Development Info InXile consults academics to create Wasteland authenticity

[thesheeep]

So, from a point of what amounts to ignorance (because we don't know what exactly these people will be doing, we don't know in what manner their insights will be used), we get:

Bye bye surrealism in Wasteland 2! No more talking potatoes for ya

It seems by all accounts that this game will have totally different atmosphere than Wasteland.

You want to know what science consultants do? Watch the movie Sunshine, they had a particle physics PhD "consulting" them. The movie ended up with a plot about reigniting the sun with a nuke. Very realistic

Haha, yeah, that movie was... weird by all accounts. Especially the ending, which turns the movie from horror/survival to confusing splatter and igniting the sun with a bomb :D
Funny to watch with friends.

 

[Excommunicator]

Here's a principle that I'd like to see these kickstart developers starting to work with: You can only announce a feature or decision in the development process if you truthfully put forward how much money it's going cost from the budget.

Meaning either they stop hyping these gimmicks as they do or they start thinking really hard and only promote things that are really important and that will be appreciated for the amount they cost, lest audiences are horrified by their wasteful behaviour. I think you'd find many of the developers would straighten up immediately and not be all "But we thought you'd really love to have these thousands of dollars spent on this feature that won't matter to the end game instead of just putting that money into more content!"

 

[Balor]

Well, I welcome spending money on science stuff. I never played Wasteland, only Fallouts - and if contained tons of wacky, over the top B-movie humor, I'm not sure I want to.

Anyway, a setting can be wacky or surreal - but still internally consistent. Also, some stuff real science deals with (like quantum physics or biology) is surreal enough as it is, more weird that can you possibly imagine even under LSD.
For instance, you know that platypus has electrolocation and venom that seem to directly affect pain receptors and immune to painkillers? Or that in extreme low temps (actually not found in the universe outside of laboratories, because of temperature of background radiation) liquid helium gets totally crazy properities of a superfluid (that is studied by quantum hydrodynamics, no less)?

 

[DwarvenFood]

I thought this would be handy for things like - how much vegetation would have survived, will cities be covered in weeds, how is the water quality in streaming water, how is the water quality in ponds - and not so much on how 'many legs does a scorpitron need to walk yet support its weight'

 

[General Maxson]

I think this is actually . Surrounding themselves with smart people and scientists can't be bad for the game.

 

[Johannes]

I thought this would be handy for things like - how much vegetation would have survived, will cities be covered in weeds, how is the water quality in streaming water, how is the water quality in ponds - and not so much on how 'many legs does a scorpitron need to walk yet support its weight'

And how are those better adressed by scientists than just picking an amount of vegetation that supports the mechanics and atmosphere you want for a given area?

Let's see how Wasteland explained the scienmajifics it had:

"Current condition:
High concentrations of radiation produce random storms and mutations. Somehow life continues in the Wasteland!"

Things like giant vegetables are not the kind of thing you want explained to you in detail. They're just fucking there and you deal with it, use your imagination on their source. Now if you put in a farmer NPC carefully explaining the process of how the they are grown and propagated, well it's kinda like talking about fucking midichlorians.




Also a real Scorpitron has wheels

 

[Turisas]

Things like giant vegetables are not the kind of thing you want explained to you in detail. They're just fucking there and you deal with it, use your imagination on their source. Now if you put in a farmer NPC carefully explaining the process of how the they are grown and propagated, well it's kinda like talking about fucking midichlorians.

And what do we do with hillbilly farmers who don't know how to shut up? That's right Billy, we shoot their kneecaps off and burn their farm!

 

[FeelTheRads]

Nobody gives a fuck about such things in games.

Really? Not even if the game is based on our universe? Ah, yes, LOL IT HAS SPEIS SHIPZ WHO CAREZ IF ITZ GOT REALS SPEIS DATA OR PHYSICS LOL.
And, then I guess you can throw in whatever shit you want and it doesn't matter. Since it won't improve the game anyway, then the retarded shit in Fallout 2 and 3 certainly didn't make them worse games, right? THEY WERE SCYFY AFTER ALL RIGHT LOL

 

[Grotesque]

So, from a point of what amounts to ignorance (because we don't know what exactly these people will be doing, we don't know in what manner their insights will be used), we get:

Bye bye surrealism in Wasteland 2! No more talking potatoes for ya

You want to know what science consultants do? Watch the movie Sunshine, they had a particle physics PhD "consulting" them. The movie ended up with a plot about reigniting the sun with a nuke. Very realistic

you talk about ignorance and then come with a bright gem like "reigniting the sun with a nuke". well....

anyway, any expert in their right mind and not a pseudo-expert will tell you that Giant scorpion of talking vegetable (for example) is utter bull crap in this simulated environment. If you disregard that and insert that in the game anyway to stay true to artistic vision, why have his advice in the first place and PAY for his services. And if money is not involved, why lose time and effort over it? its not like they don't have a full plate on their hands.
I already see the inXile staff studying wind spread fallout charts over continental US... alongside experts...
Give me a break!

"we don't know what exactly these people will be doing" read the press release once again because it says very clear what they will be doing. somehow this eluded you.
Maybe this is just a marketing stunt from Fargo and all the boys that wax his shaft in his defense shout it out "don't know what exactly these people will be doing"!

"Expect creatures that are a natural byproduct of their environment, biological and chemical warfare that makes sense and the medical know-how to survive with the scarcest of resources."
" At the core of their gameplay, immersion is required to sell the believability of this experience. While writers can craft this experience with artistic merit, Thwacke offers to enhance it with interdisciplinary science"

How Fallout managed to be so immersive without EXPERTS! opening the eyes of its founding fathers, I don't even....
Fargo is up to his tricks again
And fuck him and his experts.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nobody gives a fuck about such things in games.

Really?

Really.

Not even if the game is based on our universe?

Not even then.

Ah, yes, LOL IT HAS SPEIS SHIPZ WHO CAREZ IF ITZ GOT REALS SPEIS DATA OR PHYSICS LOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Suspension of disbelief or willing suspension of disbelief is a term coined in 1817 by the poet and aesthetic philosopher Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who suggested that if a writer could infuse a "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgment concerning the implausibility of the narrative.

And, then I guess you can throw in whatever shit you want and it doesn't matter. Since it won't improve the game anyway, then the retarded shit in Fallout 2 and 3 certainly didn't make them worse games, right? THEY WERE SCYFY AFTER ALL RIGHT LOL

Retarded shit in Fallout 2 and 3 didn't fit the setting (ghosts, yakuza, gangsters straight out of the 20s don't belong in a post-apocalyptic world based on the 50s sci-fi) and you didn't need a PhD in science to see that. It's not about realism at all, unless you think that super mutants, centaurs, floaters, and radioactive ghouls are realistic. Yet they made Fallout a fun and interesting game and that's what counts.

 

[almondblight]

Not entirely sure what your point is. Using consultants for writing fiction is bad? Having a test audience to point out that THINGS DON'T WORK THAT WAY (sorta) before your entire player base mocks your science chops is ill-advised? I'm just not following.

Which could be accomplished by just posting ideas to the forum. You know, all that audience interaction stuff that Fargo said he could do now that the bad publishers aren't stopping him.

 

[Infinitron]

Which could be accomplished by just posting ideas to the forum. You know, all that audience interaction stuff that Fargo said he could do now that the bad publishers aren't stopping him.

Spoilers preclude audience interaction.

Actually though, he is doing plenty of "audience interaction". Haven't you noticed we keep getting not-so-subtle reactions to Codex threads on Brian's blog and Twitter feed?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Seriously? You call this interaction?

 

[Oesophagus]

you talk about ignorance and then come with a bright gem like "reigniting the sun with a nuke". well....

[perception] check failed

"we don't know what exactly these people will be doing" read the press release once again because it says very clear what they will be doing. somehow this eluded you.
Maybe this is just a marketing stunt from Fargo and all the boys that wax his shaft in his defense shout it out "don't know what exactly these people will be doing"!

Eh, he didn't even tweet about it personally and it wasn't publicized anywhere else but Twitter. Doesn't seem like much of a marketing move to me.

Wasteland 2 is ROOIND!

stealth edit:

I can see why people are butthurt over this. I mean it's not like he made W1 and F1/2 without constantly interacting with the fanbase over every detail

 

[FeelTheRads]

Really.

Clever.

Retarded shit in Fallout 2 and 3 didn't fit the setting

So, "doesn't fit the setting" is bad but "fit the setting" is irrelevant/unnecessary? I guess I can't suspend my disbelief enough to see the logic behind that.

 

[Infinitron]

Seriously? You call this interaction?

It is a form of interaction, yes. Certainly more interactive than publisher-backed games. We talk, he listens, notes and reacts (and vice versa of course)

Sure, it would be cool to have an occasional direct conversation, like that time on the Obsidian forums a few weeks back when Josh Sawyer showed up and asked people why they think it's good to have to exit dungeons to rest. But even that only lasted for like an hour or so, and Josh too has pretty much disappeared now that the Eternity Kickstarter is over.

 

[Alex]

Oh my, consulting sciencey people for your science fiction setting?

That's... a pretty good move actually. Just give 'em what you come up with, and if they don't facepalm and laugh/cry, carry on!

There are different type of Science Fiction, you know? Real science only gets in the way of the pulpy kind.

Edit: Actually, this isn't quite true. Real science inspired it in first place, and should still be able to do so. But at the same time that science inspires it, pulpy science fiction always ignores a whole lot about real science too, which is why this move is so weird.

Not entirely sure what your point is. Using consultants for writing fiction is bad? Having a test audience to point out that THINGS DON'T WORK THAT WAY (sorta) before your entire player base mocks your science chops is ill-advised? I'm just not following.

Mocking this type of fiction because that is not how science works is missing the point entirely. It is like complaining the way modifying time in the Back to the Future series isn't consistent, or that seeing your past self possibly destroying the whole universe, while all the other paradoxes seemingly never do is a load of crap. Or that flying cars aren't going to be available in the next century, and possibly at all. This is all true, of course, but is besides the point. The movie had science work exactly as its plot needed it to work.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting to have science be self consistent in the game. It can even improve gameplay! I mean, if your basic fact about robots make sense, the player may extrapolate over them and find ways to beat enemies they wouldn't be readily able to in first place, for example. But when you are working with pulpy science fiction, the science used is really gonzo and may not have anything to do with real science except a passing resemblance. I am talking here about stuff like The Color Out of Space from Lovecraft, or Mr. Shaver's I Remember Lemuria.

Edit: So, my point is, the underlying logic should have little to do with real science and a lot t d with the theme and mood they want to create. Having the thing in Color be a color that was never seen before doesn't make sense given our understanding of how vision works. But it was a pretty cool way to say that the thing was alien, out of this universe and so on.

 

[almondblight]

Spoilers preclude audience interaction.

None of the examples that people have brought up so far were anything that could be considered spoilers. If there are spoilers, Fargo can just post a spoiler tag. I seriously doubt the science stuff would give much away one way or another.

Or, hell, just make a generic science forum and through around different ideas there, and you don't even have to mention which ones are used in the game and which aren't. Brainstorming with the audience and all that.

 

[Infinitron]

Brother None

Speaking of interaction, I think you guys should consider consolidating the boards on the Wasteland 2 forums. There doesn't seem to be enough traffic to justify them all. It will make it easier to follow what's still going on there.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

You guys are all a bunch of fucking idiots. I'm going back to the Steve Albini thread until this thread dies.

 

[Jaesun]

You guys are all a bunch of fucking idiots. I'm going back to the Steve Albini thread until this thread dies.

You are doing it wrong BRO. Here, I just made a fresh batch of popcorn. Sit back and relax man.

 

[Alex]

You guys are all a bunch of fucking idiots. I'm going back to the Steve Albini thread until this thread dies.

Well, I have been trying to explain my points at all times, even if it seems I mostly failed in doing so. Still why don't you try the same instead of just leaving?

 

[Vault Dweller]

It is a form of interaction, yes. Certainly more interactive than publisher-backed games. We talk, he listens, notes and reacts (and vice versa of course).

Jesus fucking Christ, Infinitron. There is no interaction. Sure, he reads the forums and comments every now and then, but this is not real interaction and I'm sure you're aware in which context the word is being used.

It is a fact that Brian shut down the doors after getting the money. His behavior is not different than that of any publisher. Nothing's been shown in 6 months except for a mock up screen and two portraits. Every now and then he posts marketing tidbits on Twitter - "we're using scientists", "the game has so many words, it's crazy", "fuck, this game is gonna be awesome", but that's as far as it goes.

The lack of interaction doesn't say anything about the quality of the game at all, so it's not an attack on WL2.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I can see why people are butthurt over this. I mean it's not like he made W1 and F1/2 without constantly interacting with the fanbase over every detail

 

[Infinitron]

How dare you steal the limelight of creating Fallout from the god-like Tim Cain

Jesus fucking Christ, Infinitron. There is no interaction. Sure, he reads the forums and comments every now and then, but this is not real interaction and I'm sure you're aware in which context the word is being used.

Sure, the context of having exciting forum discussions with inXile staff, and having new info about development revealed regularly. The former, again, I'm not sure if that's a realistic expectation. The latter - like I said, we'll see what happens when they start production proper.