How to fix Gnomes, Hafllings, Orcs, and Elves.

[Latro]

Is it "most people can't roleplay other fantasy races so we should keep only humans" or "writing and world-building in CRPG is generally atrocious so let me do my bit" type of thread?

I think it's an honest examination of fantasy race cliches in RPGs. Just being able to play them really robs the races of flavor in the end; they aren't otherworldly fantasy beings with a literally inhuman mindset/philosophy, they're just short/ugly/beautiful humans with bonus or minus to traits.

 

[Norfleet]

It depends on the race, really. This is most apparently in Dwarf vs. Elf. Have you noticed how there's basically nothing in the way of meaningful Elf games, while Dwarf games are a genre in and of themselves? Elves can't translate to gameplay as anything meaningful without apparently losing their elf-ness, while dwarf games are great, because dwarves are somehow relatable even while being non-human. They're NOT just short humans, as anyone who's actually tried living like one will tell you. Being a dwarf and digging a hole is somewhat of an outlier in human behavior: Close enough to understand, but for most, not close enough to actually live, which is why IRL dwarves are much less common.

 

[Alex]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

Irish!

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

(((they))) aren't known for their warrior skills so that idea doesn't make sense to me. I remember reading they were based on some kind of Norse mythology but don't quote me on that as the last time i checked was eons ago.

(((Gnomes))) however...

It's been a while since I've read the book (and I don't intend to ever pick it up again since it's more boring than watching paint dry), but weren't the dwarves depicted as being very greedy and obsessed with wealth, which led to their downfall? Also they are hook-nosed and isolationist.

Greed is not an exclusive trait of the you know who. Their exclusive trait is usury (I.E., Shylock). Everything dwarves have they obtained through effort, but what makes me think Tolkien used some kind of mythological source is that the notion of a race that lives underground being obsessed with jewels and gemstones has something deeply metaphysical about it, since the existence of gemstones or precious metals is essentially the divine manifesting its qualities even in the most hardened of matter, rocks and metals. I think there's something more profound to the dwarves love of those riches than mere greed, where as the Jew loves of riches stems from his love for numbers and mathematics, and for abstractions for the sake of abstraction which is a Middle eastern and quite foreign conception of the world compared to Northern Europeans. The notion of producing largess through haggling, by inflating the price beyond what was actually put in terms of labor etc is common in the middle east and it doesn't seem to me this is what dwarves are doing. Dwarves love gemstones and precious things precisely because they are precious, which is quite a different thing.

Dude, Tolkien himself admits the dwarves were inspired on the jews (for whom he had some fondness) in one of his letters.

 

[Desiderius]

nothing in the way of meaningful Elf games

That's this pathologically egalitarian age.

 

[Desiderius]

Why do you feel the need to go after halflings and gnomes, when they're the only non-human races on your list that aren't despicable? Well, except dwarves, of course. And orcs.

Hobbits love food more than women. What does that tell you?

 

[Desiderius]

where exactly would gnomes fit?

Sprigganknight fits wherever the fuck he wants.

https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=11390

What makes a man neutral? Equanimity, the true mark of nobility.

 

[Bigg Boss]

They were pretty cool in Arcanum. If we got rid of the Gnomes and Halflings I would like to replace them with rat people.

They would be a good thief replacement.

 

[Semiurge]

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Neutrals are balanced like nature and its children, like most men they are neither good nor evil. Because neutrals embody both good and evil, the situation determines which side becomes the dominant one. I guess this also makes neutrals impure in a way.

They were pretty cool in Arcanum. If we got rid of the Gnomes and Halflings I would like to replace them with rat people.

Kobolds are awfully close to rat people now, little folk with animal-like characteristics.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

There's nothing wrong with hobbits, don't lump them into this category.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Hobbit lover.

 

[Desiderius]

Hobbit lover.

Guilty as charged. My in-laws are barely five feet tall. Highly recommended.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Tell them to wear some shoes.

 

[Silly Germans]

Is there actually something like hafling/gnome lore ?
With dwarves i associate beer, mining, fighting, toughness, stubbornness, solidity, fortresses in a mountain, long lost fortresses in a mountain, lack of females, beards, axes ...
I didn't even have to think about it, its ingrained. When i hear halfing or gnome i have next to no associations, they are bland. What is typically associated with them ?

 

[Norfleet]

When i hear halfing or gnome i have next to no associations, they are bland. What is typically associated with them ?

When I think of gnomes, I think of brightly-colored conical hats. And exploding when kicked. I may have played too many Sims games.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

Irish!

Halflings & Dwarves are great, but really what's the point of gnomes.

Simple really. Dwarfs are Scottish or Germans. Halflings are English (or at least they should be, that's how Tolkien made them). That leaves Gnomes and everyone knows who they are.

The dwarfs being scottish is a Blizzard invention. Didn't Tolkien envision them rather as (((dwarves)))?

(((they))) aren't known for their warrior skills so that idea doesn't make sense to me. I remember reading they were based on some kind of Norse mythology but don't quote me on that as the last time i checked was eons ago.

(((Gnomes))) however...

It's been a while since I've read the book (and I don't intend to ever pick it up again since it's more boring than watching paint dry), but weren't the dwarves depicted as being very greedy and obsessed with wealth, which led to their downfall? Also they are hook-nosed and isolationist.

Greed is not an exclusive trait of the you know who. Their exclusive trait is usury (I.E., Shylock). Everything dwarves have they obtained through effort, but what makes me think Tolkien used some kind of mythological source is that the notion of a race that lives underground being obsessed with jewels and gemstones has something deeply metaphysical about it, since the existence of gemstones or precious metals is essentially the divine manifesting its qualities even in the most hardened of matter, rocks and metals. I think there's something more profound to the dwarves love of those riches than mere greed, where as the Jew loves of riches stems from his love for numbers and mathematics, and for abstractions for the sake of abstraction which is a Middle eastern and quite foreign conception of the world compared to Northern Europeans. The notion of producing largess through haggling, by inflating the price beyond what was actually put in terms of labor etc is common in the middle east and it doesn't seem to me this is what dwarves are doing. Dwarves love gemstones and precious things precisely because they are precious, which is quite a different thing.

Dude, Tolkien himself admits the dwarves were inspired on the jews (for whom he had some fondness) in one of his letters.

If that's the case then he had no idea who the Jews were.

With that said, can i get a citation? For all you know he could have just been virtue signaling.

 

[Silly Germans]

When i hear halfing or gnome i have next to no associations, they are bland. What is typically associated with them ?

When I think of gnomes, I think of brightly-colored conical hats. And exploding when kicked. I may have played too many Sims games.

I have never played any Sims game, but just now you've sparked my interest.

 

[octavius]

If that's the case then he had no idea who the Jews were.

With that said, can i get a citation? For all you know he could have just been virtue signaling.

It's the very first hit when you google:

"I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..."[T 3]

 

[Lyric Suite]

See what i mean? That doesn't seem like he based the Dwarves on Jews, only that he thinks of them as Jews. I.E., he was virtue signaling.

 

[alyvain]

With that said, can i get a citation? For all you know he could have just been virtue signaling.

Dwarven language is also based on Hebrew and Arabic (you can see an overview in this article).

There was a dumbfuck allegation of anti-semitism, of course. It was debunked in “Jewish” Dwarves: Tolkien and Anti-Semitic Stereotyping. Tolkien Studies, 10(1), 123–145. doi:10.1353/tks.2013.0003", which you can find on Sci-Hub. The author also claims that the identification of Dwarves with Jews remained partial, evident only in their language.

 

[vota DC]

On a more serious note.
Gameplay wise those popular non-human races have little sense in CRPGs. They are simply not different enough from humans. In most systems the differences boils to some slight changes to a few stats, some minor adjustments to some mostly irrelevant - in CRPG - secondary stuff. Almost all of those could be attributed to differences between humans themselves anyway.
In D&D-base CRPGs the biggest differences are what? Darkvision? Rarely plays a role in practice and most non-humans have it anyway. Size? It does play some role if implemented right in CRPG but at most would, guarantee 1 non-human + 1 small race. There also used to be a big difference coming from age/level limits but that was very long time ago.
If different races would be implement so that the world and its people reacted in significantly different ways to different races, that would make the races relevant. But that is not the case. Besides, most differences could be again attributed to different races of humans.
So in the end, all those elves/dwarfs, etc. in computer RPGs are just mostly about feeling nice. Look, I'm a dwarf! It mostly doesn't matter except the feels. Which is nice but some real differences in playing different races would be much better.
It would be really nice to, if we have to have inhuman races - for them to be really different gameplay wise. The differences in size as mentioned can be potentially one of those differences. A flying playable race would be different enough - if someone would be able to devise a system around it. And more, not just humans but with bigger beards or no beards.

Also there Is common language that Is cheap and the fact as human you can add any language.
In ultima Underworld there Is an interesting concept said by Vernix that lizardmen understand common language but are unable to speak It (there are grey lizardmen but maybe he never spoke with them) because they have a non humanoid tongue able only to hiss and click.

 

[Desiderius]

See what i mean? That doesn't seem like he based the Dwarves on Jews, only that he thinks of them as Jews. I.E., he was virtue signaling.

What virtue is that? Ambivalence?

Neither the Silmarillion nor the Hobbit go easy on Dwarves.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Is there actually something like hafling/gnome lore ?

Halflings are hobbits, halfling lore is hobbit lore.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

On a more serious note.
Gameplay wise those popular non-human races have little sense in CRPGs. They are simply not different enough from humans. In most systems the differences boils to some slight changes to a few stats, some minor adjustments to some mostly irrelevant - in CRPG - secondary stuff. Almost all of those could be attributed to differences between humans themselves anyway.
In D&D-base CRPGs the biggest differences are what? Darkvision? Rarely plays a role in practice and most non-humans have it anyway. Size? It does play some role if implemented right in CRPG but at most would, guarantee 1 non-human + 1 small race. There also used to be a big difference coming from age/level limits but that was very long time ago.
If different races would be implement so that the world and its people reacted in significantly different ways to different races, that would make the races relevant. But that is not the case. Besides, most differences could be again attributed to different races of humans.
So in the end, all those elves/dwarfs, etc. in computer RPGs are just mostly about feeling nice. Look, I'm a dwarf! It mostly doesn't matter except the feels. Which is nice but some real differences in playing different races would be much better.
It would be really nice to, if we have to have inhuman races - for them to be really different gameplay wise. The differences in size as mentioned can be potentially one of those differences. A flying playable race would be different enough - if someone would be able to devise a system around it. And more, not just humans but with bigger beards or no beards.

AD&D was designed to be played with human characters, humans were meant to be the best.
Too lazy to dig up the Gygax quote.

 

[Alex]

Humans can indeed be the best in old AD&D. I mean, it is pretty clear once you add in level limits. But it is also important to point out that getting there is not guaranteed by any means. The standard way of dealing with PC death back then was starting from scratch, with a new level 1 PC. There was a reason those high level magic user spells were so powerful; it was a real challenge to actually get to a level where you could use them! And if you failed, you had to start from scratch.

So, while non human PCs were limited in how much they could achieve, they had a lot of good bonuses right from the start. The capacity to see in the dark is not something trivial in old AD&D. Multi-classing meant that you could compensate for various weaknesses of the class you wanted, etc. In the end, it was important to pay attention to the attributes you got. A well rounded character, but without any particularly high attributes might play better as a non human multi-class (playing a demi-human usually required various attributes to be above a certain value). A character with two very high attributes on the other hand might work well as a human; the high attribute would help him earn XP faster and he might even dual class later on (which was something hard to do, but allowed you to become really strong).

In this way, the characters were kind of like a bet. Demi-humans are safer bets with less payout. A human wizard on the other hand was a risky bet, but if it paid out, it paid out in spades.

Edit: some typos were fixed.

 

[Silly Germans]

Is there actually something like hafling/gnome lore ?

Halflings are hobbits, halfling lore is hobbit lore.

I am unfamiliar with hobbit lore. What is typical for hobbits ?