Game News First work in progress screenshot of Wasteland 2 revealed

[Brother None]

Funny thing is, I didn't play Fallout for its graphics. And Fargo pitched W2 to Fallout fans too. So "people refusing to distinguish their personal tastes from this game's intentions" are unclear to me. Is W2 intention to be ridiculous (setting and graphics wise)? W1 was cartoony and funny, but that cartoony art was pretty unlike this. What exactly are the game's intentions, seeing as you are more connected with devs?

I mean people seem to have donated without really researching what they were donating too. Of course, Fargo mentioned Fallout and other titles a lot, and I think that makes sense since that game will have a big impact on Wasteland 2. But it *is* a Wasteland sequel. Not cartoony like Wasteland 1, no, but I think (I know no details on this particular topic) they intend to keep the setting similarly weird, and they do want the style to be distinct (more colorful and vivid) from post-apocalyptic games like Fallout.

The problem seems to occur a lot with backers who donated expecting Fallout 2.5, or something else. They get very upset because they think they were promised something that was never promised (like that one guy who had an epic meltdown because it wasn't BioWare style one PC and followers), and don't seem to be able to separate their personal tastes and preference (brown post-apocalypse like Fallout's looks better) from what this game wants to do. Now, as far as I understand WL2 will have some areas that look more like Fallout, grey ruins and desolate landscapes, but yeah, a lot of it will not.

He wouldn't have gotten 3 mil had he asked for 3 years. He probably wouldn't have gotten even 500k.

Eh. He can just delay it now, if needed. Most Kickstarter projects don't succeed in their set deadline, anyway. It's not like he's locked down.

 

[General Maxson]

He wouldn't have gotten 3 mil had he asked for 3 years. He probably wouldn't have gotten even 500k.

Well, but see this, in this thread people said that perhaps it is better to have a longer development cycle, with smaller cash influx, than get a pile of money and very little time (well it's not better for the devs and their financial situation). As we can see from a few examples. And he mostly wanted to do this "properly" for old school crpg fans. Sure, it could end up vaporware that way, but I'm afraid what we'll get now anyway.

Also, he wanted 1 million $, and thought it would be enough for a proper W2, just not at scope as it is now. What would have we gotten then? At 1 million and 18 months? He wanted a 3d engine even then.

 

[General Maxson]

Eh. He can just delay it now, if needed. Most Kickstarter projects don't succeed in their set deadline, anyway. It's not like he's locked down.

And by true fans of crpg he should be encouraged to do so. As long as it has no legal repercussions. Better to wait a year or two more, than to get something that will fail every hope in a bit of a small renaissance of crpgs. As long as it doesn't turn into a 10 year wait or vaporware.

 

[Brother None]

I think I talked to him about it once and it sounded like he is factoring in the possibility of a delay, and inXile's own revenue streams (he mentioned those) and I'd speculate his own money could cover it if Kickstarter's funds do not. But you'd expect any competent manager to factor in the possibility, especially in video games. Planning for a delay is something else entirely.

There'd be no legal repercussions. Crowdfunding doesn't legally oblige you to anything except spending the money on the project you described and make a good-faith effort to complete it. He's not legally obligate to hit a deadline or anything, though it would lead to a lot of butthurt if they miss it.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Which is a serious issue with Kickstarter because they are technically free of responsibility.

 

[General Maxson]

I think I talked to him about it once and it sounded like he is factoring in the possibility of a delay, and inXile's own revenue streams (he mentioned those) and I'd speculate his own money could cover it if Kickstarter's funds do not. But you'd expect any competent manager to factor in the possibility, especially in video games. Planning for a delay is something else entirely.

There'd be no legal repercussions. Crowdfunding doesn't legally oblige you to anything except spending the money on the project you described and make a good-faith effort to complete it. He's not legally obligate to hit a deadline or anything, though it would lead to a lot of butthurt if they miss it.

Fuck the butthurt. Whoever bitches about missing the 2013 deadline and truly loves and wants crpgs is an asshole or a morron. They should bitch about bad design decisions. Sure, they should publish the game by the end of 2015. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair towards supporters. But IMHO the supporters, well, most, anyway were old school fans, so they won't mind the waiting. And personally I wouldn't mind waiting even longer if I knew it will help them bring another classic. FFS. I've been waiting for 10 years, I can wait more. Now, morons that gave money expecting Fallout 4 bethesda style can suck it.

Captain Shrek: now, that is a valid complaint for maybe some other kickstarter project, but not for W2. Fargo won't risk his reputation.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

And they are the exception because? The only other Bethesda-published game I played was the Cthulhu game and it was fairly decent, if not good.

Never played. Also I don't know, I've been wracking my head over that myself. Games like Wet, Brink and Hunted all had strong core concepts that were thoroughly ruined. I have almost zero hope for Dishonored unless Bethesda fixed itself somehow. Their approach with Obsidian was much more hands-off, and that absolutely mystifies me. I have no explanation.

If you've played through most of Bethesda's catalogue of published games, then I would recommend playing Cthulu.

I don't even know if it was released for PC, so I don't know if it's available anymore.

 

[Brother None]

Which is a serious issue with Kickstarter because they are technically free of responsibility.

Hmmm. I don't know if I'd call it a serious issue as much as something people just need to be aware of. It's not inherently an issue, it's just the nature of crowdfunding, especially through a relatively open platform. Just be aware of it and pick the projects you support accordingly (I've only supported like four Kickstarter projects m'self, Wasteland 2, DFA, Dead State and Shadowrun). I'd never pledge to something like this horseshit, a project I fully expect to become the cautionary tale of Kickstarter. This one is almost as bad but for different reasons.

 

[Goral]

VD, your posts are looking more and more like "I've taken a billion years to produce not a fuck of a lot so nobody else possibly could...etc".

And your posts make it look as if you're jealous of VD because contrary to you he actually knows what he's talking about and what game development means. He raises valid concerns about this project whereas you're saying "STFU, it's pre-alpha so it's too early to judge" and you're blaming it on his jealousity. That's retarded. He has nothing to gain from WL2 being a disaster of a game but quite a few things to lose (including money, unless he didn't support Fargo via Kickstarter). In other words you're calling him an irrational person even though he's anything but that. Otherwise he wouldn't be a programmer. And I think I'm being objective here, Poles aren't exactly fans of Ubersturmfuhrers.

On topic: it's too early to extrapolate how the game will look like while having only one screen but so far I'm mildly enthusiastic. Screens always look worse than the real thing and such detail is something I could easily live with. As long as there will be many options to explore (like in Desperados where you could blow something up, snipe your way through or accomplish mission without killing anyone or blowing anything up). Although I admit I would prefer graphics like in Uderrail.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh fun.

And your posts make it look as if you're jealous of VD because contrary to you he actually knows what he's talking about and what game development means.

Yes, exactly.

He raises valid concerns about this project

Sometimes, yes. Other times, he appears motivated to speak from his own limited experience as if he has a world of insight as to what and how Fargo and his team are able to or are going to function.

whereas you're saying "STFU, it's pre-alpha so it's too early to judge" and you're blaming it on his jealousity.

If I am indeed ever saying "STFU, some of you guys are so full of shit it's maddening" then I'm blaming it on some of you being full of shit. Has nothing to do with VD. I don't recall saying anything about it being pre-alpha and too early to judge, though that is a goddamn truism no matter how you shake a stick at it. The VD comment was an entirely different point and had nothing to do with jealousy and everything to do with somebody possibly projecting his frustrations. In fact, I even went so far as to say I don't particularly care if that's what's going on, just noting how it appeared to me. And it seems I wasn't the only one. Again, not that I care, but you singled me out so let's friggin' party, eh?

That's retarded.

What, most of your post so far? Yeah. It is. But here I am and there you are.

He has nothing to gain from WL2 being a disaster of a game but quite a few things to lose (including money, unless he didn't support Fargo via Kickstarter).

Other than the slight satisfaction of saying he knew better all along/told ya so, no he doesn't. That's why I used the word "subconscious" since I doubt very much he actually wants to see the game fail.

In other words you're calling him an irrational person even though he's anything but that.

Those are other words, for sure. But that's not what I'm calling him.

Otherwise he wouldn't be a programmer.

Yeah, well...that remains to be seen. I wish him the best of luck, of course, but programming an indie game for a few years doesn't mean you suddenly have vast insight into the entire world of programming, development and all aspects therein.

 

[xemous]

fargo should released more info. about the game to improve the spirits of the backers THEN announced a 6-12 month delay to polish everything. people will understand once they see a working version of the software.

 

[Wavinator]

Don't see anything wrong with the screenshot, not even the saturation problems you guys are pointing out-- but then I'm red-green colorblind so maybe the whole thing is toned down for me. I don't see cartooney-ness, I don't see distorted models (except maybe the guy in the back), so I'm really scratching my head in over the responses of disappointment.

Even if that was the best they could do or graphics really didn't improve, so what? So what if there are other projects that look better? I'm not going to be buying Styg's game because his MS-Paint crafted graphics look hot, I'm going to buy it because he's making a sci-fi RPG that looks like it's going to have some really interesting options. Yeah, it's the 21st century and visuals have a certain standard of modernization, but what has that given in terms of gameplay?

When I look at that Wasteland screenshot it makes me wonder about what I'm going to be able to do. How open is the world-- is that going to be an encounter or can you walk away and have the thing chase you across the map? Can I sneak, get a defense bonus for cover, trade action points for elevation to get increased accuracy, flank, maybe sub-target parts of that scorpitron? That's what I'd be looking for, damn the graphics.

I guess many years of expecting so much more from AAA titles has taught me that nothing comes free. The increased focus on actualized depictions of every single action rather than abstraction (aka use some imagination so we don't blow our budget on art) comes with a price-- and usually it's more shallow gameplay and less options. Nothing's free.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sometimes, yes. Other times, he appears motivated to speak from his own limited experience as if he has a world of insight as to what and how Fargo and his team are able to or are going to function.

Again, my position has nothing to do with my own experience as a part-time developer. It's based on:

- following games for more than two decades; I can't think of a single "full scale" RPG that was done from scratch (no existing engine and art assets) in less than 2.5-3.5 years. As much as I'd like to think that Wasteland 2 will be the first, it's a bit too optimistic for my taste.

- developers' quotes such as this one:

Tim Cain: "With that said, the Vampire had been under development for three years. While that's not a long time for a role-playing game - Fallout had taken three and a half years to develop... The original schedule for Temple was 18 months, which was and is unthinkable for a full-featured role-playing game."

- Fargo's recent projects: it looks like it took him 2 years to make Bard's Tales, Hunted - 18 months. These are medopcre action RPGs.

Therefore, I don't see how he can make a full-scale, quality RPG in 18 months. Feel free to refute my points and Tim Cain's quote, or kindly shut the fuck up and wait until Fargo proves me wrong.

The VD comment was an entirely different point and had nothing to do with jealousy and everything to do with somebody possibly projecting his frustrations.

What frustrations? We've finally released the demo, which is a big milestone for us. It was well received. Sure, the Codex bitched but it's business as usual here.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Dude. I really don't care. I'm just telling you how it appears to me. That said, you can't tell me that there was nothing frustrating in the long and drawn-out process of getting AoD put together. Way it appeared to me was, "Is VD just saying this because he'll look like an arse in the eyes of a few if Fargo and Co actually DO get this done in such a short time?" If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It shouldn't bother you. But you *do* go through quite the effort to detail why you think they'll fail. Just seems curious to me. Though it shouldn't, since most of you have a perpetual fucking raincloud over your heads anyway.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Dude. I really don't care. I'm just telling you how it appears to me.

Likewise, it appears that you get frustrated whenever someone criticizes or has concerns about WL2 and jump in to defend the game, either saying how you hate everyone here or looking for hidden agendas.

That said, you can't tell me that there was nothing frustrating in the long and drawn-out process of getting AoD put together.

Zero frustration. You get frustrated when you're trying to do something but can't. It's not the case here. Sure, it took us a long time to get to the demo stage, but we were working on it part-time and lacked the experience.

Way it appeared to me was, "Is VD just saying this because he'll look like an arse in the eyes of a few if Fargo and Co actually DO get this done in such a short time?"

Again, it's the Codex. If one's concerned about what others will think of him and his opinions, he shouldn't be posting here. If Fargo delivers a quality RPG in 18 months, it will be fucking awesome and I will be too busy playing Wasteland 2 to worry about someone remembering that I had doubts about the schedule.

But you *do* go through quite the effort to detail why you think they'll fail. Just seems curious to me.

I've never said that they will fail and I certainly hope that they won't.

 

[Zed]

Vault Dweller
These games (Fallout & VtMB) were hardly developed flawlessly. I'm not saying WL2 will be, but consider the history of the games Cain is talking about:
Fallout had a constantly changing development team, for instance being on the back burner with basically just Cain programming it for a long period of time. VtMB had tons of issues: lots of writers were replaced during development, Source was incomplete as they were developing in it, and they wasted time dabbling with multiplayer code.
Is it fair to draw comparisons between these games and a game developed in 2012 in a highly proprietary game engine?

Some other things to note:
Game shows. Developers spend a fuckton of resources to make game show demos. E3, gamescom, etc. Or just demos for whatever. Wasteland 2, as far as I know, won't need "game show" development. They release screenshots on a Kickstarter page and Fargo does interviews - that's about it.
Outsourcing. Writing, concept art, game assets, probably music and sounds. This saves time. They will probably even buy sounds off-the-shelf and even keep some of the art assets they've bought from the Unity store.
AFAIK there will be no voice acting and probably none to very little cinematic material. "Post-production" will be minimal.

On the other hand, I am very unsure about InXile's in-house team. They still need people putting everything together.

It's gonna be very interesting to see what happens.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

Don't see anything wrong with the screenshot, not even the saturation problems you guys are pointing out-- but then I'm red-green colorblind so maybe the whole thing is toned down for me. I don't see cartooney-ness, I don't see distorted models (except maybe the guy in the back), so I'm really scratching my head in over the responses of disappointment.

Then you're blind not only to colors, but also to elemental parts of the image. There's quite a few disturbing details, and some of them can lead even a man of average imagination to even more disturbing asumptions.

Even if that was the best they could do or graphics really didn't improve, so what? So what if there are other projects that look better? I'm not going to be buying Styg's game because his MS-Paint crafted graphics look hot, I'm going to buy it because he's making a sci-fi RPG that looks like it's going to have some really interesting options. Yeah, it's the 21st century and visuals have a certain standard of modernization, but what has that given in terms of gameplay?

You're comparing 2D graphics from one-man game to 3D graphics from game of small studio with 3 mln budget. Decent, minimalistic 2D graphics to appearently badly rendered 3d graphics of arguable quality. Moreover, you're implying *bad* graphics doesn't affect gameplay. You're either trying too hard or you're not trying at all.
However, I completely agree as for visual standards estabilished in 21st century: the game has definitely not enough bloom and brown filter.

When I look at that Wasteland screenshot it makes me wonder about what I'm going to be able to do. How open is the world-- is that going to be an encounter or can you walk away and have the thing chase you across the map? Can I sneak, get a defense bonus for cover, trade action points for elevation to get increased accuracy, flank, maybe sub-target parts of that scorpitron?

I wonder if I'll be able to romance the scorpion tank/bot in an emotionally engaging way. It's the most creative thing I can think out, while watching something that's not even a screenshot, but just a set of random objects (let's hope placeholders) put on random terrain.

 

[Ulminati]

I'd never pledge to something like this horseshit, a project I fully expect to become the cautionary tale of Kickstarter.

Oh thank baalzebub it slowed down. Kicktraq.com had it trending towards $35 million for the first couple of days.

 

[mindx2]

Sometimes, yes. Other times, he appears motivated to speak from his own limited experience as if he has a world of insight as to what and how Fargo and his team are able to or are going to function.

Again, my position has nothing to do with my own experience as a part-time developer. It's based on:

- following games for more than two decades; I can't think of a single "full scale" RPG that was done from scratch (no existing engine and art assets) in less than 2.5-3.5 years. As much as I'd like to think that Wasteland 2 will be the first, it's a bit too optimistic for my taste.

- developers' quotes such as this one:

Tim Cain: "With that said, the Vampire had been under development for three years. While that's not a long time for a role-playing game - Fallout had taken three and a half years to develop... The original schedule for Temple was 18 months, which was and is unthinkable for a full-featured role-playing game."

- Fargo's recent projects: it looks like it took him 2 years to make Bard's Tales, Hunted - 18 months. These are medopcre action RPGs.

Therefore, I don't see how he can make a full-scale, quality RPG in 18 months. Feel free to refute my points and Tim Cain's quote, or kindly shut the fuck up and wait until Fargo proves me wrong.

You put a lot of weight on one guys experience. Sure, it's Tim Cain but different studios, different game, etc. Any other developer quotes or is that the only one? Also what Zed said.

 

[Vault Dweller]

These games (Fallout & VtMB) were hardly developed flawlessly. I'm not saying WL2 will be, but consider the history of the games Cain is talking about: Fallout had a constantly changing development team, for instance being on the back burner with basically just Cain programming it for a long period of time. VtMB had tons of issues: lots of writers were replaced during development, Source was incomplete as they were developing in it, and they wasted time dabbling with multiplayer code. Is it fair to draw comparisons between these games and a game developed in 2012 in a highly proprietary game engine?

No game is developed flawlessly, so there are always issues and I'm pretty sure that "the highly proprietary game engine" will cause a fair share of them.

Like I said, historically, quality RPGs usually require 3+ years development cycle. Sequels/expansions that have all systems done (character, combat, inventory, crafting, journal, etc) and have most assets and models can be done in 14-18 months. So, we can assume that all these games had some kind of issues that explain such lengthy development cycles and that Fargo will find a way to ensure smooth and speedy sailing (even though his last two action RPGs took 2 years to make) or we can assume that RPGs actually do take 3+ years...

Game shows. Developers spend a fuckton of resources to make game show demos. E3, gamescom, etc. Or just demos for whatever.

If the game is playable it doesn't take much to prepare a demo. If the game is a buggy mess where nothing works as expected, then yes, it's a bit of a problem.

Wasteland 2, as far as I know, won't need "game show" development. They release screenshots on a Kickstarter page and Fargo does interviews - that's about it. Outsourcing. Writing, concept art, game assets, probably music and sounds. This saves time. They will probably even buy sounds off-the-shelf and even keep some of the art assets they've bought from the Unity store. AFAIK there will be no voice acting and probably none to very little cinematic material. "Post-production" will be minimal.

I don't see it as a factor. Concept art/music/sound/voice acting are done by different people. It's not like they ask programmers and designers to drop everything and make some music. "We are putting the band together again!"

 

[Vault Dweller]

You put a lot of weight on one guys experience.

Shouldn't I? He's given us three of the Codex top 10 RPGs. ToEE wasn't too shabby either. Is there anyone who's done more for the genre? Anyone who speaks with more authority?

Any other developer quotes or is that the only one?

It's been mentioned before but I don't have any quotes handy. Never thought it was going to be a topic of discussion.

 

[GaemzDood]

Wasteland 2 is going to be the shit.
I can enjoy bright & colorful games as I can enjoy dark & "gritty" games. That said, the obsessive compulsion of making RPGs "gritty" is hardly understandable which is why I've always appreciated the awesome Lands of Lore games.

 

[GaemzDood]

There's a difference between a color palette and burning your retinas out with oversaturation.

I very much doubt you can play something like that for more than a minute without tears in your eyes. And not tears of joy.

This is enough colors, IMO.

I like how the sign says "keep the fuck out", good to see that Fargo and co. are going for the darkly humorous style of Wasteland & Fallout 1 & 2

 

[EG]

Don't see anything wrong with the screenshot, not even the saturation problems you guys are pointing out-- but then I'm red-green colorblind so maybe the whole thing is toned down for me. I don't see cartooney-ness, I don't see distorted models (except maybe the guy in the back), so I'm really scratching my head in over the responses of disappointment.

Bright neon orange, dominating the other colors and absorbing them so that we're left with a muddled mess.

Like a Doritos/Kraft Dinner factory exploded.

 

[Zed]

No game is developed flawlessly, so there are always issues and I'm pretty sure that "the highly proprietary game engine" will cause a fair share of them.

They will most certainly run into problems. The question is what type of problems. They won't have any traditional publisher problems, which has plagued companies such as Troika and Obsidian. I don't know how well Unity support works but there is tons of resources at hand. Obviously internal conflicts can arise anywhere.

Like I said, historically, quality RPGs usually require 3+ years development cycle. Sequels/expansions that have all systems done (character, combat, inventory, crafting, journal, etc) and have most assets and models can be done in 14-18 months. So, we can assume that all these games had some kind of issues that explain such lengthy development cycles and that Fargo will find a way to ensure smooth and speedy sailing (even though his last two action RPGs took 2 years to make) or we can assume that RPGs actually do take 3+ years...

I have no idea about InXile's development capability, at all, pre-Wasteland. Not a ton of insight now either. I just know it has changed quite a bit, and not just by taking on writers and designers.

I can't speculate on how long it will take to make WL2, if they'll manage to deliver on time or not. But I do think they are developing in special circumstances that could (positively) affect the development time.

If the game is playable it doesn't take much to prepare a demo. If the game is a buggy mess where nothing works as expected, then yes, it's a bit of a problem.

Well, a demo for a game show and journalists is not exactly the same as a demo like for instance the AoD beta.
Vickne of Larian makes it sounds like quite an ordeal:
http://www.lar.net/2012/05/01/the-side-journalists-never-see/
http://www.lar.net/2012/06/05/larian-home-movie-e3-the-thomas-files/

I don't see it as a factor. Concept art/music/sound/voice acting are done by different people. It's not like they ask programmers and designers to drop everything and make some music. "We are putting the band together again!"

Well there was also the matter of Unity assets and writing.