Europa Universalis IV

[XenomorphII]

Byzantine wasn't even a thing until well after the fall of Constantinople, they were called that by later historians. They called themselves, and were called by others at the time the Romans. The nobility that "restored" the empire after the 4th Crusade, was the same nobility that had largely been involved prior to it. Rome had Hellenized not long after it conquered Greece. The BE was the Eastern part of the empire that kept going after the West fell.

In EUIV they should be the long shot that they are. Only through freak chance, through massive intervention, or through being played well(which effectively makes their ruler leaps and bounds better than the Ottoman ruler, a massive genius for the ages for several hundred years compared to a string of bumpkins) should they ever survive. Constantinople doesn't really need special modifiers, as the walls were in bad shape at that point and any advantage they might have offered would be lost within decades of the start. Memhed was careful, because he had been forced to lift sieges of the city before, and wanted to do this one quick and without anything going wrong, and he did just that (by and large).

 

[Reject_666_6]

What's so surprising about people hating the ERE? You'd think that over a millennium of propaganda, delegitimisation and overall distrust from the West would have just that effect. It doesn't even matter whether the distrust was justified (it was, on both sides), the problem lies with taking these biased descriptions at face value. Maybe some of you should read some modern historiography on the subject, instead of hearsay from Edward Gibbon and his ilk.

 

[Delterius]

Hipsters Roma died with Romulus. Never again.

 

[oscar]

It's interesting how the ERE either attracts Byzantophiles in love with it as the greatest state in history and brilliant in culture, science, architecture, art, administration and military organisation or is despised as a corrupt and perpetually declining rotten empire of scheming effeminates.

 

[anus_pounder]

So...EUIV...pretty cool game, eh?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

There's not really much question that Byzantium was a Greek state by the time Paradox games take place. Greek had fully displaced Latin as the language, religious sermon was held in Greek (contrast with the Roman Catholic Church, which has a far more direct succession from the Roman churches in this regard), and the people were predominantly Greek in traditional Greek regions. It's much more accurate to call Byzantine Empire a Hellenic successor state of the Roman Empire than a direct continuation of the Roman Empire.

For context Vaarna was also arguing that Byzantium should receive special penalties in Crusader Kings II, a game that starts as early as 867, for almost verbatim reasoning that he employed in that thread.

I'm not a Byzantium fanboy but the guy just seems to dislike Byzantium. His argument is a little less ridiculous here though admittedly.

The problem is generally speaking that Byzantium is far too stable in CK2. Historically Byzantium was in an accelerating downward spiral almost all the way from grand campaign start in CK2, and this does NOT happen if the player isn't involved all the way. Aside from BE de jure being too large and thus increasing their stability considerably, an additional problem is the lack of any sort of mechanic to represent the burden of the Byzantine bureaucracy, the internal strife, and the increasing decay of Imperial authority and military power. Ideally Byzantium would have a variation of the Decadence mechanic (that does not involve mysterious camel raiders) to represent this and the temporary upswings in their fortunes.

 

[Delterius]

I like byzantium for the same reason I love granada. Never in the actual EU game will your great Empire face a terrible setback while these factions have all this "revenge and setting rights from wrongs" going for them. Roman continuity is the icing on the cake.

 

[Grinolf]

There's not really much question that Byzantium was a Greek state by the time Paradox games take place. Greek had fully displaced Latin as the language, religious sermon was held in Greek (contrast with the Roman Catholic Church, which has a far more direct succession from the Roman churches in this regard), and the people were predominantly Greek in traditional Greek regions. It's much more accurate to call Byzantine Empire a Hellenic successor state of the Roman Empire than a direct continuation of the Roman Empire.

Even if we ignore such insignificant thing, that grek language wasn't uncommon in Rome even before it became an Empire, by your logic ERE at start of ruling Heraclius was a direct continuation of Roman Empere, and ERE at the end of his ruling was just "Hellenic successor state." Suprisingly that didn't have a much sence.

Historically Byzantium was in an accelerating downward spiral almost all the way from grand campaign start in CK2

So ERE was "in an accelerating downward spiral" for almost 600 years? That's like more, than most of the modern countries even existed in the world. Some could claim, that the idea of a country existing for a such long time in the state of decline, while being constantly surrounded by enemies from all sides, is just plain retarded. But what they understand in history?

 

[Malakal]

I like byzantium for the same reason I love granada. Never in the actual EU game will your great Empire face a terrible setback while these factions have all this "revenge and setting rights from wrongs" going for them. Roman continuity is the icing on the cake.

Thats a valid point and the same reason I enjoy playing BE. But please don't try to convince me that state had anything in common with Rome. Hellenic successor state, as Vaarna calls it, seems accurate.

 

[oscar]

Historically Byzantium was in an accelerating downward spiral almost all the way from grand campaign start in CK2

That is simply outright wrong. Are you even broadly familiar with Byzantine history? The ERE was booming from 867–1057 (Macedon Dynasty) and 1081 to 1180 (Komenian Restoration).

It's ridiculous to assert that Byzantium was doomed or in a downwards spiral in 867 or 1066. In fact both dates see it soon to be on the incline after a period of weakness.

The problem is generally speaking that Byzantium is far too stable in CK2.

I can't remember the last game I had that featured a strong Byzantium. Most of the time for me they end up beaten by Muslims after only a century or two in-game and then re-conquered by Catholic Crusade.

temporary upswings in their fortunes

In a game that lasts 600 years a good 300 years of them being an economic and military superpower is only 'temporary'?

 

[Delterius]

But please don't try to convince me that state had anything in common with Rome.

You want to emphasize the differences and the passage of time that the Roman Empire faced, which is all fine. But I'd propose something else, why not think a bit about how the continuity of imperial office, institutions, symbols, rites, signs and customs affected this successor state of the classic Roman Empire in ways that differ than then germanic west? In other words, if we are to call it a hellenic successor state, we can't lose sight of the aspects that caused the whole world to call and recognize the sovereignty of Constantinople as that of the Roman Empire. I'm talking about things that go to their own interpretation of christianity to the very roman custom of declaring war via the imperial-arms-at-the-palace-wall. Things that lasted to the very last moment.

 

[thesheeep]

Oh, hey, look what I started

If that wasn't the case you wouldn't have to do much more than A) create a inland sea fleet larger than the Ottoman's (which is doable with your beginning resources alone, though it will get harder over time)

Ehm, wut?
Your initial resources are enough for, like, 3 galleys.
With the monthly income you would never be able to afford maintaining a fleet larger than maybe 30. IIRC, you need around 80.
And that is only possible by abusing the shit out of the loan system, because some mysterious entity would give you a hundred loans.

I rarely use any loans at all in my EU games, but certainly never a hundred of those at once.

One idea some people actually try is to flee. Make use of your initial treaty to conquer something in Italy or whatever. Lay low for a while and then become a HRE member. From there on it should be a normal OPM game.

Funny idea, actually.
Is one core province in the HRE enough to become a member?

 

[Reject_666_6]

I did it successfully in my only ironman Byz game. Basically it was a few patches ago, when you could annex Ancona right off the bat because it started without allies. Coring didn't take too long and once it's cored you can move your capital there in order to join the HRE. Suck up to Austria enough and they'll let you join, and not too long after they'll impose religious unity on you, which is awesome since being Catholic is way better, both cause of bonuses and convenience in annexing your Italian neighbors. Expect to lose Constantinople and most of your mainland holdings and vassals. I managed to keep hold of all the Aegean, though. Conquered Papal States and moved capital to Rome quickly enough, annexed most of Lombardy until I essentially became Naples sized. Through some machinations I managed to become an elector as well.

There are downsides though. Westernising is a pain in the ass, and it's ridiculous that it's even necessary for the very catalyst of the Renaissance to Westernise while surrounded by the West. Also, more annoyingly, Byz still keeps their Agnatic-Cognatic succession rules, which disqualifies you from taking the Holy Roman throne whenever you're ruled by an Empress. Which can happen many times in a row. Also, expanding into the fucking Aragonese Naples is a nightmare without strong allies.

 

[Delterius]

Oh, hey, look what I started

If that wasn't the case you wouldn't have to do much more than A) create a inland sea fleet larger than the Ottoman's (which is doable with your beginning resources alone, though it will get harder over time)

Ehm, wut?
Your initial resources are enough for, like, 3 galleys.
With the monthly income you would never be able to afford maintaining a fleet larger than maybe 30. IIRC, you need around 80.

Of course you can maintain a fleet in the 20s. Unless you're thinking of maintaing 3 advisors as a one province minor.

One idea some people actually try is to flee. Make use of your initial treaty to conquer something in Italy or whatever. Lay low for a while and then become a HRE member. From there on it should be a normal OPM game.

Funny idea, actually.
Is one core province in the HRE enough to become a member?

Well, yes and no. It has to be both a core and your capital. In theory I think you'll make a beeline for Ancona since it is next to the HRE. After that its a matter of sucking up to Austria.

 

[Delterius]

Double post but I just remembered a funny idea I had, it depends however on how culture change works: the Byzantine Empire can be reformed by any country that A) Holds Constantinople as a Capital; B) Is Orthodox Christian and C) Is Greek. Depending on how culture change works, all you need is a greek majority and the capacity to break the turks at one point in order to restore the faction.

As it happens, I believe there is one nearby country with just such credentials: Hungary. It is nearby and therefore entirely capable of conquering the Orthodox balkans before anyone else. The number of provinces of Hungarian culture are also 2 less than the total of Greek culture at the beginning of the game, meaning that Constantinople can be allowed to be conquered and converted by Ottoman decision. The balkans won't make you much stronger but if you can secure an alliance with a strong Poland or Austria you should be set.

I never tried anything like it though, any obvious issues with the plan?

 

[Delterius]

You need extremely high relations with the Emperor, who's likely to be Catholic at that time. You can always vassalize the Papal States and pretend he's your new patriarch.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

it depends however on how culture change works

IIRC, culture shift is possible if your capital has a different culture than your state culture, and said culture produces over 50% of your tax income.

 

[Space Satan]

In this, the tenth developers’ diary for Wealth of Nations, we will be looking at the various changes and improvements that we have made to mechanics and balance, all of which will be part of the free 1.6 patch for Europa Universalis IV.


Aggressive Expansion

We have changed how nations gain Aggressive Expansion in 1.6. Previously, vassalizing a nation would give a fixed amount of AE regardless of that nation's size, while taking its provinces would give AE for each province captured. This has been changed to be more consistent; vassalization now gives AE based on the number of provinces held by the country that is vassalized, though the AE gained from vassalizing is still lower than that you would get from conquering. A number of ideas and policies have also gained a new modifier called Aggressive Expansion Impact, which lowers the amount of AE you take from signing peace deals. Additionally, breaking a truce now always gives a large amount of AE, even towards your allies.


Units

Unit types have received a comprehensive rebalance, with almost every single land unit in the game having their stats changed. The overall number of 'pips' on units were cut in half to reduce the role played by technology in land battles. Major rebalancing was also done of the different technology groups, who are now almost entirely equal in overall strength, but 'peak' at different times. For example, the Ottomans receive very strong early game units, but aren't as good in the late game, while Western units start out poor but excel in the late game. Progression through units is now much less uneven for many of the slower tech groups, and many units that were under- or overpowered for their tech level have been adjusted. The African and Native American tech groups also received a number of new cavalry units.

As a part of these changes, nations that Westernize will no longer get Western units, retaining their old technology group's units instead.


Conquest & Rebels

Rebels have been made into much more of a threat in 1.6, spawning in greater numbers and with better army composition. Newly conquered territories will now also be a source of turmoil, as Nationalism will remain for 30 years even if you core the province. Since this makes traditional conquest harder and diplomatic annexation even more attractive than it already was, we are also introducing a cost to diplomatic annexation.

When you start to diplomatically annex a country, doing so will have a ticking cost of up to 15 diplomatic points per month. When your point expenditure reaches the country's total base tax * 15 (so a base tax 10 country would take 150 diplomatic points to annex), the country will be annexed. This means that diplomatic annexation is no longer a 'free' alternative to outright conquest, but uses a different kind of points and allows you avoid all the nationalist problems you get from just taking the provinces.


Technology

We've noticed that the early colonizers such as Castile and Portugal often get a massive advantage just from being early, quickly locking up large parts of the new world before nations like England, the Netherlands or France can reach it. To slow down early colonization and give the later colonizers a chance to compete, we've tied the base settler growth to diplomatic technology. At level 3, this base growth is only +25 (compared to +50 previously), but increases at tech levels 10, 15, 22, 26 and 32 up to a total of +150, allowing for rapid colonization in the later stages of the game.

Another addition to technology is Administrative Efficiency, a new country-wide bonus that is unlocked at administrative technology level 23 and increases at 26 and 29, up to a total of 75%. Administrative Efficiency directly reduces the impact of province base tax on overextension and warscore cost, allowing for much larger territories to be conquered at once. Additionally the scaling of core time from country size has been removed - all nations now core provinces at the same speed regardless of size (but it is still affected by factors such as culture, religion, having a claim and so on). This creates a more interesting late game, as the large nations that have formed by then are now able to score decisive victories over their rivals instead of fighting 10-year wars over a few border provinces.

Finally, the neighbour bonus multiplier to technology has been reduced from 5% to 2%, meaning that it is less of an ideal strategy to hold off increasing your technology level so that you can stack up neighbour bonuses and more cheaply advance.




Religion

In dev diary 5, we talked about the changes we made to the Reformed and Hindu religions but failed to mention a change to the way Religious Unity works. Up until now, Religious Unity has simply been a factor of how many provinces of your national religion you own, making tolerance rather useless since having lots of tolerated heretics and heathens would tank your Religious Unity anyway. We have now connected Religious Unity to how tolerant you are towards the religions in your provinces.

The effects of tolerance on religious unity per province are as follows:
- Religion you have negative tolerance towards: 0% unity value
- Religion you have 0 tolerance towards: 25% unity value
- Religion you have 1 tolerance towards: 50% unity value
- Religion you have 2 tolerance towards: 75% unity value
- Religion you have 3+ tolerance towards: 100% unity value

Provinces of your national religion always contribute 100% unity, regardless of your tolerance towards your own faith. This means that if half your country is your national faith, and the other half is a faith you have +1 tolerance towards, your total Religious Unity will be 75% instead of 50%. Additionally, the events that fire when you have positive tolerance of heretics which convert your provinces to heretic religions are now far, far less likely to occur.


Buildings

As mentioned in Dev Diary 8, the building system has received a comprehensive overhaul, with many buildings having their bonuses reworked. The aim is to make Government buildings more attractive, and clearly define roles for each line of buildings:
- Government: Tax Income & Revolt Risk
- Trade: Trade Power & Income
- Production: Production Income & Cost Reduction
- Military: Manpower & Land Forcelimit
- Naval: Ship Building & Naval Forcelimit
- Forts: Defense & Supply Limit


AI Improvements

The AI has received its usual slew of improvements, particularly in the areas of naval warfare, trade and budgeting (as well as plenty of bug fixes).

In addition to these general improvements, some work has also been done to make allying with the AI a better experience. First of all, the importance AI places on trust has been increased considerably, with AI nations much less likely to turn on a highly trusted ally. The way you make the AI trust you has also been reworked - it's no longer enough to be allied for a long time, you have to actually fight in their wars and give them things they want in your wars if you want the AI to trust you. If you actively work to help your allies, they will be more likely to stick by you when the going gets tough.

Additionally, a new opinion modifier called 'Wants your provinces' has been added, which scales according to the amount of land you own that the AI would like to own, and with the importance they place on that land. Additionally, the AI is now much less likely to turn hostile against a nation they have a high opinion of, and will never go hostile against a nation they have more than +100 opinion of. This will show you exactly why an AI nation is hostile towards you, and will cause them to behave more logically; an AI nation that likes you a great deal won't break the alliance just because they want a province or two from you, but if they're looking to take everything you own nothing will push that opinion into positive numbers.




Overseas Provinces

If you've ever felt that it is a bit silly that Tangiers is considered a distant overseas province to Castile, we have some good news. The way we calculate overseas provinces has been changed so that provinces within a certain distance from your capital (roughly the distance between Italy and Libya) no longer count as being overseas provinces, allowing you to get the full tax, manpower and forcelimit benefits from those provinces.


Goods Produced

We have also overhauled the way that Goods Produced scaled in relation to a province’s base tax. Before 1.6, each province produced a base of 1 + base tax*0.01 goods. So, a 10 base tax province would produce 1.10 goods - only slightly more than a base tax 1 province’s 1.01. This has been changed to a simple base tax * 0.2, meaning that a 10 base tax province will produce 10 times the goods of a base tax 1 province - a much more meaningful difference between a rich and poor province.




As a final bonus, many nations have received tweaks and improvements to their Dynamical Historical Events. We felt that too many DHEs had trigger conditions that are near-impossible to achieve, are set to fire only in tiny windows of time (with a high mean time to happen too), or simply offer choices where one option is clearly superior to the others, removing any real sense of fun in playing out alternate histories. Austria, Ming, the Netherlands and Poland have had their DHEs significantly improved so they will be more frequent and interesting. And, of course, we've even added some new events, too.

 

[Malakal]

Thats truly awesome, superb changes. But yet again we get them for free so buying the DLC is pointless.

 

[baturinsky]

What is the cheapest way of expanding now? That is, with not too much AE piled or Admin Point spent on coring?

 

[Malakal]

Same as always, force vassalizing in different areas.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I'm not a Byzantium fanboy but the guy just seems to dislike Byzantium.

I think he just dislikes the semi creepy fetish that surrounds what is essentially the boris the bullet dodger/Black knight of medieval nation states. Romance is for neurotypicals.

Also doesn't help that byzantiums legacy has been hijacked by duginist/russian retards.

 

[Reject_666_6]

I suppose for somebody who sees the Byzzies in that light, any kind of attention would seem like a fetish.

But yeah, I get a bitter taste in my mouth too knowing that Russia stuck its dick in the Rome fanclub.

 

[Average Manatee]

Not bad. It's about 1/2 of my big issues with the game fixed in almost the way I said they should be fixed.

Though Administrative Efficiency would really work much better as a kind of sliding scale based on nation size/tech level/coring. And while diplo-annexation needed a nerf since it was absurdly gamey, putting more of a drain on Diplo points when the diplo tech line is still so weak is a bad idea. Meanwhile Mil tech remains by far the most important tech in the game and has almost no other point dumps like Admin or Diplo.

 

[Malakal]

Not bad. It's about 1/2 of my big issues with the game fixed in almost the way I said they should be fixed.

Though Administrative Efficiency would really work much better as a kind of sliding scale based on nation size/tech level/coring. And while diplo-annexation needed a nerf since it was absurdly gamey, putting more of a drain on Diplo points when the diplo tech line is still so weak is a bad idea. Meanwhile Mil tech remains by far the most important tech in the game and has almost no other point dumps like Admin or Diplo.

Mil tech was nerfed. Units now have less dots overall and tech difference matters less.

 

[Average Manatee]

Not bad. It's about 1/2 of my big issues with the game fixed in almost the way I said they should be fixed.

Though Administrative Efficiency would really work much better as a kind of sliding scale based on nation size/tech level/coring. And while diplo-annexation needed a nerf since it was absurdly gamey, putting more of a drain on Diplo points when the diplo tech line is still so weak is a bad idea. Meanwhile Mil tech remains by far the most important tech in the game and has almost no other point dumps like Admin or Diplo.

Mil tech was nerfed. Units now have less dots overall and tech difference matters less.

Nerfing it does nothing for the fact that there is literally no other place to throw your mil points though. Even spamming Harsh Treatment like a motherfucker is a point sink that pales in comparison to dip/adm point sinks.

On an unrelated note I'm wary of the whole "We're balancing military so lower techs don't lose horribly to higher techs". Because they've said that before in patches for their games, and the end result is that instead of needing to outnumber your enemy 10 to 1 you only need to outnumber them 8 to 1. Unit dots ultimately don't mean nearly as much as the base shock/fire values. Its interesting though to see the EU3+ influence since the separate-but-equal (mostly) units for different tech groups was how Wiz handled it there.