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Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

Harthwain

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Which is bullshit because experienced soldiers know well what they can hit even under stress. At best numbers should be hidden based on some stat of soldiers that goes up based on exp
There are two problems with that argument:

1) You still get a visual representation of how likely you're to hit the target.
2) No matter how experienced you are, I doubt that you'll EVER see the numbers popping up when you aim.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think the point is that every allowable shot should be a 100% hit, because soldiers are smart enough to not shoot when they won't hit. Sounds like a fun game.
 

ArchAngel

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Which is bullshit because experienced soldiers know well what they can hit even under stress. At best numbers should be hidden based on some stat of soldiers that goes up based on exp
There are two problems with that argument:

1) You still get a visual representation of how likely you're to hit the target.
2) No matter how experienced you are, I doubt that you'll EVER see the numbers popping up when you aim.
That visual representation is close to useless unless they tell us exactly how much % variance each one represents. And numbers do not pop up but they know in their head their approximate hit chances and so should you as invisible controller.
 

ArchAngel

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Dev Diary 6 - Combat, Part 1
Hello there! I am Boian Spasov and it is my pleasure to welcome you to a DevDiary on a subject that I’ve been wanting to write about for a long time – combat! Yeah, it’s a big one - there is so much to talk about that a single article won’t be enough and you can expect a second combat DevDiary down the road.
As stated in our first DevDiary “Game Vision” the combat is one of the pillars of Jagged Alliance 3. It is a deep, involved and realistic experience and is the single aspect of the game that we iterated on the most during development.
Combat in Jagged Alliance 3 is turn-based with your entire team taking a turn, followed by the enemy team. During your turn you are free to activate your characters in any order and intermix action between them.

DevDiary_Screenshot_01.thumb.jpg.737962c46e79fad3270ba911ea2808f8.jpg

A typical character turn in many tactical games can be described as simply as “I move to this position and attack with this skill”. This level of abstraction is perfectly fine for these titles and we have seen how it can create deep and engaging gameplay, but for a simulative game like Jagged Alliance 3 we wanted more precise level of control over your character’s actions. How exactly do you move - will you hustle recklessly or carefully crawl to the target location? How exactly do you attack? Do you take your time to aim carefully? Will you attempt to cripple the target shooting a burst at their limbs or gamble for a killer headshot instead? This is achieved with several game mechanics working in concert, the most important of which are the Action Point system, the movement stances, the weapon firing modes and the body parts targeting system.

Action Points

All actions that a character takes during their team’s turn are limited by their available number of Action Points (AP). A simple action like crouching may cost only a single Action Point, while a more time-consuming action like a carefully aimed attack with a rocket launcher may consume most of the characters’ AP for the turn. Attack actions may be modified by spending additional AP to aim more carefully, increasing the chance to hit precisely with the net benefit from Aiming also depending on the weapon and the character stats.

DevDiary_Screenshot_02.thumb.jpg.a93dcfd9f5e3ff6aeae1a3c44574b837.jpg

An average rookie merc has around 10-12 AP per turn. This number is increased for veteran mercs and when conditions are favorable, like at high morale, but never too much. We intentionally kept the numbers relatively low to ease the mental calculations related to Action Points that players do each turn. However, even though the available number of AP is always displayed as an integer, it is internally stored with higher precision and certain very simple actions like moving at a short distance effectively cost only a fraction of an action point.

Stances

Characters are always in one of the three movement stances – standing, crouching or prone. Movement actions have different costs based on the chosen movement stance – crawling takes significantly more time than running the same distance but will realistically hide you from sight when you are behind an obstacle and is generally safer against firearm attacks and explosives. Conversely, if the enemy will attack you with a melee attack you will be at a disadvantage if you are crouching or prone.

DevDiary_Screenshot_03.thumb.jpg.a0782b201827f31b76dc8f2b2a9c7887.jpg

When moving you can always lock your chosen movement stance, manage stances manually or let the game manage them automatically, switching to standing when this will optimize AP usage while moving but still ending the movement in your desired stance. This approach is not without risks – your characters are more exposed if they are running around standing between safer spots and if you expect to provoke an enemy attack it might be better to move crouched or prone.

Firing Modes and Body Parts

You have three important decisions to make when attacking – how many additional AP you are willing to spend aiming, what firing mode do you wish to use and a what body part to target. Firing modes are pretty straightforward - an automatic weapon, like an AK-47, is able to attack not only with single shots but also with burst an auto-fire attacks, shooting more bullets at the expense of accuracy and AP cost. Since bullets are simulated individually this also tends to create more chaos on the battlefield, but I will talk more about the bullet simulation further down.

DevDiary_Screenshot_04.thumb.jpg.e2b74d56fdb0dedd63b88efcc201df53.jpg

With a double-barreled shotgun you can offload both barrels with the same attack, but you will have to reload afterwards. A dual-wielding character may alternate between firing with both weapons or just one of them by selecting the appropriate firing mode.
Body part targeting allows you to try to hit a specific body part and inflict additional effects with the attack. Headshots are often difficult to pull of but deal massive damage, while arm and leg shots are often useful for crippling enemies that you will not be able to finish off during the current turn. Melee attacks may be targeted at the enemy neck, inflicting various crippling effects that depend on your weapon of choice.
(Note that some of the following screenshots demonstrate some debug functionality available only to developers. These shots are marked with “Dev mode enabled” in the bottom left corner and are not representative for the game visuals as seen by the players.)

DevDiary_Screenshot_05_orig.thumb.jpg.7398a3f73d06834779678ccd581c93e3.jpg

Firing at a particular body part is only possible when you have a clear line of fire to it – as determined by the geometry of the level. Some body parts may be armored, presenting interesting moment-to-moment tactical choices during the battle.
Body part targeting is never possible when you don’t have clear sight to the enemy like for example when you are firing at an enemy behind a wall…

DevDiary_Screenshot_06.thumb.jpg.70032cb2635d8ae4f0fae3ca9a53b329.jpg


Bullet Simulation
Hitting someone behind a wall – what kind of sorcery is this? I apologize for getting a bit ahead of myself here, but I will explain immediately. Hitting enemies through walls and even through other enemies is possible in Jagged Alliance 3, thanks to our bullet simulation logic.
The bullet simulation logic involves a set of calculations for each individual bullet fired, based on the caliber and type of the bullet as well as the materials encountered along its path (armor, bodies or environmental objects). Both accurate and inaccurate attacks may have various unexpected effects because of it, like penetrating an enemy body to hit another enemy, grazing an ally by accident or destroying some of the environment on the bullet path.

The bullet simulation and the destruction system took considerable amount on effort to implement and support but all the effort was worth it because at its core combat in Jagged Alliance 3 aims to be a realistic experience, one that would not be possible without a realistic simulation running behind it. Which neatly brings me to the final, and perhaps the most important, point that I want to discuss in this DevDiary…

No Visible Chance-to-Hit

Each time you are setting up an attack in Jagged Alliance 3 you will see various factors that affect it both increasing and decreasing the chance for the attack to be accurate. What you will not see is an exact, precise chance-to-hit percentage number.

DevDiary_Screenshot_08b.thumb.jpg.1fc8917d8bd07ef809989c33f2395311.jpg

During the early years of development Jagged Alliance 3 displayed visible chance-to-hit, just like XCom and many other tactical games do. What we observed time and time again during our playtest sessions was that people were focusing on this number to the point where they centered their entire gameplay style around it, like never attacking when it is below a certain threshold. It also created moments of frustration and disappointment as in-your-face randomness sometimes tends to do.
We don’t feel there is anything wrong in principle with visible chance to hit. There are many immensely successful tactical games out there that play exactly like this and CTH was present even in some of the most popular JA mods. It is, however, not the kind of a core experience we had in mind for Jagged Alliance 3, a game meant to represent firefights in their entire chaotic and messy glory. We wanted an experience that allows you develop a sense for certain situations, a game that makes you focus on your surroundings and the unique combat situation instead of a number in the interface. That was our reasoning when we decided to experimentally hide the chance-to-hit number in the interface and observe if the players will approach the combat situations differently afterwards. The first confirmation that we were on the right track came from none other than Ian Curry, the creator of Jagged Alliance, and many more followed in the months after – players were more involved now, found the situations more unpredictable and the game more unique and distinctive. Encounter after encounter, they were gradually developing a sense of mastery and generally had way more fun this way!
We are fully aware that the decision to remove chance-to-hit will never sit right with some players but still feel that it is the crucial design decision that made our combat “click” and feel right. There are many tactical games with perfect and detailed CTH information out there, but too few where you play “by feel” as was the case with the classic Jagged Alliance!
Thank you for reading the first combat DevDiary. Here are some of the subjects we might explore in the next one – Weather Effects, Night and Darkness, Stealth and Overwatch/Interrupt Attacks. If you are interested in any other aspect of the combat gameplay, please suggest in in the thread below.
DevDiary_Screenshot_05.jpg
DevDiary_Screenshot_07.jpg
From one of the pictures they show us that Burst fire gives -50% damage modifier.. WTF devs?! So much for your simulation. Take this nuXcom trash and light it on fire.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
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Messages
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That visual representation is close to useless unless they tell us exactly how much % variance each one represents.
It worked for Phoenix Point's free aim mechanic. Frankly, if you can't tell what chances to hit you have depending on the size of the circle relative to the target, then I really don't know what to tell you.

That kinda worked in Invisible Inc.
In Invisible Inc. ammo was a limited resource and enemies were potentially endless. Before that there was a cover system with chance-to-hit percentages.

I know that, because I played the game since alpha, back when it was pretty much a procedurally generated roguelike that happened to take place in a single building (you were moving up floor by floor).
 

Ghulgothas

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Regarding pods:
Game Director Boian Spasov said:
Can't wait to talk more about this in the next combat DevDiary but I can give a short explanation now!

We don't use a pod system (frankly we find it too artificial). If an enemy becomes aware (for example hears a noise or sees someone getting wounded nearby) he will get a short reposition phase that allows him to move a short distance or rarely make a single attack without movement, but if your stealth approach is successful, the weapon silenced, etc. the enemies will instead become surprised and not reposition immediately, remaining vulnerable. Basically the reposition phase is meant to allow the enemies to switch from "ambient" to "combat" positions making the encounter more interesting, reward stealth approach and make enemy behavior outside of combat more natural (they shouldn't always crouch behind cover, after all).
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Frankly, if you can't tell what chances to hit you have depending on the size of the circle relative to the target, then I really don't know what to tell you.
Wait, you mean a bigger circle means a bigger number and a smaller circle means a smaller number? This is all so confusing.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Frankly, if you can't tell what chances to hit you have depending on the size of the circle relative to the target, then I really don't know what to tell you.
Wait, you mean a bigger circle means a bigger number and a smaller circle means a smaller number? This is all so confusing.
Nigger if you can't tell that the circle represents the likely area of bullet impact then you got no business being laptop guy.
 

ArchAngel

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Mar 16, 2015
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That visual representation is close to useless unless they tell us exactly how much % variance each one represents.
It worked for Phoenix Point's free aim mechanic. Frankly, if you can't tell what chances to hit you have depending on the size of the circle relative to the target, then I really don't know what to tell you.

That kinda worked in Invisible Inc.
In Invisible Inc. ammo was a limited resource and enemies were potentially endless. Before that there was a cover system with chance-to-hit percentages.

I know that, because I played the game since alpha, back when it was pretty much a procedurally generated roguelike that happened to take place in a single building (you were moving up floor by floor).
This does not work like PP, if it did I would not have a problem with it. If it did they would mention it in their diary and also we would be able to see it during gameplay videos.
 

Harthwain

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This does not work like PP, if it did I would not have a problem with it. If it did they would mention it in their diary and also we would be able to see it during gameplay videos.
I don't know about that. From what I've seen from the gameplays (3 of them, to be exact) only 1 shot with the aiming circle centered on an enemy's body was a miss. Literally everything else was hitting the intended target. That's too much for me to be merely a coincidence.

But let's assume you're right. Jagged Alliance 2 didn't have hit-to-chance displayed either. You were just spending APs and hoping it would be enough to land a hit. That's it. So complaining about it now is like asking for a departure from the series, not for the game to remain truthful to it.

Some info I dug out while looking for an answer about the aiming circle:

We don't use a pod system (frankly we find it too artificial). If an enemy becomes aware (for example hears a noise or sees someone getting wounded nearby) he will get a short reposition phase that allows him to move a short distance or rarely make a single attack without movement, but if your stealth approach is successful, the weapon silenced, etc. the enemies will instead become surprised and not reposition immediately, remaining vulnerable. Basically the reposition phase is meant to allow the enemies to switch from "ambient" to "combat" positions making the encounter more interesting, reward stealth approach and make enemy behavior outside of combat more natural (they shouldn't always crouch behind cover, after all).
Source: https://community.jaggedalliance.com/index/dev-diaries/devdiary-6-combat-part-one-r10/

One popular topic of discussion in the design team is "should you be able to miss with a firearm at point-blank range in a turn-based tactical game?" Currently this is possible in JA3, as it was in JA2, however you would be surprised how many people find it unrealistic due to their own expectations. What do you think?
Source: https://community.jaggedalliance.com/index/dev-diaries/devdiary-1-game-vision-r3/
 

ArchAngel

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This does not work like PP, if it did I would not have a problem with it. If it did they would mention it in their diary and also we would be able to see it during gameplay videos.
I don't know about that. From what I've seen from the gameplays (3 of them, to be exact) only 1 shot with the aiming circle centered on an enemy's body was a miss. Literally everything else was hitting the intended target. That's too much for me to be merely a coincidence.

But let's assume you're right. Jagged Alliance 2 didn't have hit-to-chance displayed either. You were just spending APs and hoping it would be enough to land a hit. That's it. So complaining about it now is like asking for a departure from the series, not for the game to remain truthful to it.

Some info I dug out while looking for an answer about the aiming circle:

We don't use a pod system (frankly we find it too artificial). If an enemy becomes aware (for example hears a noise or sees someone getting wounded nearby) he will get a short reposition phase that allows him to move a short distance or rarely make a single attack without movement, but if your stealth approach is successful, the weapon silenced, etc. the enemies will instead become surprised and not reposition immediately, remaining vulnerable. Basically the reposition phase is meant to allow the enemies to switch from "ambient" to "combat" positions making the encounter more interesting, reward stealth approach and make enemy behavior outside of combat more natural (they shouldn't always crouch behind cover, after all).
Source: https://community.jaggedalliance.com/index/dev-diaries/devdiary-6-combat-part-one-r10/

One popular topic of discussion in the design team is "should you be able to miss with a firearm at point-blank range in a turn-based tactical game?" Currently this is possible in JA3, as it was in JA2, however you would be surprised how many people find it unrealistic due to their own expectations. What do you think?
Source: https://community.jaggedalliance.com/index/dev-diaries/devdiary-1-game-vision-r3/
And this is why UFO was always a better game overall.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Regarding pods:
Game Director Boian Spasov said:
Can't wait to talk more about this in the next combat DevDiary but I can give a short explanation now!

We don't use a pod system (frankly we find it too artificial). If an enemy becomes aware (for example hears a noise or sees someone getting wounded nearby) he will get a short reposition phase that allows him to move a short distance or rarely make a single attack without movement, but if your stealth approach is successful, the weapon silenced, etc. the enemies will instead become surprised and not reposition immediately, remaining vulnerable. Basically the reposition phase is meant to allow the enemies to switch from "ambient" to "combat" positions making the encounter more interesting, reward stealth approach and make enemy behavior outside of combat more natural (they shouldn't always crouch behind cover, after all).
This sucks, but not as much as it could have done.

:balance:
 

agris

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Regarding pods:
Game Director Boian Spasov said:
Can't wait to talk more about this in the next combat DevDiary but I can give a short explanation now!

We don't use a pod system (frankly we find it too artificial). If an enemy becomes aware (for example hears a noise or sees someone getting wounded nearby) he will get a short reposition phase that allows him to move a short distance or rarely make a single attack without movement, but if your stealth approach is successful, the weapon silenced, etc. the enemies will instead become surprised and not reposition immediately, remaining vulnerable. Basically the reposition phase is meant to allow the enemies to switch from "ambient" to "combat" positions making the encounter more interesting, reward stealth approach and make enemy behavior outside of combat more natural (they shouldn't always crouch behind cover, after all).
why decline Strange Fellow? because of the scramble mechanic?
 
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Regarding pods:
your computers can't manage the gigantic amount of calculations simcity does, so instead of using a several gb/s bus to the cpu it's more efficient to move them through a few kb/s to the servers. we don't use an always online drm system, this is necessary, it's meant for your own good.
 

udm

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Make the Codex Great Again!
We have learnt the following:
- fog and other visibility effects reduce damage
- burst/full-auto reduces damage
- if your bullets miss the aimed body part and hit another body part, it doesn't get damaged

Yet here you guys are arguing about reticle sizes, no CTH displayed, scramble mechanics, and other autistic stuff. Let's at least rage about the bigger shit :argh:

:rpgcodex:
 

Krivol

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One popular topic of discussion in the design team is "should you be able to miss with a firearm at point-blank range in a turn-based tactical game?" Currently this is possible in JA3, as it was in JA2, however you would be surprised how many people find it unrealistic due to their own expectations. What do you think?

But in a turn-based game point blank is not shooting a standing enemy from the standing point of 20 centimetres (it's 1/2 of a cheeseburger for my USA friends) - they are supposed to move all the time. I know it looks ridiculous, but it makes sense.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The burst fire thing I don't understand at all. I don't even understand it from a gameplay/balance thing.
 

cyborgboy95

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Release this summer
Gear Up, Mercenaries! Jagged Alliance 3 Collector's Edition Unveiled
Equip yourself with the right tools to gain an advantage in combat. In the challenging world of Jagged Alliance 3, having top-of-the-line equipment is essential for survival, whether you're battling in harsh environments or comfortably seated in your gaming chair.

Introducing the Jagged Alliance 3 Tactical Edition!

This comprehensive kit is housed in a sturdy and waterproof case, ensuring your gear remains safe and dry. The Tactical Belt with a Belt Pouch provides quick and easy access to your essential items, while the A.I.M. pin showcases your allegiance to the cause.

Get to know the characters of Jagged Alliance with a set of 36 character cards, each showcasing their professions and personalities. As you strategize and plan your next move, immerse yourself in the game's atmosphere with the official soundtrack on CD. With the Jagged Alliance 3 Tactical Edition, you'll be fully prepared to take on whatever challenges come your way!

Here's the full overview:
  • Outdoor case, 100% water- and dustproof & IP67 certified
  • Outer dimensions: 258 x 243 x 118 mm
  • Inner dimensions: 235 x 180 x 106 mm
  • Heavy Duty Tactical Belt for your pants
  • Tactical Belt Pouch for your gadgets
  • A.I.M. Pin
  • Set of 36 Character Cards
  • Original Soundtrack on disc
  • The Game on disc in a limited Media Book
The Tactical Edition is available for pre-order now at an SRP of € 129.99 / £ 114.99 and will release along with the game this summer.
 

Ghulgothas

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Dev Stream Tres:

-Shilling for the Collector's Edition Feelies
-Notxcom, overwatch sucks.
-Their AP and Morale system is shared by the enemy.
-This one had gameplay.
-Multistoried verticality comes up in later-game environments.
-Indoor/Outdoor Combat and verticality was took time to implement, specifically with changing with what floor/zoom level you're on.
-Hopping up on rooftops was another thing that was hard to make.
-Environmental destruction is thoroughly implemented (allegedly).
-Burst/Autofire Damage Reduction is balanced.
rating_sawyer.gif

-Burst/Autofire took recoil into account with the trajectory of bullets, but was altered due to it being dominant strategy without nerfed damage.
-Many different shotguns.
-Dual-wielding looks malleable, not for melee weapons though.
-Melee is overpowered currently, meant to be a counter to certain playstyles.
-Caliber determines penetration. Shantytown sheetmetal and Wooden huts won't stop anything.
-Thank Ian Currie for giving the criticism that got them to toss out CtH.
-Not even making CtH togglable. Too fundamental a design choice and keeping it in made people focus too much on playing optimally.
-Expect postlaunch support.
-Gettin' into AP and freemove talks next time.
-Time of Day and Weather is dynamic. NVGs and flares are still around.
 
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