Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Europa Universalis IV

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,131
Unless I remember wrong, HOI 3 had that.

Vicky 2 definitely had terrain and tech for combat width. Tech affected your base width while terrain modified that (mountains reduced you to 1/3rd of base width IIRC).

Can't say I understand why tech is supposed to reduce combat width. If anything it should increase it, letting you bring more units to effectively attack at once. And the fact that it decreases the width of your enemies as well is ridiculous, why does your tech mean less of them can fight at once? Silly way to make europeans rape natives harder.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Combat changes sound awesome to me. Shatter + Disorganise basically removes ping-pong, and mirrors real life combat in the sense that you couldn't pack up the day after a pitched battle then chase them down to press your marginal numerical advantage 10 times over. It does depend on siege times, though - I can imagine a situation where you win a decisive battle, it takes them 2-3 months to retreat 3 provinces then return, but that still wasn't enough for you to win a siege, so you have to fight them off again, etc., and you can't really chase after them. I suppose that also mirrors real life better, but just hoping it doesn't create a different form of ping-pong.

Slower, costly reinforcement & lower manpower also makes a big difference, and it's something a lot of EU2/3 mods have been doing to good effect.

Really looking forward to this.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,650
Location
Poland
Game starts in 1444 so I guess we can safely say that an 1410 castille-muscovy alliance is out of the question.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,057
Location
NZ
I don't think I've used mercenaries once in EUII or III. This stands sharply in contrast to CKII where they're very useful and often even vital until your kingdom reaches a large size.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,131
Combat changes sound awesome to me. Shatter + Disorganise basically removes ping-pong, and mirrors real life combat in the sense that you couldn't pack up the day after a pitched battle then chase them down to press your marginal numerical advantage 10 times over. It does depend on siege times, though - I can imagine a situation where you win a decisive battle, it takes them 2-3 months to retreat 3 provinces then return, but that still wasn't enough for you to win a siege, so you have to fight them off again, etc., and you can't really chase after them. I suppose that also mirrors real life better, but just hoping it doesn't create a different form of ping-pong.

Slower, costly reinforcement & lower manpower also makes a big difference, and it's something a lot of EU2/3 mods have been doing to good effect.

Really looking forward to this.

I hope we don't have sieges that last years anymore. UK can pack up their regiments in the homeland and get all the way to australia before a siege is over.

I don't think I've used mercenaries once in EUII or III. This stands sharply in contrast to CKII where they're very useful and often even vital until your kingdom reaches a large size.

With the beta's heavy manpower nerf they can be useful for small nations or nations that need manpower fast.
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
6,657
Location
Rape
I don't think I've used mercenaries once in EUII or III. This stands sharply in contrast to CKII where they're very useful and often even vital until your kingdom reaches a large size.
I only used them in vanilla EU3 to soften up enemy armies or keep them down until my main forces arrived.

They were only useful for gamey shit like that.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,131
what about bringing numbers and assaulting? never tried that?

Now you are fighting a country with 20 provinces. You still need to siege 19, and they still take years.

And yeah, anything beyond lvl 2 forts is useless to assault. Not that I've ever even played the game long enough to see lvl 2 forts.
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
6,657
Location
Rape
what about bringing numbers and assaulting? never tried that?

I like to LARP as a enlightened monarch so I loathe grinding the seeds of the Kingdom for a few months of peace.

What if the would-be level 5 philosopher dies in a ill-concieved plot? I wouldnt be able to live with myself

Fuck that. One does not deal with the Sranc, one kills the Sranc.
Be like the Nansur Emperors, slaughter everything including your own legions. Their blood will pave the way for glory and prosperity.
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
6,657
Location
Rape
what about bringing numbers and assaulting? never tried that?

I like to LARP as a enlightened monarch so I loathe grinding the seeds of the Kingdom for a few months of peace.

What if the would-be level 5 philosopher dies in a ill-concieved plot? I wouldnt be able to live with myself

Fuck that. One does not deal with the Sranc, one kills the Sranc.
Be like the Nansur Emperors, slaughter everything including your own legions. Their blood will pave the way for glory and prosperity.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
How many level 4+ forts were there on the field in EU3? I don't recall it being a common occurance, although they certainly were difficult to capture when you did come across them.
 

Borelli

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
1,302
Game starts in 1444 so I guess we can safely say that an 1410 castille-muscovy alliance is out of the question.
In before expansion extending start date to 1400 something to please byzfags.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
How many level 4+ forts were there on the field in EU3? I don't recall it being a common occurance, although they certainly were difficult to capture when you did come across them.
Level 4 is the inevitable standard fort in the civilized world around the period when Imperialism CBs start being thrown about. Lv 5 and Lv 6 are the exceptions that the last expansion had as the province speciality building you could pick.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,650
Location
Poland
Game starts in 1444 so I guess we can safely say that an 1410 castille-muscovy alliance is out of the question.
In before expansion extending start date to 1400 something to please byzfags.

They cant expand the timeline in the other way since it goes into the revolutionary era and that means huge armies and events that cant be feasibly represented in the same game as renaissance. So yes, most likely target for expansion is 1356 or sometime after.
 

pan

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
214
I've never played long enough to see level four forts, so I cannot say that I've had bad experiences with them. Perhaps this is why I think they're perfectly dandy, in any case I do not appreciate the arguments levied against them.

Their inclusion is necessitated by gameplay concerns. Without forts and their obligatory lengthy sieges the game would be unbalanced in all sorts of ways. The player could abuse the AI, by distracting it with one half of his army while running around with the rest, capturing all of it's regions with ease. The AI's wars against itself would become chaotic flashes, as one country would simply overpower the other and proceed to dismantle it in a narrow space of time. This is just speculation, but undoubtedly the designers found good reason for designing the siege mechanics the way they did.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,131
I've never played long enough to see level four forts, so I cannot say that I've had bad experiences with them. Perhaps this is why I think they're perfectly dandy, in any case I do not appreciate the arguments levied against them.

Their inclusion is necessitated by gameplay concerns. Without forts and their obligatory lengthy sieges the game would be unbalanced in all sorts of ways. The player could abuse the AI, by distracting it with one half of his army while running around with the rest, capturing all of it's regions with ease. The AI's wars against itself would become chaotic flashes, as one country would simply overpower the other and proceed to dismantle it in a narrow space of time. This is just speculation, but undoubtedly the designers found good reason for designing the siege mechanics the way they did.

Other way around. When Castille fights France and loses, it's army loses in the first 5 months. Then for the next several years it's forts are sieged, it's war exhaustion is maxed out, it's getting no income, and it's stability goes to negative 3. Nearly a decade after the war was really lost Castille finally capitulates and gives France one province. It then takes another half decade of zero income and revolts everywhere to recover to the point where it can actually do something.

The AI was already fixed in recent patches not to let you put 1 man on all their forts while they siege one province with their whole army. The AI pulls their army back and wipes you out as soon as it sees you doing that. And in any case, Paradox hasn't exactly proven themselves to be masters of balancing the game, so let's not waste ourselves on appeals to authority here.

A good idea might be to reduce the siege time as war exhaustion accrues. 20+ exhaustion should practically give up as soon as your army arrives.
 

pan

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
214
I've never played long enough to see level four forts, so I cannot say that I've had bad experiences with them. Perhaps this is why I think they're perfectly dandy, in any case I do not appreciate the arguments levied against them.

Their inclusion is necessitated by gameplay concerns. Without forts and their obligatory lengthy sieges the game would be unbalanced in all sorts of ways. The player could abuse the AI, by distracting it with one half of his army while running around with the rest, capturing all of it's regions with ease. The AI's wars against itself would become chaotic flashes, as one country would simply overpower the other and proceed to dismantle it in a narrow space of time. This is just speculation, but undoubtedly the designers found good reason for designing the siege mechanics the way they did.

Other way around. When Castille fights France and loses, it's army loses in the first 5 months. Then for the next several years it's forts are sieged, it's war exhaustion is maxed out, it's getting no income, and it's stability goes to negative 3. Nearly a decade after the war was really lost Castille finally capitulates and gives France one province. It then takes another half decade of zero income and revolts everywhere to recover to the point where it can actually do something.

The AI was already fixed in recent patches not to let you put 1 man on all their forts while they siege one province with their whole army. The AI pulls their army back and wipes you out as soon as it sees you doing that. And in any case, Paradox hasn't exactly proven themselves to be masters of balancing the game, so let's not waste ourselves on appeals to authority here.

A good idea might be to reduce the siege time as war exhaustion accrues. 20+ exhaustion should practically give up as soon as your army arrives.

In your example, is the fault not with the warscore system rather than the siege system? Regardless of how sieges are handled, the issue seems to be that Castille will continue to fight, at major expense, despite having no hope of victory.

I like the war exhaustion idea though. I forget whether it already has an effect on morale, but if it doesn't then it should.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom