Game News First work in progress screenshot of Wasteland 2 revealed

[Vault Dweller]

No game is developed flawlessly, so there are always issues and I'm pretty sure that "the highly proprietary game engine" will cause a fair share of them.

They will most certainly run into problems. The question is what type of problems. They won't have any traditional publisher problems, which has plagued companies such as Troika and Obsidian.

These problems affect companies in different ways - they limit creativity, force them to do things a certain way (RT and action instead of TB and dialogues), and fuck with them financially (like Bethesda tying the bonus to metacritic ratings). They don't delay development cycles, unless they are really unhappy with what they saw and want a do-over, which happens very rarely.

I don't know how well Unity support works but there is tons of resources at hand.

It's a new and untested (by any real project) engine. Expect problems.

Well, a demo for a game show and journalists is not exactly the same as a demo like for instance the AoD beta.
Vickne of Larian makes it sounds like quite an ordeal:
http://www.lar.net/2012/05/01/the-side-journalists-never-see/
http://www.lar.net/2012/06/05/larian-home-movie-e3-the-thomas-files/

http://www.lar.net/2012/06/05/larian-home-movie-e3-the-thomas-files/
It is an ordeal, but it's not something that would cause a noticeable delay. According to the first link, 3 guys had to work extra to make it because the demo was too ambitious and a lot of things didn't work. Besides, I don't think that Fargo will miss a chance to show the game at E3.

Speaking of Larian, they started working on Dragon Commander in 2010. The game is expected to be released in 2013. They aren't going with a publisher, so there is no interference there. And it's not even an RPG.

Well there was also the matter of Unity assets and writing.

In my opinion, minor art assets (trees, ruins, cars, etc) aren't a significant factor as they are done in parallel to the rest. Buying these assets would allow him to save a bit of money, but not time. What do you mean by writing though?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Likewise, it appears that you get frustrated whenever someone criticizes or has concerns about WL2 and jump in to defend the game, either saying how you hate everyone here or looking for hidden agendas.

Appearances can be deceiving, eh?

I do get frustrated, yes. But not about WL2. That just happens to be the most noteworthy topic here at this place and time. What I get frustrated with is watching this place become a parody of itself, which it has been for awhile now. And it's even more frustrating watching quality members become a part of it. I'm not defending the game because there is no game yet to defend. If I'm defending anything its the idea of being fucking reasonable. I'm not doing anything but watching a bunch of asstards flailing their hands in the air and all screaming at the same time. It's getting more and more difficult to bring myself to caring anymore. Why click on any given thread? I already know the stupid shit I'm about to see: A bunch of miserable assholes complaining about any goddamn thing they can.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Whoa!

 

[Davaris]

I think I talked to him about it once and it sounded like he is factoring in the possibility of a delay, and inXile's own revenue streams (he mentioned those) and I'd speculate his own money could cover it if Kickstarter's funds do not. But you'd expect any competent manager to factor in the possibility, especially in video games. Planning for a delay is something else entirely.

There'd be no legal repercussions. Crowdfunding doesn't legally oblige you to anything except spending the money on the project you described and make a good-faith effort to complete it. He's not legally obligate to hit a deadline or anything, though it would lead to a lot of butthurt if they miss it.

Fuck the butthurt. Whoever bitches about missing the 2013 deadline and truly loves and wants crpgs is an asshole or a morron. They should bitch about bad design decisions. Sure, they should publish the game by the end of 2015. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair towards supporters. But IMHO the supporters, well, most, anyway were old school fans, so they won't mind the waiting. And personally I wouldn't mind waiting even longer if I knew it will help them bring another classic. FFS. I've been waiting for 10 years, I can wait more. Now, morons that gave money expecting Fallout 4 bethesda style can suck it.

Captain Shrek: now, that is a valid complaint for maybe some other kickstarter project, but not for W2. Fargo won't risk his reputation.

As long as he takes a not release until its done attitude, my concerns are put to rest. He said he wants to rebuild his empire, to do that each game must be exceptional. Quality can't be rushed.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Having more development time doesn't guarantee quality either.

 

[Excidium]

But it sure helps.

 

[Infinitron]

Whoa, take a chill pill, Doc.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Why do you ask for the most cancerous thing in modern isometric games.

Please, a quick list of games were rotating camera worked so great or at least better than just seeing your characters through the walls. Yes, that's how you see the characters without a rotating camera.

 

[bonescraper]

Please, a quick list of games were rotating camera worked so great or at least better than just seeing your characters through the walls. Yes, that's how you see the characters without a rotating camera.

Silent Storm? And pretty much every other 3D tactical RPG (like 7.62 and others that aren't really wroth a mention). Since the environments get more complex and detailed and shit, you won't see 2 story buildings in a dense city area for example.

 

[Marsal]

I hope he will succeed, but can we please stop screaming like little girls "it's Brian, guys! Brian! He came back! Like Zorro! He hid in the trenches to survive and now he's gonna blow us all away! Old school games are back!"? Can we take less on faith and question more? You know, like we usually do?

Are we talking about Dead State now?

I thought the reaction to Dead State was fairly skeptical and cautious (to say the least). I guess you really wanted to post that gif.

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed your posts warning us against backing Dead State on Kickstarter. Are you suggesting that Brian and a bunch of amateurs can deliver an awesome RPG by December 2013, but the other Brian and his experienced team can't? I guess they did have a 3 year head start in which they couldn't even produce a couple of minutes of uncut gameplay footage.

I'm not absolutely convinced that Fargo can deliver on time or that Wasteland 2 will be a great game. I am, however, convinced it will be out before and a vastly superior game to Dead State. While you avoid criticizing and even defend the game your friends (employees? co-workers? what is your relation to DoubleBear anyway?) are working on, you're being petty and a hypocrite by attacking Wasteland 2 for same things that Dead State does.

 

[Wavinator]

Then you're blind not only to colors, but also to elemental parts of the image. There's quite a few disturbing details, and some of them can lead even a man of average imagination to even more disturbing asumptions.

You have got to be seeing something I can't see or this is just a difference in priorities. Not even sure I'm following you on what you mean by "elemental parts," assuming maybe something like composition of the scene or whatever which I'd never expect in a screenshot.

You're comparing 2D graphics from one-man game to 3D graphics from game of small studio with 3 mln budget. Decent, minimalistic 2D graphics to appearently badly rendered 3d graphics of arguable quality. Moreover, you're implying *bad* graphics doesn't affect gameplay.

Would you play a game that had shit graphics but great gameplay? I mean obviously everyone has a different threshold-- I can't play roguelikes without a tileset-- but for me gameplay that allows free roaming, creativity, variety of encounter and indirect strategy trump graphics and are the sort of things I can find in, say, Prospector Roguelike that I can't find in games costing tens of millions to make.

When I look at that Wasteland screenshot it makes me wonder about what I'm going to be able to do. How open is the world-- is that going to be an encounter or can you walk away and have the thing chase you across the map? Can I sneak, get a defense bonus for cover, trade action points for elevation to get increased accuracy, flank, maybe sub-target parts of that scorpitron?

I wonder if I'll be able to romance the scorpion tank/bot in an emotionally engaging way. It's the most creative thing I can think out, while watching something that's not even a screenshot, but just a set of random objects (let's hope placeholders) put on random terrain.

Oh well. I think I'm biased toward the theme-- have always been drawn to future/modern-- so that's what stands out. Who knows, if it was your typical medieval game maybe I wouldn't give it as much slack. :D

 

[Zed]

Speaking of Larian, they started working on Dragon Commander in 2010. The game is expected to be released in 2013. They aren't going with a publisher, so there is no interference there. And it's not even an RPG.

They are developing two games at the same time, though. That's actually another thing that speaks in favor of InXile - they only have Wasteland 2 to focus on (while still getting sales money from Bard's Tale and that helicopter thing, because they're top-selling portable games).

In my opinion, minor art assets (trees, ruins, cars, etc) aren't a significant factor as they are done in parallel to the rest. Buying these assets would allow him to save a bit of money, but not time. What do you mean by writing though?

What I meant with writing is that they outsource area writing (including characters, "quests", dialogue) to different writers (similarly to the original Wasteland, but this time to "external" people). Stackpole will be assigned X and X, Avellone will probably be assigned X and X (as well as having some general creative input, as I understand it), and so on. These aren't in-house people, but rather people who meet up a few times just to plan. Probably stuff like how to write for Obsidians' tools and Unity. Other than that they just write their assigned stuff. I think there will be less interference than if the writing was done in-house, by a more collective body.

Obviously it's all speculation. I just feel like there are quite a few things in the PRO column for Fargo on this project, and not just cost-wise. It would be interesting to ask him about this stuff, if it's something he'd like to share. I'll make, uh, inquiries.

 

[Ulminati]

Why do you ask for the most cancerous thing in modern isometric games.

Please, a quick list of games were rotating camera worked so great or at least better than just seeing your characters through the walls. Yes, that's how you see the characters without a rotating camera.

Syndicate wars! God I hated losing agents to invisible enemies behind buildings in the original.

 

[Surf Solar]

All the complaints about "this camera is so terrible" all happen to be on console games.

You must be new here.

 

[Spectacle]

They will most certainly run into problems. The question is what type of problems. They won't have any traditional publisher problems, which has plagued companies such as Troika and Obsidian.

These problems affect companies in different ways - they limit creativity, force them to do things a certain way (RT and action instead of TB and dialogues), and fuck with them financially (like Bethesda tying the bonus to metacritic ratings). They don't delay development cycles, unless they are really unhappy with what they saw and want a do-over, which happens very rarely.

You are completely ignoring something Fargo has said many times; that constantly having to code demos for game conventions and scrambling to finish arbitrary milestones ends up taking tons of time and resources and takes away focus from actually finishing the game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed your posts warning us against backing Dead State on Kickstarter.

Did you see any posts warning people against backing Wasteland 2?

Are you suggesting that Brian and a bunch of amateurs can deliver an awesome RPG by December 2013, but the other Brian and his experienced team can't? I guess they did have a 3 year head start in which they couldn't even produce a couple of minutes of uncut gameplay footage.

If I recall correctly, my argument was that it takes 3+ years to make a quality RPG from scratch OR 1.5 years if you have an RPG-ready engine with all systems and most art assets.

Well, Mitsoda has an RPG-ready engine and people who know this engine well. All systems are done. He has tons of art assets (a lot more than he has shown). The story, characters, dialogues are written. He did, after all, work on it full-time for several years.

I'm not absolutely convinced that Fargo can deliver on time or that Wasteland 2 will be a great game. I am, however, convinced it will be out before and a vastly superior game to Dead State.

Ok.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And it's been a few months, where's the new programmer for Dead State or some kind of combat footage?

It's been a few weeks (KS ended on July 5th). They haven't even gotten the money yet.

 

[Vault Dweller]

They will most certainly run into problems. The question is what type of problems. They won't have any traditional publisher problems, which has plagued companies such as Troika and Obsidian.

These problems affect companies in different ways - they limit creativity, force them to do things a certain way (RT and action instead of TB and dialogues), and fuck with them financially (like Bethesda tying the bonus to metacritic ratings). They don't delay development cycles, unless they are really unhappy with what they saw and want a do-over, which happens very rarely.

You are completely ignoring something Fargo has said many times; that constantly having to code demos for game conventions and scrambling to finish arbitrary milestones ends up taking tons of time and resources and takes away focus from actually finishing the game.

I'm completely ignoring it because there is no fucking way that having to code demos (what, from scratch?) and scrambling to finish "arbitrary" milestones (i.e. delivering previously agreed on content) will double the time required to make a game.

 

[Brother None]

Whoa, take a chill pill, Doc.

Isn't he the guy who said I'd support Hitler, earlier? And a known alt? Best to pay no mind, no?

I'm completely ignoring it because there is no fucking way that having to code demos (what, from scratch?) and scrambling to finish "arbitrary" milestones (i.e. delivering previously agreed on content) will double the time required to make a game.

No fucking way, huh? How do you know that? How do you know all the interference from publishers and PR, need for rewrites or redoes, and extra load of reports and milestones (which are previously agreed, but that doesn't mean they are sensible, and you know that perfectly well) don't add up to that?

I'd also like to point out that a lot of "development time" spent by small groups just iterating ideas has already been done for Wasteland 2, when Jason D. Anderson and Brian Fargo worked on it. No coding or assets done, but a lot of the early pre-pre-development conceptual stage was done before Kickstarter launched. Doesn't make a huge difference, but it's there. Anderson worked for inXile for 9 months, so if it makes you feel better you can add that to the 18 month cycle, so it's now 27 months.
(this was a joke)

Please, a quick list of games were rotating camera worked so great or at least better than just seeing your characters through the walls. Yes, that's how you see the characters without a rotating camera.

Are we talking rotating cameras? The camera in Wasteland will have no rotation. There's a bunch of preset angles, all from the same corner, and I think some limited zoom.

 

[Marsal]

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed your posts warning us against backing Dead State on Kickstarter.

Did you see any posts warning people against backing Wasteland 2?

No. But I am seeing posts bitching about Wasteland 2 being done in 18 months. Why don't you bitch about "Est. delivery: Dec 2013" for Dead State?

If I recall correctly, my argument was that it takes 3+ years to make a quality RPG from scratch OR 1.5 years if you have an RPG-ready engine with all systems and most art assets.

Well, Mitsoda has an RPG-ready engine and people who know this engine well. All systems are done. He has tons of art assets (a lot more than he has shown). The story, characters, dialogues are written. He did, after all, work on it full-time for several years.

Well, he could hardly have less than he's shown, could he? And "RPG-ready" engine you're referring to would be the AoD engine? You couldn't even implement tagged skills, FFS.

I'm not absolutely convinced that Fargo can deliver on time or that Wasteland 2 will be a great game. I am, however, convinced it will be out before and a vastly superior game to Dead State.

Ok.

I'm glad that you agree.

 

[made]

Listen to VD. He's an industry insider.

While I'm not, I imagine there are way too many variables to consider to make blanket statements about dev times.

18 months seems really tight, but then I had a look at the reported release dates of Ultima 6 (June 1990) and U7 (April '92). While not complex in terms of mechanics, they were absolutely huge games with hundreds of NPCs, gazillion dialogue lines, and the engine and all art assets had to be done from scratch, and the game tested on a whole new generation of hardware. That's less than 2 years of dev time for an all new game, assuming parts of the team weren't already working on the sequel before U6 was done which is likely. But then they didn't have the tools and automations at their disposal that are available now. U7 pt 2, sort of an expansion, followed less than a year later. And that was when EA was allegedly already messing heavily with the development.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Are we talking rotating cameras? The camera in Wasteland will have no rotation. There's a bunch of preset angles, all from the some corner, and I think some limited zoom.

Did you find out anything about a grid in combat?

 

[Brother None]

Did you find out anything about a grid in combat?

Nothing new. "Is there no visual grid?" was one of the first questions I asked when he showed me the screenshot. I like visual combat grids, myself. But he only said "not sure" about doing a visual grid, which I guess does imply it's grid-based even if the grid is not shown, but that the game will clearly communicate how far you can/are about to walk/shoot/etc.

No. But I am seeing posts bitching about Wasteland 2 being done in 18 months. Why don't you bitch about "Est. delivery: Dec 2013" for Dead State?

That's an odd question, Dead State has been in production much longer than Wasteland 2. Not really comparable.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

You have got to be seeing something I can't see or this is just a difference in priorities. Not even sure I'm following you on what you mean by "elemental parts," assuming maybe something like composition of the scene or whatever which I'd never expect in a screenshot.

It's one of things the thread is about. I hope you'll find it out someday.

Would you play a game that had shit graphics but great gameplay? I mean obviously everyone has a different threshold-- I can't play roguelikes without a tileset-- but for me gameplay that allows free roaming, creativity, variety of encounter and indirect strategy trump graphics and are the sort of things I can find in, say, Prospector Roguelike that I can't find in games costing tens of millions to make.

If you give text roguelikes as an example of shit graphics that don't make the gaming experience painful, then there's nothing to talk about.
Anyway, the nextgen shit graphics is absolutely unequal to old-gen shit graphics: it's much worse. Once the graphics was shit beacuse somebody made it to be like that. Now we got numerous cases when the graphics itself is allright, but it's completely ruined by additional effects and algorithms beyond any control.
As a man of taste, I've been obliged to ragequit few recent titles because of it. I'm also disapointed to see W2 is likely to end like that (at least judging by pre- pre- alpha 'screen' of non- existing game) .

 

[Marsal]

No. But I am seeing posts bitching about Wasteland 2 being done in 18 months. Why don't you bitch about "Est. delivery: Dec 2013" for Dead State?

That's an odd question, Dead State has been in production much longer than Wasteland 2. Not really comparable.

It has "been in production" for 3 years and yielded nothing of substance. They couldn't even show a couple of minutes of gameplay. They have had an "RPG-ready" engine and people who "know it well" and they didn't even have a prototype to show. They have art assets, story and dialogues. It's not like you need gameplay to make a game. That's trivial to do.

It will be interesting to see which game gets done first. Smart money is on Wasteland 2 (although it will most likely miss the scheduled release date).