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Is Cyberpunk 2077 an RPG?

Is Cyberpunk 2077 an RPG™?


  • Total voters
    197

Ol' Willy

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Okay, look at it this way... Vodka's a kind of drink. And Orange Juice is a kind drink. But if you put them together, you've got a Screwdriver, and that's a kind of drink in and of itself. You follow?
Excellent allegory. Let's say that you had a screwdriver or two at a bar and then sat in you car to drive home. The pig stops you. Would he be interested in the orange juice that was in the screwdriver? Or will the vodka decide your fate?
 

samuraigaiden

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RPG Wokedex
Okay, look at it this way... Vodka's a kind of drink. And Orange Juice is a kind drink. But if you put them together, you've got a Screwdriver, and that's a kind of drink in and of itself. You follow?
Excellent allegory. Let's say that you had a screwdriver or two at a bar and then sat in you car to drive home. The pig stops you. Would he be interested in the orange juice that was in the screwdriver? Or will the vodka decide your fate?
In this metaphor, the Codex is the pigs.
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
It's a poor-man's Far Cry marketed as RPG currently in Early Access even though it is labaled as 1.0.

Go back to sleep samurai, there won't be any city to burn.
 

Tao

Savant
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
352
It's more like a looter than a RPG, and is not even a good one either.

It's truly in nobody's land: not a fps, not a rpg, not a arpg, not an action game, not a good sandbox either. It' really amazing when you think about it xd

Anyways i'm entertained with the game, a 7/10 or something for me. My only hope is this awful launch dont kill any future games based on cyberpunk themes. (pls someone make a shadowrun rpg again)
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,268
Okay, look at it this way... Vodka's a kind of drink. And Orange Juice is a kind drink. But if you put them together, you've got a Screwdriver, and that's a kind of drink in and of itself. You follow?
Excellent allegory. Let's say that you had a screwdriver or two at a bar and then sat in you car to drive home. The pig stops you. Would he be interested in the orange juice that was in the screwdriver? Or will the vodka decide your fate?
samuraigaiden has the right of it, you're not getting the picture because the Codex is so laser-focused on being the RPG police - that you only care about the vodka doesn't change the fact that the orange juice is also an integral part of the Screwdriver. In fact, you're undermining your own point, because in your example the Screwdriver still counts as an alcoholic beverage in spite of also having orange juice, just how Deus Ex intersects with RPG in the Venn diagram, even if it also intersects with the Action and Adventure elements. You shouldn't drink vodka before driving, and you shouldn't drink orange juice if you've got high blood sugar. The Screwdriver's a bad idea in both cases.

More importantly, the Action-Adventure RPG genre has decades of history behind it as a form distinct from the classic CRPG. Games like Deus Ex, Gothic, Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Mass Effect, nu-Fallout and, yes, Cyberpunk 2077, they're all Action-Adventure RPGs, but that doesn't mean they excel as pure examples of the precursor genres individually. Take Deus Ex: it's mediocre in the Action department, but strong in the Adventure and RPG ones, and an excellent Action-Adventure RPG overall. Fallout 4, by comparison, is okay in the Action department, but sucks at both Adventure and RPG characteristics. Cyberpunk 2077 appears to be a Fallout 4 permutation, where the Action and the RPG components are shit, but the Adventure part might be good (I dunno yet).

Anyway, point is that Deus Ex, Cyberpunk and Fallout 4 are all Action-Adventure RPGs, it's just that Deux Ex is a good Action-Adventure RPG, and the other two... aren't.
 

Dodo1610

Arcane
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May 3, 2018
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Germany
Since everyone called The Witcher series RPG I see no reason CP77 isn't one. At least this game can be played through using stealth and non-lethal weapons that are more role-playing than in most recent RPGs.
 

Ol' Willy

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ake Deus Ex: it's mediocre in the Action department, but strong in the Adventure and RPG ones, and an excellent Action-Adventure RPG overall. Fallout 4, by comparison, is okay in the Action department, but sucks at both Adventure and RPG characteristics.
Now you got to ask yourself a question: why all these hybrids suck in one or two departments? Because these genres do not mix, just like oil and water.

Take Deus Ex: gunplay there plainly sucks, at least in the first half of the game. Why? If we make gunplay strong from the start the need for RPG mechanics will fall off. People will just shoot their way to the end, plain and simple. Fagout 4 has better gunplay, but superficial RPG mechanics. If we make RPG mechanics there more pronounced the game will become too easy, or more over the top with HP bloat or enemy numbers.

You can't make "Action-adventure RPG" that excels at all the three components. One should make a room for another, leading to mongrels of the game which are mediocre all the way around or accent one aspect over another. In Xenus 2, aiming through the sights is an actual perk that you need to choose - the thing that you have in normal shooters by default! Stalker has excellent gunplay and no stats or skills whatsoever; if we add some of these we will have to sacrifice some of the gunplay mechanics available to a player from the start. Dark Messiah has great combat, but RPG mechanics there are just simple way of locking away options from you.

To speak of Deus Ex again, it finds more or less perfect balance and this is why this game is valued so much. But truth be told, while I love Deus Ex, it is saved by excellent worldbuilding, atmosphere, characters, story, brilliant level-design and the sheer amount of options to progress available; the combat itself is not the strongest point of the game by any meaning. Deus Ex is the sum of its parts, if we remove all of the above, making a new game using the same mechanics, but with some amateur writing, bad level design and boring setting, the game will surely flop.
 

res11

Novice
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Messages
46
If Witcher 3 was an RPG then this game is an RPG, this is an objective fact regardless of what you think of the game's quality.
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
7,830
If Witcher 3 was an RPG then this game is an RPG, this is an objective fact regardless of what you think of the game's quality.
Witcher 3 is interactive movie, though
Seems to be considered an RPG by the majority of this site though
Majority of this site are decline enablers who spend most of their time on Bethesda games and won't touch anything older than Fallout.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,268
ake Deus Ex: it's mediocre in the Action department, but strong in the Adventure and RPG ones, and an excellent Action-Adventure RPG overall. Fallout 4, by comparison, is okay in the Action department, but sucks at both Adventure and RPG characteristics.
Now you got to ask yourself a question: why all these hybrids suck in one or two departments? Because these genres do not mix, just like oil and water.

Take Deus Ex: gunplay there plainly sucks, at least in the first half of the game. Why? If we make gunplay strong from the start the need for RPG mechanics will fall off. People will just shoot their way to the end, plain and simple. Fagout 4 has better gunplay, but superficial RPG mechanics. If we make RPG mechanics there more pronounced the game will become too easy, or more over the top with HP bloat or enemy numbers.

You can't make "Action-adventure RPG" that excels at all the three components. One should make a room for another, leading to mongrels of the game which are mediocre all the way around or accent one aspect over another. In Xenus 2, aiming through the sights is an actual perk that you need to choose - the thing that you have in normal shooters by default! Stalker has excellent gunplay and no stats or skills whatsoever; if we add some of these we will have to sacrifice some of the gunplay mechanics available to a player from the start. Dark Messiah has great combat, but RPG mechanics there are just simple way of locking away options from you.

To speak of Deus Ex again, it finds more or less perfect balance and this is why this game is valued so much. But truth be told, while I love Deus Ex, it is saved by excellent worldbuilding, atmosphere, characters, story, brilliant level-design and the sheer amount of options to progress available; the combat itself is not the strongest point of the game by any meaning. Deus Ex is the sum of its parts, if we remove all of the above, making a new game using the same mechanics, but with some amateur writing, bad level design and boring setting, the game will surely flop.
I disagree with your premise on Deus Ex's combat, the gunplay doesn't "suck" because RPG elements are involved, but merely because those relevant skills weren't correctly balanced. It's a failure of execution, not concept. In fact, I've recently argued and still hold that DX's approach is, in principle, the perfect mix of Action and RPG, as it capitalises on both the player's natural skills for perception and precision and, at the same time, offloads variables which cannot be adequately represented on the input device, such as recoil and sway, to the character sheet.

In concrete terms, DX's variation range from Untrained to Master was too large. The starting level at Untrained was simply too imprecise, and by the time you level up your relevant skills and install enough mods on your weapons to reach a manageable setup, you've already gotten used to play around head-to-head combat. At the opposite end of the spectrum, DX4 implements the same core concept (even if the skills layout has changed), but it went too far in minimising the skills' impact on performance. The starting levels, with no praxis invested in the weapons handling "augs", is okay, but the increments are too subtle, you should get some slightly more dramatic results towards the high end when upping those skills.

As a sidenote, the original DX's gunplay is also unsatisfying due to the limited nature of most enemies' combat AI. It's not really relevant to our discussion on RPG mechanics, but it is a significant factor in the negative perception of the game's combat that you need to bear in mind.

Coming back to my point, my ideal implementation of RPG skills in action gunplay would be somewhere in between the original DX and Mankind Divided, start with the latter's baseline, but provide more significant upgrades in handling. It takes care and iteration, but that's the price of quality.

As to your larger argument, an Action-Adventure RPG doesn't need to excel at being all three of those things separately, it needs to excel at being an Action-Adventure RPG: a game that comprehensively provides a framework where both the player's and the character's skills are working together in a consistent and harmonious way. It's a tough job, but certainly a realistic one, and between Deus Ex and nü-Deus Ex, you've got a pretty solid formula to experiment with. Why doesn't that happen more often? Lack of developer vision and/or budget priorities, pick your poison depending on how charitable you're inclined to be.
 

Ol' Willy

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In concrete terms, DX's variation range from Untrained to Master was too large. The starting level at Untrained was simply too imprecise, and by the time you level up your relevant skills and install enough mods on your weapons to reach a manageable setup, you've already gotten use to play around head-to-head combat. At the opposite end of the spectrum, DX4 implements the same core concept (even if the skills layout has changed), but it went too far in minimising the skills' impact on performance. The starting levels, with no praxis invested in the weapons handling "augs", is okay, but the increments are too subtle, you should get some slightly more dramatic results towards the high end when upping those skills.
So, in Deus Ex mechanics affect gameplay too much and in HR they don't affect the gameplay enough? You speak of the balance, but is it possible? Is there a single game outta there that does that? Until I see that I will be Doubting Thomas and will hold that as impossible.
 

Funposter

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In concrete terms, DX's variation range from Untrained to Master was too large. The starting level at Untrained was simply too imprecise, and by the time you level up your relevant skills and install enough mods on your weapons to reach a manageable setup, you've already gotten use to play around head-to-head combat. At the opposite end of the spectrum, DX4 implements the same core concept (even if the skills layout has changed), but it went too far in minimising the skills' impact on performance. The starting levels, with no praxis invested in the weapons handling "augs", is okay, but the increments are too subtle, you should get some slightly more dramatic results towards the high end when upping those skills.
So, in Deus Ex mechanics affect gameplay too much and in HR they don't affect the gameplay enough? You speak of the balance, but is it possible? Is there a single game outta there that does that? Until I see that I will be Doubting Thomas and will hold that as impossible.
The problem really is that the effect of skills on combat in a real-time environment is rarely satisfying. It results in either a frustrating miss fest because skills are tied to to-hit chance (Morrowind at low levels, Deus Ex's implementation of aiming, VTMB too iirc) or the skills are tied directly to damage output which means that things become damage sponges if the player isn't "skilled" enough to fight them. They're both bad implementations of abstract game mechanics. Kingdom Come has a sort of hybrid system which works alright, but ends up with the player being a demi-god in the later stages of the game. I'm not sure if there really is a way to make first person action work with proper RPG mechanics, especially shooting. Melee combat seems a little bit easier, with Kingdom Come at least providing an example of where it could go.
 

Sigourn

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Feb 6, 2016
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The problem really is that the effect of skills on combat in a real-time environment is rarely satisfying. It results in either a frustrating miss fest because skills are tied to to-hit chance (Morrowind at low levels, Deus Ex's implementation of aiming, VTMB too iirc) or the skills are tied directly to damage output which means that things become damage sponges if the player isn't "skilled" enough to fight them. They're both bad implementations of abstract game mechanics. Kingdom Come has a sort of hybrid system which works alright, but ends up with the player being a demi-god in the later stages of the game. I'm not sure if there really is a way to make first person action work with proper RPG mechanics, especially shooting. Melee combat seems a little bit easier, with Kingdom Come at least providing an example of where it could go.

I believe Gothic circumvented this problem because it unlocked better moves and character controls as you advanced your skills. Meanwhile, Morrowind simply used straight dicerolls, which begged the question "why bother, just make it a classic cRPG" (we know the answer is that Bethesda was dead set on their first person open world RPG formula). And FPS games (Deus Ex, New Vegas, VTM:B) suffer from lacking any mechanics similar to Gothic's. So it ends up with the player feeling like the game is actively fucking them over (dicerolls that make you miss even if your aim is on point) by using mechanics the player is not in control of at all.

Still, I haven't played VTM:B, but Deus Ex gave you a minimum "aim for longer to reduce spread".
 

res11

Novice
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Messages
46
If Witcher 3 was an RPG then this game is an RPG, this is an objective fact regardless of what you think of the game's quality.
Witcher 3 is interactive movie, though
Seems to be considered an RPG by the majority of this site though
Majority of this site are decline enablers who spend most of their time on Bethesda games and won't touch anything older than Fallout.
That may be the case but it doesn't explain why Cyberpunk is voted not RPG on this poll when everyone here considers TW3 an RPG. Sounds like retarded double standards.
 

Gargaune

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Mar 12, 2020
Messages
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In concrete terms, DX's variation range from Untrained to Master was too large. The starting level at Untrained was simply too imprecise, and by the time you level up your relevant skills and install enough mods on your weapons to reach a manageable setup, you've already gotten use to play around head-to-head combat. At the opposite end of the spectrum, DX4 implements the same core concept (even if the skills layout has changed), but it went too far in minimising the skills' impact on performance. The starting levels, with no praxis invested in the weapons handling "augs", is okay, but the increments are too subtle, you should get some slightly more dramatic results towards the high end when upping those skills.
So, in Deus Ex mechanics affect gameplay too much and in HR they don't affect the gameplay enough? [...] Is there a single game outta there that does that? Until I see that I will be Doubting Thomas and will hold that as impossible.
Yeah, pretty much, if HR is the same as MD. I'm guessing it is, but I just don't remember for sure. In essence, I think the happy medium is right there, between DX1 and MD. Skill repartition aside, I was largely happy with MD's starting base for handling but wanted to see larger gains on in terms of reducing initial spread, movement sway and recoil. Naturally, this will vary a bit with the game you're applying it to, the exact values that work for a DX game might not be appropriate for something like STALKER, which has greater range engagements and ballistics, but its a matter of focus and iteration.

You speak of the balance, but is it possible?
:balance:
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If Witcher 3 was an RPG then this game is an RPG, this is an objective fact regardless of what you think of the game's quality.
This guy is right though he is rated retarded out of your own fear and butthurt.

Fact 1: Witcher 3 is more of an interactive movie than an RPG - it's systems are disconnected from each other, its difficulty is banal, its RPG progression and RPG char build tools are token stuff and placeholder.
Fact 2: Witcher 3 is Codex RPGOTY 2015
Fact 3: Cyberpunk 2077 is released
Fact 4: Cyberpunk 2077 is by leaps and bounds more of an RPG than Witcher 3 ever was.

If you claim Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG, then you have to explain how Witcher 3 is Codex RPGOTY 2015. Apparently you are in the minority on this prestigious site.

If you claim Cyberpunk 2077 is an RPG, then you are in a disagreement with its own makers who are not listing it under RPGs on their own marketplace.

Choose your dildo and sit on it.
 

Lord of Riva

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Fact 2: Witcher 3 is Codex RPGOTY 2015

Do you think that subjective measurements become factual if you look at them in hindsight? That would actually be a bit retarded.

The fact that W3 is GOTY 2015 here does not make it a fact that it is an RPG, it just makes it fact that a lot of people who voted in the polls did like the game.

The whole discussion is pretty retarded though. Maybe we should debate next if cum is tasty objectively, much more relevant.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
How is a vote result a "subjective measurement"?
 

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