decline and a call for the simplification and dumping down of games. If you have to always think of this supposed "normal" player you would never be able to make games with complex mechanics or any kind of advanced design. It's because of the "normal" player that we no longer have level design in shooters (boo hoo the old layout was too confusing to them. What if they get lost? Waaah). Is that really what you guys are advocating now? On the Codex of all places?

 

[Stoned Ape]

Yeah but look who's talking:

That does say all that needs saying.

None of Bethesda's games have ever had anything approaching even average combat mechanics, and the last game they released with interesting art design was Morrowind.

 

[Vic]

That does say all that needs saying.

all that this is saying is how corrupt the codex administration is and that the jew is trying to extort money from me, which he will never see

 

[Silverfish]

Yeah but look who's talking:

It's not looking good when we've entered the "you played a Bethesda game for a couple of weeks and thought it was just okay, so actually you can't say you weren't impressed by my skills" section of the discussion. Worried about Frombros. We used to treat cheesing bosses as funny and well earned.

 

[Ravielsk]

Golden Vow is found right by the main path on the climb to Mt. Gelmir, basically impossible to miss. Howl of Shabriri is at the very conspicuous tower with a giant eyeball of fire at the frenzied flame village in Liurnia. Amost every physik tear is dropped by a miniboss in front of a Minor Erdtree (which are all literally illustrated at the in-game map).

Why are some people here acting like these are super obscure items that most "normal players" wouldn't know about? Besides, most "normal players" probably consult locations of items after or even by the end of the first playthrough, when they already have a general build in mind but don't want to scout the whole map and clear every minor dungeon again. You have a weird view of most of the playerbase if you think only a minority of tryhards do this.

When the game launched I completely skipped both items and it took me until I almost finished Liurnia to find Selene. The game is absolutely huge and without a guide it is absolutely a given that you will skip stacks of items. And here is the thing even if I found both of those buffs back in the first run I would never use them because I was doing a DEX build(Samurai starting class) that only later pivoted into INT. So these faith buffs would be completely useless to me.

Faith builds in general were not particularly great in the base game because it took them too long to get the basic bits and pieces of their kit. Hell the basic lightning spell is a drop from some wandering knight in a some corner of Liurnia. So there is very little incentive to focus on faith in the early game and even that requires either luck or wikis. Point being that for the vast majority of players anything faith related is most likely not going to be a part of their base kit because the very much discourages it early on.

 

[Lyric Suite]

There are a lot of other kind of buffs. Besides Golden Vow, there's greases, weapon buffs, buffs from various consumables, buffs from talismans and crystal tears etc. The only reason Golden Vow is popular is that it can actually last long enough not to run out by the time you even get to swing at the boss. Flame, Grant Me Strength lasts 30 seconds which means it's already half-way finished by the time you even engage with the boss. Not worth it unless you have opportunities to use it during the battle, which is rarely the case and is more of a strategic option you have in certain situations.

Either way, none of those boosts will break the game for anyone. It's not enough to cast Golden Vow to stomp a boss. It's an immensely retarded argument and basically it's just grasping at straws, a very poorly thought out attempt at holding over this idea the game is impossible and unfair unless you rely on those arcane, esoteric tools only the "pros" know about, usually after reading a wiki (because apparently exploration is also too difficult to the "normal" player. Seems to me the normal player is just downright retarded at this point and shouldn't bother playing those kind of games). Esoteric tools like, you know, buffs, or consumables, shit that is common place to every single RPG that was ever made and is now standard even in a lot of action games since everything has to have "RPG elements" in them for some reason. For a player not to understand how buffs work in Elden Ring would have to be their first video game entirely, not just their first Souls game. It would have to be fucking gradma or something.

 

[abija]

Faith builds in general were not particularly great in the base game because it took them too long to get the basic bits and pieces of their kit. Hell the basic lightning spell is a drop from some wandering knight in a some corner of Liurnia. So there is very little incentive to focus on faith in the early game and even that requires either luck or wikis. Point being that for the vast majority of players anything faith related is most likely not going to be a part of their base kit because the very much discourages it early on.

Here we go again with moving the goal posts and blah blah blah bullshit blah blah blah wiki/luck/whatever.
How about you kill your first crucible knight and want to use that awesome tail incantation? Or getting the heart of Agheel and seeing those yummy dragon incantations? Faith is good (or you might say broken) from start to end, noob friendly and extremely versatile.

You keep arguing about normal players but your experiences are those of self limiting souls tryhards while normal players have fun cruising through the game with op cool shit.

 

[Lyric Suite]

"Knowing where to find the best weapons & ashes of war and where to acquire flask upgrades won't help struggling players."

If you are missing flask upgrades you are not worth talking to (they are literally in the fucking way), and "best weapons" is a relative thing. One of the absolute best ashes of war in the game can be found two seconds in, from a merchant you can find after 30 seconds exploration from the main starting point:

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Broadsword

This is what Square Off looks like in action:



And this is what it looks like against the Dancing Lion:



From a non-pro no less. If i had used this instead of my Lion's Claw (which i picked becase you know, lion against lion) set up it would have taken me even less to kill the boss, and yet it's basically a starter weapon. Using a strike weapon with slow wind up attacks was a conscious choice on my part NOT to make the fight as easy as i could have made it if i had used a piercing weapon with tons of posture damage, which is what all the "pros" are using. You guys have absolutely zero understanding of what's going on in this game.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, the fact you can do the above is why bosses in Elden Ring are designed the way they are. Because you have unusually powerful ways to break bosses the bosses on their part have ways that make any vanilla Souls approach harder than normal, but then it's your mistake in assuming this is Dark Souls when it clearly says Elden Ring in the name.

And for the record, i'm not saying it is impossible they could go overboard with making the game harder and harder, but the very fact that they keep doing that in the age of popamole and decline it's remarkable in itself. There was NO financial reason for why they had to make this DLC even harder. The fact they are commited to this to this point shows they have a complete dedication to their design principles. For all the screeching about how they went "mainstream" with Elden Ring it's definitely amusing that with this DLC they even managed to enrage the pros.

 

[Silverfish]

Either way, none of those boosts will break the game for anyone.

No, of course not.

 

[Vic]

^ heh

Lyric Suite seems like you still have much to learn, newb

 

[Lyric Suite]

Either way, none of those boosts will break the game for anyone.

No, of course not.

Well, not any of them taken in isolation. All Souls games can be broken (actually, all games can be broken when it comes down to it) that is neither here nor there.

The question is whether a normal combination of buffs and gear is somehow beyond the understanding of the average player, or is against the "rules" somehow, which appears to be part of the argument as well.

For the most part, the game is geared towards maximing a particular approach. Now some approaches work better in different situations. The secret then is to simply find out what works best in what context. In some cases, some counters can even trivialize bosses as an actual intended effect:



The most glaring case in point being the Revenant who can literally be disintegrated with healing spells to the point you doin't even have to fight him. The Revenant in fact exemplifies my argument that the reason bosses in Elden Ring are designed to be so unresonably hard is that you are EXPECTED to use counters. His moveset is among the single most confusing one in the game, but he also happens to have the single strongest counter of any enemy out there. Coincidence? Probably not, right?

Your "normal" player strawman isn't someone who doesn't like stacking up 50 buffs after switching out gear on the fly within the span of seconds like the guy i posted who swatted Malenia out in one hit:



The normal player is someone who will favor a particular approach (sometimes following a rolelaying concept, which is something i do all the time myself) and try to stick with it at all times. He is not so dump as not to understand how to use the right talismans or how to use buffs and any other kind of boosting. The average player isn't someone who doesn't know how to find gear in the world, or is incapable of getting a basic grasp of how things work.

My suspicion is that for the most part the problem with the average player is that they find a way to do things and like to stick with it until the end. This may have worked well in Dark Souls (maybe) but it's not how Elden Ring is set up.

My suggestion to the average player is keep in hand a variety of tactics and to adapt to the situation instead of trying to stick to one way even when it's clearly not working. It is not an unreasonable thing to ask even for a novice for instance to try different damage types if the one you are using isn't working that well. This kind of strategizing is standard fair for an RPG i don't see why it should be so difficult to grasp for anyone.

As for the wiki shit. All those games are designed with multiple playthroughs in mind. If you want to spoil everything you can most certainly read a wiki. The intended way however is to just discover things as you go, which i would hope would involve a bit of trial and error as well along the way. Now, the problem with this DLC is that it's designed with the assumption people already did that in the base game, which is a correct assumption to make meaning your argument people wouldn't know about stuff like Golden Vow THIS fucking late in the process, after two years the base game has been out and with people having presumably done multiple playthroughs is just too absurd to even contemplate.

 

[Ravielsk]

Here we go again with moving the goal posts and blah blah blah bullshit blah blah blah wiki/luck/whatever.
How about you kill your first crucible knight and want to use that awesome tail incantation? Or getting the heart of Agheel and seeing those yummy dragon incantations? Faith is good (or you might say broken) from start to end, noob friendly and extremely versatile.

You keep arguing about normal players but your experiences are those of self limiting souls tryhards while normal players have fun cruising through the game with op cool shit.

First off abija you are talking to two people here. To move the goal post it has to be the person who first set it in place, I cannot move the goal post for Hell Swarm or Lyric Suite or anyone else on the forum.

Second off you are yet again assuming that people, especially when the game launched(because that is the frame of reference I used), were just beating the two most difficult starting bosses and that they had the catalyst to even cast said spells to begin with. On top of that with the dragon incantations you need to invest into arcane and to get to the altar which is accessible only through a cave dungeon which I, in my first playthrough, simply did not stumble upon until later.
Hence my point that the average player who is not playing with a wiki open would not exactly be incentivized to go into a faith build.


Plus when did I say anything about self-imposed challenge? I never wrote that I CHOOSE to not use miracles. I wrote that my character was stat wise not a faith build because as a samurai I had very good reasons to go into dexterity and later I started investing into INT. Where in that statement did I say anything about refusing or challenging my self to anything?

 

[Hell Swarm]

Faith builds in general were not particularly great in the base game because it took them too long to get the basic bits and pieces of their kit. Hell the basic lightning spell is a drop from some wandering knight in a some corner of Liurnia. So there is very little incentive to focus on faith in the early game and even that requires either luck or wikis. Point being that for the vast majority of players anything faith related is most likely not going to be a part of their base kit because the very much discourages it early on.

Here we go again with moving the goal posts and blah blah blah bullshit blah blah blah wiki/luck/whatever.
How about you kill your first crucible knight and want to use that awesome tail incantation? Or getting the heart of Agheel and seeing those yummy dragon incantations? Faith is good (or you might say broken) from start to end, noob friendly and extremely versatile.

You keep arguing about normal players but your experiences are those of self limiting souls tryhards while normal players have fun cruising through the game with op cool shit.

The goal posts haven't been moved. The most common Elden Ring build was dex/arcane because bleed is an obvious source of high damage and the samurai is basically a knight class which was previously the most popular class to pick for newbies. Human fighter is the generic RPG character of choice and we're seeing the same choice made in Elden ring. So your starting 'bonus' stats are 9/8/8 and that means not a lot of magic is in your future unless you specifically spec for something, which is unlikely to happen when you need to level 4 stats (Health, mana, dex and stamina) to get your character functional. So by the time you have the stats to use magic items you're already deep into the game. And faith is seen as lightning spear + healing, and it's buffs are generally forgotten.

The normal player experience isn't being a tryhard, it's playing an open world game where it's very easy to miss entire locations let alone since items. Dropping from a hard early game enemy you're likely to run past and have no reason to revisit makes something quite hidden. The game having so many useless pick ups and the same item 3 times but slightly different isn't helping either. What sort of res.. I mean grease do you apply? There's different versions and how does a new player know what a boss is weak to? So they're unlikely to use any unless it's blindingly obvious like a wooden boss weak to fire.

You have to remember Elden ring is not an RPG, it's an action game with RPG elements. This isn't final fantasy where obvious menu options say "buff your weapon for a higher attack". Every item has a wall of text attached to it no one should care about and it's often risky to check items when you first time them and it interrupts the gameplay. These things really matter because even as an experienced player I didn't check 99% of the stuff I picked up because I had -my- build and I didn't need to change anything except the weapon when I reached the final boss gauntlet. I might try it on and push R1 a few times but I wasn't going to go collect a bunch of upgrade material (and don't say the mines are obvious because they're on the map. The map doesn't tell you what the red blobs are).

 

[Strange Fellow]

And faith is seen as lightning spear + healing, and it's buffs are generally forgotten.

By the mentally disabled dumbfuck you've made up.

Dropping from a hard early game enemy you're likely to run past and have no reason to revisit makes something quite hidden.

Of course you'd revisit a hard early game enemy. Anyone would, to exact revenge or just see what sort of cool shit he drops.

What sort of res.. I mean grease do you apply? There's different versions and how does a new player know what a boss is weak to?

I assume the process of "apply buff, observe what sort of damage you do" is the realm of autists with guides?

I might try it on and push R1 a few times but I wasn't going to go collect a bunch of upgrade material (and don't say the mines are obvious because they're on the map. The map doesn't tell you what the red blobs are).

By the end of the game you can buy every upgrade material. I have several weapons I found in the DLC that I've barely used yet fully upgraded, which I might come back to. As for "The map doesn't tell you what the red blobs are", it is very easy to observe that mines you've discovered correspond to the map icons. It doesn't have to tell you, basic human pattern recognition takes care of it.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The average player according to Hell Swarm: