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Is Dark Souls overrated?

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
why Catholicism is better than believing in the power of healing crystals

... and you're the biggest idiot in the thread.
Oh, an atheistard. I could have substituted any major world religion and any major fraud new age shit and you would have gotten triggered.
But the save system IS just annoying. Why do i HAVE TO either farm these dumb one hit enemies or run around them if i died at a boss?
It's just prolonging my inevitable victory some more...
They could at least put campfires before the bosses.
That's like asking why in Metal Slug, if you die at a boss and game over, why you need to start from the beginning. A board consists of a stage and a boss. It has always been this way in any genre that matters: SHMUP, platformer, etc.
 

Riskbreaker

Guest
The new director cut out meaningless crap from DS1, and introduced new themes. If there ever was a book that accurately reflects the meaning of the game it would be very similar to "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. Some actually tried to explain these things before me, so you can read about some of the more sophisticated themes in the game here: http://killscreendaily.com/articles/beginners-guide-kierkegaard-dark-souls-2/
Right, so I wanted to ask ya something back when you first posted that link and made identical claims (was it in that King's Field thread?): have you actually read Kierkegaard, or Camus's non-fiction? Do hope that you aren't taking something some random blogger wrote as a Gospel, merely because he used some smart sounding words and mentioned buncha important-sounding names in there.
 
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Dark Souls is way too tough to be fun and I like hard games.

Reminds me of the old school Devil May Cry games which I could never make it past the beginning of either.
You claim how you don't enjoy DS because combat is too tough for you and because that difficulty somehow reminds you of DMC... but at the same time you apparently love Severance. You are being extremely, obviously dishonest.

Wait a minute.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute.

Severance is much easier than either game and it allows you to creep save (spamming quick saves while inching along).

Every time I boot up Dark Souls and attempt to slither by, the enemies respawn even after saving at bonfires.

Another huge gripe I have is the gross Jap feeling the game gives me while it largely looks like it was created by a Euro dev team.

The voice acting is horrid and makes no sense, and the soundtrack is equally Jap gross.
 
Unwanted
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The new director cut out meaningless crap from DS1, and introduced new themes. If there ever was a book that accurately reflects the meaning of the game it would be very similar to "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. Some actually tried to explain these things before me, so you can read about some of the more sophisticated themes in the game here: http://killscreendaily.com/articles/beginners-guide-kierkegaard-dark-souls-2/
Right, so I wanted to ask ya something back when you first posted that link and made identical claims (was it in that King's Field thread?): have you actually read Kierkegaard, or Camus's non-fiction? Do hope that you aren't taking something some random blogger wrote as a Gospel, merely because he used some smart sounding words and mentioned buncha important-sounding names in there.

I could tell you about my work at university and post my own papers (different area, but still), but you would not believe. I will make a couple of points instead:

i) my area of interest has nothing to do with Kierkegaard, and I'm an atheist on top of that, but, let me put it this way, I believe existentialism raises a set of serious and interesting questions, so despite the fact that Kierkegaard and/or Sartre, for example, were wrong in my opinion, they were working with very real and substantial issues.

ii) I like to post that article in different places, yes, but I think you'll all agree with me that this article is unique. I would love to post a whole bibliography on Dark Souls 2 connections with various authors and other works of art, but you know. I know of only one guy that kinda shares my interests. He wrote a blog on Dark Souls 2 from dystopian and dying earth literature perspective, so it's slightly different than my interpretation, but what's the most important is that our views on the game are by all means coherent, and this makes the game even more meaningful: http://daveoftheundead.blogspot.com/

Last thing I would like to add is that even if I was a 16 years old who just choked on "some smart sounding words and important-sounding names" for the first time, it wouldn't be as bad as you think. You know the saying: what youth is used to, age remembers :)

My intention is simple: prove me that I'm wrong, and that the game is not on Camus' level, but that in reality it is yet another infantile shit :)
 
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Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Dark Souls is way too tough to be fun and I like hard games.

Reminds me of the old school Devil May Cry games which I could never make it past the beginning of either.
You claim how you don't enjoy DS because combat is too tough for you and because that difficulty somehow reminds you of DMC... but at the same time you apparently love Severance. You are being extremely, obviously dishonest.

Wait a minute.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute.

Severance is much easier than either game and it allows you to creep save (spamming quick saves while inching along).

Every time I boot up Dark Souls and attempt to slither by, the enemies respawn even after saving at bonfires.

Another huge gripe I have is the gross Jap feeling the game gives me while it largely looks like it was created by a Euro dev team.

The voice acting is horrid and makes no sense, and the soundtrack is equally Jap gross.
Gonna blow your mind and tell you the music is excellent and the voice acting is fantastic and could not have been any better.

Lyric Suite, agree with me.
 

80Maxwell08

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I only bought it as it was on the all-time codex list.

My first thoughts was about asking for my money back. But I also received very good - I would say exceptional - bang for buck experiences with Fallout 1 and 2, Wizardry 8, Arx Fatalis and Risen.

I don't believe console games make good RPGs - apart from Final Fantasy 7. What is the difference between Darksoul and Darksiders?

Unlike Alpha Protocol, DS is on my list of "Try Again" games and hopefully I can move towards the consensus that it is a decent game.
The difference between the Souls games and Darksiders is that Darksiders is more about being a zelda like game from it's items to levels and fights. The Souls games are trying to emulate the design of old school dungeon crawlers in a 3rd person action game. It's mainly trying to follow the legacy of the King's Field games which From also made that tried to accomplish the same thing. If you like dungeon exploration I would definitely recommend giving it another shot. I wouldn't worry too much about bosses since summoning other players will help immensely with most of them. As for the others, the Bed of Chaos is a well known terrible fight and some players are just plain stupid.
EDIT: To elaborate a bit on Darksiders, since I just saw what a terrible example I gave, it's far more puzzle focused than action focused in just about every aspect. I still liked Darksiders but its far more mediocre than the Souls games.
 
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toro

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Can you provide some examples from that VERY VERYYYY interesting design?

I don't want to die dumb.

You're a bit too aggressive for my taste, but okay.

However, I don't know you and don't know a perspective from which I should address the question. Should it be "why Dark Souls 2 is unique as compared to video games in general" (and I think Dark Souls 2 does things that no game had ever done), or "as compared to other games in the series" (and again, Dark Souls 2 is quite unique in this sense). I haven't read the thread, but a quick peek at your post and Dark Matter's post was enough to conclude that you guys are discussing the series from both perspectives. I'm not particularly interested in writing an essay, though, you know :)

I'm open for suggestions. You may be thinking "DS2 has the worst map design in the series", or "DS2 story makes no sense", or "DS2 is a game for babies, adult men play Bloodborne". I will be more than happy to address these issues :)

A quick answer is: the strongest point of DS2 is it's story. It touches really interesting and abstract ethical themes. The new director cut out meaningless crap from DS1, and introduced new themes. If there ever was a book that accurately reflects the meaning of the game it would be very similar to "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. Some actually tried to explain these things before me, so you can read about some of the more sophisticated themes in the game here: http://killscreendaily.com/articles/beginners-guide-kierkegaard-dark-souls-2/ Now, what I've been describing as more sophisticated themes and general refinement of the game is of course reflected by the design. Roughly speaking, the game is more humble, because they cut out a lot of bad and bombastic design, and focused more on the story. So, for example, the last boss is no longer just a guy who stands still in one place the whole game and has nothing to say what so ever. What seemed like a cool idea for the Kiln (at first sigh it looked like an actual place in the world) was devastated in DS1 by a bombastic approach to design (in reality the area looks like "another dimension" type of crap). These mistakes were replaced with characters and plot that remind such classics like Macbeth or Oedipus in DS2.

That's just a tip of the iceberg. I'm a huge fan of Dark Souls 2, to the point where it ruined other games for me, Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3 included (as I said, my first impression from a full DS3 run is that they learnt nothing from DS2, and that DS3 repeats the same mistakes that you can find in DS1, but manages to be twice as much of a parody of the series than the first game).

I will be honest: I have no clue what you are talking about.
 

Lacrymas

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This is actually the only significant thing posted in this thread regarding the narrative of any Souls game. While it kinda quotes Kirkegaard out of context, it tries to find some kind of coherence in the character you are playing and the world it inhabits with actual, serious arguments. Whether it's true or not I can't say because I've yet to read Fear and Trembling, but it's a good start. The only thing I can say is that I'm pretty sure DS2's development team weren't trying to extend existentialism or use it as world building. I'm always with the confidence that an educated artist knows what s/he's doing and doesn't just stumble randomly onto valuable insights. I don't know how relevant my position is though, truth doesn't diminish because you accidentally discovered it.
 

NotAGolfer

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You know, if Dark Souls had stayed niche like King's Field, the same retards calling it bad would be sucking that oh so niche and obscure game's cock.
Fucking hypocrite whores with no eye for quality. Lyric Suite might have brain fog but he is right about one thing: some things are just better than others.

And you don't have to explain why. I don't need to explain why canned shit isn't as good as Rembrandt. I don't need to explain why Bach is better than Britney, or why Catholicism is better than believing in the power of healing crystals. These truths are self-evident to any person with half a brain. So it is with Dark Souls, and its popularity or lack thereof makes no difference.
Says the guy with this avatar:
2607.jpg


Also Bach is shit.
 
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about "adventurer #1":

Link me even one LP going down like that or it didn't happen (of a player that didn't play through it 10 times before of course).
Everything in this fucking boring game is about pattern memorization, not just the enemies, the nonsensically built levels too.

"I require VIDEO PROOF that it's possible to notice traps and avoid them"

Black Phantom, please. Just look around.

I'm just going to use gifs as examples.

BZOsBCp.gif


Funny aside, would you march into a alcove next to an abyss and not expect a trap of some sort? He could have killed the archer with a ranged attack, used a faster melee weapon or looked around the corner and noticed the huge fucking dude right next to him.

Same goes for this area in Demons other area in Dark Souls.

dark-souls-games-gif-yolo-887048.gif


There are charred corpses on the bridge and there's a dragon flying in circles around it. Unless you're stoned out of your mind you should be able to connect the dots.

Dark Souls 2. HE'S BAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK

tumblr_ml254z82iy1r04lsro1_400.gif


Destroying a flying creature's eggs and then crossing a bridge while it's angrily staring at you was probably not your brightest idea.

The difference is that DS can be finished by every fucking retard on this planet, while these games at least punished you for failing to remember the patterns.

Correct. Adventurer #2 will be able to try again once he's done throwing his little temper tantrum. I don't see this as a bad thing, though. Your punishment is the risk of losing your accumulated souls if you can't reach your corpse before dying again. Just about the right amount of punishment to make you pay attention but not harsh enough to make you feel like playing something else.

And that "story" bored me to tears. And the atmosphere had the same effect. What a lifeless husk of a gameworld (pun obviously intended).

Well, you liked Witcher 3's story so your opinion is invalid. :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug:

DraQ is a bad influence
 
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tormund

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This is actually the only significant thing posted in this thread regarding the narrative of any Souls game. While it kinda quotes Kirkegaard out of context, it tries to find some kind of coherence in the character you are playing and the world it inhabits with actual, serious arguments. Whether it's true or not I can't say because I've yet to read Fear and Trembling, but it's a good start. The only thing I can say is that I'm pretty sure DS2's development team weren't trying to extend existentialism or use it as world building. I'm always with the confidence that an educated artist knows what s/he's doing and doesn't just stumble randomly onto valuable insights. I don't know how relevant my position is though, truth doesn't diminish because you accidentally discovered it.
IMO I think it's a metamodernist deconstruction of existentialist tendencies viewed trough the prism of inverted fantasy tropes that present metaphor on constant presence of myth-construct of entropy of social systems in modern speculative fiction.
 

Cromwell

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The most important thing I noticed in the first gif was 19 estus. Does it heal less in ds1 or what? I think I have 7 now in DS 2 (plus some miracles to heal)
 

NotAGolfer

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And that "story" bored me to tears. And the atmosphere had the same effect. What a lifeless husk of a gameworld (pun obviously intended).

Well, you liked Witcher 3's story so your opinion is invalid. :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug:
Except I didn't?
I don't care for Sapkowski's universe and since the gameplay is shit I didn't play much further than the first area.

Funny aside, would you march into a alcove next to an abyss and not expect a trap of some sort? He could have killed the archer with a ranged attack, used a faster melee weapon or looked around the corner and noticed the huge fucking dude right next to him.
See, we even agree on this. You point out that the only way to succeed on your first try would be to be very very very cautious and to proceed slowly, and I wrote that that's not the kind of action gameplay I enjoy.
It has to have some rythm to it and it has to be fast-paced or it's just not for me.
And don't pretend that a lot of players approach DS that way, we both know that ain't true.

We all live in the gigantic shadow Bach casts, trust me.
Sure, I'll take your word on it. But please don't force me to even endure a minute of that banalshitboring chain of fugues.
 
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Dark Matter

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You could've, you know, read my other posts in which I cover these things more in-depth. The respawns aren't frustrating, they are, like I said, boring and just waste time you could spend killing the boss. Not to mention that there are a few instances where you could just run past the mobs, like with Sif, so so much for that.
This is a valid criticism, and it comes down to the sometimes uneven quality of the Souls games.

When done properly, either simply running past enemies is not a viable tactic, or you can run past enemies but the trek from the bonfire to the boss is extremely short so the tedium of simply walking from point A to point B is negligible (Ornstein & Smough comes to mind). But there are some instances in the Souls series where its a fairly long trek from the bonfire to the boss while at the same time designed in a way that there's zero risk in just beelining to the boss.

Also, there is a thing called context, so you can't say that not respawning mobs is like not resetting the boss after each attempt, bosses are framed in such a way as to prevent exactly this sort of allegory. It's a false equivalency. If they wanted to force you to complete the entire run with limited resources and make it count, they could just make it so you can't replenish your resources by resting at a bonfire and it wouldn't respawn the mobs. The resources would be replenished by killing the bosses. That would be, of course, a lot more frustrating, but, as we've seen, people don't mind frustrations. It would require more thought to how the entire game is structured, how it tackles challenges and how it conveys information though. Now that I think about it, maybe that's the next step for action games after DS.
Ok this is a totally moronic suggestion. Let's actually think about how that would work. Since you can't replenish your potions until you beat the boss and since there's always the risk that the next boss will be incredibly challenging, the sensible choice would be to try and make it to the boss without using any potions, and because you're not using any potions on the way to the boss, you're going to keep dying repeatedly, slowly chipping away at the enemies along the way until there aren't any left. E.g. kill 5 enemies, die, walk back from the bonfire and proceed a little further this time, kill the next 5 enemies, die, walk back to where you died and proceed a bit further again, kill some more enemies, die again.........and keep doing this until you kill every single enemy along the way and finally reach the boss.

First of all, this is this far, far more tedious than how Dark Souls currently works, where the tedious process of walking back to the boss over and over again to the point of frustration only occurs for the really difficult bosses while the easier ones only require repeating the level maybe 2-3 times (in the case of DS2, I killed most bosses on my first try). In your system, you would have to do make your way from the bonfire to the boss several times for every single boss since you'll always want to make it there with the max number of potions in case it's a particularly difficult boss. Then there's the fact that pretty much all skill and tension is entirely eliminated because you can literally just brute force your way to the boss by just slowly chipping away at the enemies. In Dark Souls, when you make your way past a particularly difficult group of enemies, even if the next encounter is easy, it still feels tense and engaging because screwing up would mean having to repeat the difficult encounter. There's a certain weight and impact in your actions that would be gone with your idea, with the only action containing any meaningful consequence is whether or not you use an estus flask.

BTW. you know which game actually had this system? Motherfucking Bioshock 1, the game with quite possibly the worst save/respawn system ever conceived, to the point where even most casuals hated it because of how insultingly lenient it was towards poor play. In Bioshock 1, you would respawn at Vita chambers but any enemies killed or any damage done to enemies was permanent, so you could literally just keep bumrushing every single encounter without any consideration for playing intelligently or showing skillful play, because as long as you can output even some damage before dying, you're still making progress.

Anyways, let's move on to what happens once you reach the boss. Since your health potions don't replenish, you don't want to make the mistake of using any potions until you've fully mastered their attack patterns, which means doing several suicide runs until you have a proper idea on how to beat them, even against bosses which normally could be beaten on the first or second try. And what if you use up all your potions, come really close to beating the boss but just fall short. So whereas you were struggling even with a full of health potions, now you're suddenly faced with a sharp, seemingly insurmountable rise in challenge of trying to beat the boss with no potions. I've beaten Dark Souls about 4 times and even I don't think I can beat every single boss without using any potions. What chance is a first timer going to have? You know how you were criticizing the limited lives system in arcade games for being exploitative and archaic? Well the comparison to arcade games would be far more appropriate under your system because if the player screws and uses up all his health potions before beating one of the difficult bosses, it is effectively the same as losing all your lives and you might as well just restart the whole game.

What I meant with the trial and error thing (regarding exploration) is that there is no way to know which thing is where, so that means just randomly stumbling about (which you wouldn't know to do btw) hoping to find something you don't know even exists. I'm not saying the game should tell me where things are, the characters could've just remarked that they've heard rumours of a merchant somewhere in the Undead Berg, or even merchants in general.
Well, first of all, NPCs do drop hints about finding other characters and locations. For instance, Crestfallen gives a rough indication of where both Griggs and Laurentius can be found, who in turn direct you to Big Hat Logan and Quelana. I don't think anybody mentions the location of the Undead merchant but then again, he's not exactly difficult to find. Meanwhile, a lot of key NPCs like Andre or Frampt are featured in prominent locations where they're impossible to miss. Even if the Undead merchant was in a much more obscure location, I'm not sure why you feel it's necessary for the game to provide directions. It's not as if he's an essential NPC required for completing the game. Honestly, the more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that you're too dumb to be playing this game, but instead of acknowledging it, you come up with these twisted arguments where, through some bizarre leaps in logic, you somehow arrive at the conclusion that Dark Souls is a poorly designed game for casuals and that you're simply too hardcore for it.

I mean, you said Dark Souls is "trial and error" instead of "discovery through journey". How the fuck is this trial and error and not discovery through exploration? By this logic, coming across any item, character, or location without having prior knowledge of its presence there must be "trial and error". :retarded:

The way they did it still works (depending on your definition of "works"), but it just smells of poor design rather than an intentionally kept information from you, and it's all because of the online marker systems and not a coherent thought process aimed at strengthening the atmosphere. Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, as an example of Japanese productions, are games which show intentional design, DS is just a series of serendipities regarding the narrative.
You keep stubbornly insisting on this point in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

Dark Souls is one of the games that has had the most said and written about it. There are design docs and interviews from the developers explaining their thought process and design philosophy behind nearly everything in the game.

But despite all that, you keep insisting that From Software are a bunch of clueless amateurs who don't know what they're doing or why they're doing it and that it just somehow worked out through sheer luck, all because it "smells" or "feels" that way to you. Yeah, you're fucking hopeless.
 
Unwanted
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This is actually the only significant thing posted in this thread regarding the narrative of any Souls game. While it kinda quotes Kirkegaard out of context, it tries to find some kind of coherence in the character you are playing and the world it inhabits with actual, serious arguments. Whether it's true or not I can't say because I've yet to read Fear and Trembling, but it's a good start. The only thing I can say is that I'm pretty sure DS2's development team weren't trying to extend existentialism or use it as world building. I'm always with the confidence that an educated artist knows what s/he's doing and doesn't just stumble randomly onto valuable insights. I don't know how relevant my position is though, truth doesn't diminish because you accidentally discovered it.

Nah, this shit is not enough. You have to articulate your arguments explicitly. Why do you think the article quotes Kierkegaard out of context, and why did you say FROM wasn't trying to use it as world building? Especially if you assume that artists don't stumble randomly onto valuable insights, because then there's no other explanation why Dark Souls 2 shares so many features with other works of art etc. It must have been intentional then!

For example, the Death from The Seventh Seal is commonly identified with the concept of death in existentialism (I can elaborate if needed). Now, FROM made death one of the central themes in the game. What's more, it's not a natural death as we know it, but a complex phenomenon that can be viewed from a personal level, and the whole kingdom is dying, and we can visit previous forgotten kingdoms etc. My point is: some elements of Dark Souls 2 story and gameplay (like death) are like thought experiments that are supposed to show you something more. And if this is still not enough then there're NPC dialogues that further prove my point.

And you know it's not about how accurately Dark Souls 2 is following this or that author or idea. I was posting some references just to cast a light on the story in Dark Souls 2, nothing more, nothing less.
 
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Except I didn't?

Witcher 3: 6 - huge empty areas with just trash mobs in them, felt kinda realistic in that regard, combat is boring, story is gud, but who cares about that

:1up:

The most important thing I noticed in the first gif was 19 estus. Does it heal less in ds1 or what? I think I have 7 now in DS 2 (plus some miracles to heal)

They initially heal less but it's identical to flasks in 2 after a couple upgrades. You can have 20, which is more than the (checks wiki) 12 you can hold in DS2 but DS1 doesn't have other healing items like Demons Souls (delicious grass) or DS2 (delicious gems).
 
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Metro

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Dark Souls has the best combat of any game I can think of off the top of my head in the last decade.
 

NotAGolfer

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Except I didn't?

Witcher 3: 6 - huge empty areas with just trash mobs in them, felt kinda realistic in that regard, combat is boring, story is gud, but who cares about that
So? Read the rest of my post. Story doesn't concern me, it is well-made, I give them that, and you actually don't feel treated like a retard for a change but who fucking cares?
And I certainly didn't enjoy it because of that.
I still gave it 6 out of 10 because I don't expect games to entertain me til the end anymore.
I'm just playing the old stuff over and over and mixing in some new games from time to time. I usually don't get very far in any of them. And since I can't rule out that the reason is just me getting old and grumpy I don't give low scores to games that managed to at least entertain me for a few hours.
 
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Lyric Suite

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Dark Souls is way too tough to be fun and I like hard games.

Reminds me of the old school Devil May Cry games which I could never make it past the beginning of either.
You claim how you don't enjoy DS because combat is too tough for you and because that difficulty somehow reminds you of DMC... but at the same time you apparently love Severance. You are being extremely, obviously dishonest.

Wait a minute.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute.

Severance is much easier than either game and it allows you to creep save (spamming quick saves while inching along).

Every time I boot up Dark Souls and attempt to slither by, the enemies respawn even after saving at bonfires.

Another huge gripe I have is the gross Jap feeling the game gives me while it largely looks like it was created by a Euro dev team.

The voice acting is horrid and makes no sense, and the soundtrack is equally Jap gross.
Gonna blow your mind and tell you the music is excellent and the voice acting is fantastic and could not have been any better.

Lyric Suite, agree with me.
Heh, i don't even remember the soundtrack. Was too busy trying not to die to actually pay attention to it. :M
 
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It was a joke, idgaf about Twitcher. Just pointing out that saying "the story is retarded" doesn't mean shit.

See, we even agree on this. You point out that the only way to succeed on your first try would be to be very very very cautious and to proceed slowly, and I wrote that that's not the kind of action gameplay I enjoy.
It has to have some rythm to it and it has to be fast-paced or it's just not for me.
And don't pretend that a lot of players approach DS that way, we both know that ain't true.

How should I know how many people approached it expecting Ninja Gaiden? Anyway, I think a game shouldn't be judged based on what you wanted it to be.

That's Dark Souls 1 actually :D

You're right, there's an estus on the inventory instead of delicious grass. In my defense, that gif was made for ants and DeS has an identical area.
 

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