Game News First work in progress screenshot of Wasteland 2 revealed

[Captain Shrek]

In which case you should be the first in line to complain in order to ensure that this is no longer a concern for the future and just a present state of affairs.

 

[Brother None]

That what, exactly, is no longer a concern for the future? You mean I should be worried that they plan to release the game with pre-alpha graphics?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't see an agenda. I see what might be a subconscious death wish for the other side in order to placate your own frustrations. I don't particularly care if that's what's going on or not, just saying...hey, that's what it looks like.

First, I don't have any frustrations. Second, what other side? Brian Fargo isn't a fellow indie developer who someone struck gold, so why would I be jealous or wish for him to fail? I'm a gamer first and I really hope that Fargo would succeed, but I take nothing on faith and question what I see as potential problems.

Your concerns about him as a gamedeveloper sounds legit but comes without prove.

I don't have concerns for him as a game developer. My point was that we don't really know what to expect from him (in response to "does he know what he's doing").

 

[almondblight]

I don't see an agenda. I see what might be a subconscious death wish for the other side in order to placate your own frustrations.

You nailed it man. All of us that thought the screenshot was disappointing are working on our own projects and are just jealous. Because anyone else would think the screenshot was awesome. And besides, the only reason it sucks is because it's pre-pre-alpha.

And to everyone complaining about us discussing the screenshot. When Chris Avellone joined we talked about that. When the vision document was released, we talked about that. When they release early screenshots, we talk about that. And if they release great screenshots later, I bet all of us that were disappointed will be happy to say that the new shots are much better. But now we're talking about the shot that was released because, well, that's what this news item is about.

 

[General Maxson]

VD is derailing the chief argument here. It is not the timeline we are worried about now. That is AN INDEPENDENT issue. The concern here is the assets. FUCK YOU ALL THE RETARDS who want pixel graphics/ consider people asking prettier graphics Graphic whores.

Its 2012. There are other indie games making better looking games with less monies.

Then go play those games. If graphics are really the thing you care about, fuck off already. Idiots like you are the reason the decline can exist. Hey guys we don't need any gameplay we can just get some art from thousands of chinese slaves and starving students and sell just as many copies with half the efforthurr hurr.

Fallout graphics are shit, too, for 2012. Who the fuck cares? And no one jump on this comment, the point is that's not why people are playing games. And if it's really all there is then why talk about them just look at the purty pictures and be quiet.

Please change Shrek's tag to Full Retard. He's earned it a hundred times over.

I don't think Fallout graphics are shit now. I think they have aged nicely for such an old game. It has I don't know, some uniqueness, and atmosphere, and I would always remember how that particular engine fit the postapocalyptic mood of the game perfectly. On the other hand I do not like this "first screenshot" that we were shown. I'm all for different enviroments, and I think it's a great idea that they decided to put abandoned skyscrapers with foliage areas etc, but this just looks bland and generic. Ok, it's prealpha, but, why would they show the screenshot if not for the feedback, and improvement maybe? So we can drool at how awesome it is, because Fargo makes it, and he will bring back golden era of crpg?

Now, that I think of it, maybe it's because of Unity choice, as soon as I saw it, and the games made by it (they all looked shitty to me), I thought something like this will happen. I hope they know what they're doing. Personally, aesthetics wise, Unigine looked a lot better for a post apoc game.

I hope that they know what they're doing, because this may be the last chance at some good crpg if they fail.

@yeah, I was ninja'd by almondblight (partially) :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD thinks an RPG can't be made in 18 months. A valid concern, though I'm not sure it was necessary to bring up in this thread, but eh.

I didn't bring it up again, other people did.

Is it possible that the 18 month timeframe is simply implausible? Sure. Is it an absolute given because this 3-year rule is scientific fact? No. Not that it doesn't worry me, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions about it, as VD does.

Fair enough.

As for inXile's two action-RPGs: The Bard's Tale simply had different goals, it wasn't a real sequel/reboot and it couldn't be (due to licensing issues), so Fargo wanted to make a light-hearted parody. The game's biggest problem isn't that it's bad, it's that it wasn't what people wanted.

The biggest problem was that it was mediocre and not worth playing. Fargo was clear on the goals and nobody expected a sequel/reboot. The concept had promise, but the execution sucked.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=140 - the Codex review

"What was meant to be a searing hot stab of fun into the genre carried by a lighthearted tone quickly turns into a formulaic adventure at best and a mediocre action RPG at worst, with a character who is quick to recognize the genre's cliches but slow to overcome them. The game had many reasons to succeed, with an original premise and the production values to pull it off. One only needs to look at games like Grim Fandango, Discworld and Anachronox as excellent examples of actual intelligent humor handled by competent developers. But this simply isn't the case here. There's not a whole lot that saves the game from being a rather generic and shallow action romp, and even with three different endings and unlockable content you're still looking at a 10 hour main quest that only has simplistic combat to offer as its main gameplay draw. But perhaps worse than having erratic character development, convoluted design decisions, wonky interface, and drab and repetitive combat, it's assuming that it actually has good humor and assuming players will think the same."

As for Hunted: The Demon's Forge... I'm not even going to start on Bethesda as a publisher, but suffice it to say that no developer I've talked to who worked with them has any good things to say.

Which didn't stop Obsidian from delivering several diverse and well designed Fallout games (which - good design - is all I care about).

If the publishers did it excuse is valid for Troika games, it's valid for inXile and Hunted too.

Why? Troika had two very specific problems with publishers - Sierra was sitting on Arcanum for months while the game was being pirated, which affected sales, and Activision released Bloodlines when HL2 was released and fucked around with royalty payments, iirc. Neither is the case here.

Is it somehow Bethesda's fault that Hunted was deemed as mediocre at best and got 5-6/10 reviews?

"A game's success or failure often rests on the little things. An otherwise ordinary game can soar to great heights by nailing the details; conversely, a smattering of small flaws might cause fine ideas to flounder. Hunted: The Demon's Forge is the latter type of game: conceptually sound, yet clumsy as delivered."

Once again, the verdict is "good idea, poor execution". So, when you say "experienced team that he worked with for years", I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside.

Being critical is always good. Needing to be critical because "that's what the Codex does" is rather weaksauce.

You misunderstood what I said. I didn't suggest to be critical because it's an edgy thing to do. I suggested to question the areas of concern and ask for answers, rather than simply assume that Brian knows what he's doing, which is an attitude one would expect to find on Bioware forums, not on the Codex.

 

[Brother None]

Ok, it's prealpha, but, why would they show the screenshot if not for the feedback, and improvement maybe

Mostly to give a clear idea of things like camera angle and setting in one shot. And style, sure. Of course the point was to have it discussed and feedback given, and Fargo sounds pretty happy about the feedback given.

It is reductio ad absurdum to claim anyone is saying "don't criticize it because it's Fargo and golden age!" It's more like people are saying "keep in mind it is pre-alpha and keep the criticism within reason rather than dismissing an unfinished piece"

If you're disappointed, well, what about? Because the textures look too smooth, the models look off, etc etc? Sure, I can see that too, but I don't find that disappointing, it's expected at this stage, just not at later stages. Because it isn't grim and dark like Fallout? Well, that just is what is, though it will look better and there are darker areas later. The question is not if you should give criticism, there's no real reason not to. Saying "it's pre-alpha" isn't the same as saying "don't criticize", it's saying "keep that in mind when you criticize".

The biggest problem was that it was mediocre and not worth playing. Fargo was clear on the goals and nobody expected a sequel/reboot. The concept had promise, but the execution sucked.

I disagree. Not that I'm calling it good, but the writing seemed fine to me, and the core game was an unspectacular but not bad dungeon crawler-esque action RPG. I'm not a fan, so I may be sounding like I'm damning it with faint praise, but I thought it was competently made for what it wanted to be.

Which didn't stop Obsidian from delivering several diverse and well designed Fallout games (which - good design - is all I care about).

New Vegas is the one exception. Look at the many other games Bethesda published and look to find one where it doesn't seem the developers had good ideas, only it was consensussed and focus grouped to death. They're a consistently terrible publisher, and when you keep seeing it over and over, you have to start questioning the publisher over the developer.

Is it somehow Bethesda's fault that Hunted was deemed as mediocre at best and got 5-6/10 reviews?

Considering how much they interfered in the game, yes, I think it is. It's funny talking with Fargo now, he clearly still sounds proud of what he did with the Bard's Tale, but he won't even mention Hunted.

So, when you say "experienced team that he worked with for years", I don't get all warm and fuzzy inside.

Why not? When we're talking about how fast you can make a game, the experience of the individual developers and team as a whole is pretty key, which was my point with that remark. Did they do well making hardcore RPGs? Nah. Were they trying? No. They also added some talent to be able to do so, both old (St Andre, Stackpole, Pavlish) and new (Avellone, Tony Evans, Anthony Davis), to work fulltime and parttime. The question is "can they make what they want to make". I consider their games (well, mostly the Bard's Tale, I barely played Hunted) evidence that they can. You consider them so poor you think they can not. That just seems a perspective thing.

I suggested to question the areas of concern and ask for answers, rather than simply assume that Brian knows what he's doing.

Of course.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I disagree. Not that I'm calling it good, but the writing seemed fine to me, and the core game was an unspectacular but not bad dungeon crawler-esque action RPG. I'm not a fan, so I may be sounding like I'm damning it with faint praise, but I thought it was competently made for what it wanted to be.

It wanted to be an action RPG and as an action RPG it sucked. Not because the writing was bad, but because the character and combat systems sucked (and it didn't even have an inventory system). From the review:

"Unlike most other hack'n'slashers, The Bard's Tale has no inventory to speak of nor does it have any loot that you can physically acquire from fallen enemies. All the items the Bard can acquire are either purchased at weapon stores and taverns, or handed out at several fixed points in the game's story with the weaker equipment being automatically converted to the game's currency. ...nothing ever explains the logic behind this quirky mechanic, ingame or otherwise. And since the Bard's equipment is improved once in a while by picking up better weapons and replacing the ones he has automatically with shinier and deadlier versions, why am still I finding poor weapons that are instantly changed to gold? Instead of just finding a ton of weapons the Bard won't equip and since automation was apparently a design goal, why not have enemies just drop gold right away?"

"For the most part action RPGs aren't exactly a shining beacon of depth but The Bard's Tale manages to make the competition seem incredibly varied by providing very basic combat mechanics and controls. Attacks are only activated by the left mouse button, which means that the same button is used for single hits or three hit combos. Blocking is set to the space bar by default but ranges from the overpowered to the useless, since the Bard can block pretty much everything thrown at him (including arrows and spears thrown at him) but can only block that which is directly in front of him which is rather useless when he is surrounded by enemy groups. Movement is handled by the right button which can be left pressed to make him continuously move around the screen, while the context sensitive pointer will change shape every time it hovers above noteworthy things. Targeting enemies in melee then, which is where the majority of combat is played out, requires the use of both mouse buttons to turn the Bard into the enemies' direction and clicking to activate an attack. Simple isn't necessarily bad, but when you realize what little you need to do in melee combat and that combat is by far the thing you'll be mostly doing during the game, you can guess how repetitive and boring this can and will get. There's the possibility for ranged combat but considering that bows never require ammunitions - in fact, any arrows picked up will be turned to gold right away for some reason we'll never know - and that most enemies will reach the Bard faster than he can pull the bowstring, it's nearly useless."

Doesn't sound like a well designed game, does it?

New Vegas is the one exception. Look at the many other games Bethesda published and look to find one where it doesn't seem the developers had good ideas, only it was consensussed and focus grouped to death. They're a consistently terrible publisher, and when you keep seeing it over and over, you have to start questioning the publisher over the developer.

And they are the exception because? The only other Bethesda-published game I played was the Cthulhu game and it was fairly decent, if not good.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Fallouts (1,2) look better, so does Fallout Tactics. Can someone say something positive about the screenshot? What exactly looks good there?

In short, given the budget, it looks pretty damn cool in times when characters otherwise look like this.

Yes disfigured models wearing cowboy hat's in a fight versus a huge monstrosity is really something to drool at. I am not even talking about the colors....
Also I don't really get why people say that 3$ m is a small amount? You can get 5 artists for 5k a month each for 15 months for 450k and that would be roughly 15% of the budget. There are plenty of examples where people have done better with less...

 

[Ulminati]

I'm hoping this is an early mashup using placeholder art. What I do like from this view is that it's clearly designed to move people around in small skirmish warfare. Also, the models look simple enough that I won't have to worry upon hundreds upon hundreds of man hours being sunk into lipsynching EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING cutscenes.

My main complaint is that the colours are oversaturated and hurt the eye to look at. But recent Skyrim/diablows mods have shown us you can do some relatively simple directx renderer injections that fix colour balance at no loss to frame rate. Or it can get fixed pretty easily in unity by someone @ inXile adjusting a few sliders before release.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

And they are the exception because? The only other Bethesda-published game I played was the Cthulhu game and it was fairly decent, if not good.

I think it's safe to call Cthulu a good game. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Very atmospheric.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

First, I don't have any frustrations.

Impressive. Teach me the way.

You nailed it man. All of us that thought the screenshot was disappointing are working on our own projects and are just jealous. Because anyone else would think the screenshot--

*interrupts*

The fuck does this have to do with you?

 

[Ion Prothon II]

My main complaint is that the colours are oversaturated and hurt the eye to look at. But recent Skyrim/diablows mods have shown us you can do some relatively simple directx renderer injections that fix colour balance at no loss to frame rate. Or it can get fixed pretty easily in unity by someone @ inXile adjusting a few sliders before release.

Yeah, at this moment it's very reasonable to say "the mods will fix it", instead of going : x and demand changes.

 

[Ulminati]

Aside from the lighting I don't really have any problems with the graphics as shown save for thelack of an UI and tactical overlay to show distances and damage information. since the sole thing I have a problem with 1) Is easy to change and probably subject to change and 2) very easy to mod if it isn't, I see no reason to go all : x just yet.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Heh.

How many of you complaining here are actually discussing this over at the WL2 forums? Just curious. Do people there feel the same? Is there a constructive discussion happening? Because as entertaining as this is...

 

[Infinitron]

Heh.

How many of you complaining here are actually discussing this over at the WL2 forums? Just curious. Do people there feel the same? Is there a constructive discussion happening? Because as entertaining as this is...

Arguably the butthurt there is even stronger. Or at least it seems that way because they're less eloquent and than us, and everybody is biting their tongues because they can't RAGE freely like on the Codex.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Interesting. Maybe now would be a good time for some of us to pop back in there. Except I'm not butthurt. The screenshot was about what I expected. Tone down the colors, fine. I'm not really worried about goddamn graphics. But maybe some of you more eloquent members should?

 

[Ion Prothon II]

Heh.

How many of you complaining here are actually discussing this over at the WL2 forums? Just curious. Do people there feel the same? Is there a constructive discussion happening? Because as entertaining as this is...

There's much more and ass- licking, and something about 1/5 of content seem to be written by underages.

 

[General Maxson]

Ok, genius of Stasis graphics aside (despite all the arguments) I cannot but when I see this:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-timelapse-vertigo.69181/page-7#post-2196100 (one amateur artist, scroll down for screenshots)

VS.

http://i.imgur.com/sCaYM.jpg ("professionaly made" game art).

And Styg did have pre alpha shots, and they didn't look ugly to me. But I guess we'll have to wait for more development time for "real" screenshot representation. IT IS good that they posted this, so they can get feedback. And honestly I'm glad a lot of people dislike it. Fargo did target old Fallout fans as his audience, while pitching his game, afer all. They don't have to copy Fallout, or any other game, and I understand that Wasteland is a "merrier" setting with it's own uniqueness but it doesn't have to be so bland and generic and frankly ridiculous, like a toy story theme park. They need something unique, but beautiful. And my criteria is not DUH CRYSIS GRAPHICS WHORE, I consider Underrail beautiful (so it is not required to detract funds from gameplay).

 

[made]

Looks pretty much as I imagine an 18 month dev cycle, multi-platform, Unity engine RPG to look.

What, people expected Grim Dawn style gfx? lolz.

 

[Brother None]

How many of you complaining here are actually discussing this over at the WL2 forums? Just curious. Do people there feel the same? Is there a constructive discussion happening? Because as entertaining as this is...

People do feel the same way. You could say the response is pretty negative overall, looking at the official forums, Facebook and some other websites. But they're negative in a way inXile can live with, given the state of the screenshots.

The WL2 forums are essentially useless for this debate. Just a bunch of guys ignoring each other's points and twisting other people's words, people refusing to distinguish their personal tastes from this game's intentions, and people creating horrible "fixed" mockups that just look like they put a big brown shit filter on it, and then other people go "that looks so much better!"

It is enormously grating. I wouldn't recommend joining in.

It wanted to be an action RPG and as an action RPG it sucked. Not because the writing was bad, but because the character and combat systems sucked (and it didn't even have an inventory system). From the review

I'm sure the review is very interesting, but you keep quoting it as if it's gospel truth. The systems were very basic, yes, but it worked well enough. It's been a while since I played it, but I found it decent. Perhaps I'll have to try it again to see if my memories are failing me, I would have to admit my gaming tastes have become more refined since (I wasn't much of a gamer back then, which probably means my standards were lower). Still, decent is the word I'd use now. Competent.

And they are the exception because? The only other Bethesda-published game I played was the Cthulhu game and it was fairly decent, if not good.

Never played. Also I don't know, I've been wracking my head over that myself. Games like Wet, Brink and Hunted all had strong core concepts that were thoroughly ruined. I have almost zero hope for Dishonored unless Bethesda fixed itself somehow. Their approach with Obsidian was much more hands-off, and that absolutely mystifies me. I have no explanation.

 

[General Maxson]

Looks pretty much as I imagine an 18 month dev cycle, multi-platform, Unity engine RPG to look.

What, people expected Grim Dawn style gfx? lolz.

And damn, that Unity is ugly.

Well then, after all the praise, what actually can be expected from this game? If 18 months is too little for a simple, yet nice graphics, and 3 million $ is not enough, what about more complicated things from gameplay, story, dialogue, gunplay, tactics etc.?

I can't but wonder why so short development cycle anyway... He could have taken 3-4 years, and I would be happier, why pitch it to Oct 2013?

 

[Vault Dweller]

He wouldn't have gotten 3 mil had he asked for 3 years. He probably wouldn't have gotten even 500k.

 

[General Maxson]

How many of you complaining here are actually discussing this over at the WL2 forums? Just curious. Do people there feel the same? Is there a constructive discussion happening? Because as entertaining as this is...

People do feel the same way. You could say the response is pretty negative overall, looking at the official forums, Facebook and some other websites. But they're negative in a way inXile can live with, given the state of the screenshots.

The WL2 forums are essentially useless for this debate. Just a bunch of guys ignoring each other's points and twisting other people's words, people refusing to distinguish their personal tastes from this game's intentions, and people creating horrible "fixed" mockups that just look like they put a big brown shit filter on it, and then other people go "that looks so much better!"

It is enormously grating. I wouldn't recommend joining in.

So, just like Codex, eh?

Funny thing is, I didn't play Fallout for its graphics. And Fargo pitched W2 to Fallout fans too. So "people refusing to distinguish their personal tastes from this game's intentions" are unclear to me. Is W2 intention to be ridiculous (setting and graphics wise)? W1 was cartoony and funny, but that cartoony art was pretty unlike this. What exactly are the game's intentions, seeing as you are more connected with devs?