Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[Krivol]

No more mobile militia

IIRC it's JA 2 1.13, not the original feature.

 

[spectre]

Yeah, mobile militia is 1.13, however, being able to reallocate militias between individual squares in a city is a vanilla feature that is missed.
Then again, enemy attack patterns are very predictable.

 

[0wca]

Yeah, mobile militia is 1.13, however, being able to reallocate militias between individual squares in a city is a vanilla feature that is missed.
Then again, enemy attack patterns are very predictable.

Yeah that's what I meant. Militia reallocation.

 

[ArchAngel]

Too many good RPGs coming out. This is horrible.

I see zero good new RPGs this year. Maybe if Rogue Trader comes out this year..

 

[Krivol]

I have mixed feelings about this game. It is indeed a very good tactical, TB game with some 80's action movie quirks, but...

1. AR being close to useless, while in JA 2 FN FAL was THE GUN TO END ALL WARS... weird choice...
2. OTOH sniper rifles can be silenced cheaply and are the ultimate weapon of this game - one shoot, (usually) one kill.
3. Some characters changed in weird ways - Igor from a smart, sneaky guy to some Ruski idiot, Barry from a murky bomb guy to some kind of religious zealot, Thor to a flower child...

Point 1 is especially annoying - you came to the enemy very close and had a good line of sight? So what? Full auto will only make him angry... OTOH sniper rifles are a good choice even in close combat...

 

[Gambler]

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

 

[True Ukrainian]

ARs can consistently score torso hits at all ranges, even when used by mercs with shaky marksmanship.

 

[gogis]

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

We already had this discussion many pages ago. Sniper rifle is one kill per round. Pretty much every other weapon in late game will score your multiple kills per round. Which makes sniper rifle specialist weapon, no more, no less. If you use more than 1-2(already questionable) dedicated snipers in your end game squad, you doing it wrong.

Wait, that's exactly how many sniper rifles you used in your JA2 alpha squad.

 

[0wca]

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

Well except for the bottleneck cheese (which they did in JA2 as well) the enemy generally does make decent use of cover, tries to flank you and tries to take out your weaker (low HP) members of the team. They also use mortars fairly well to break the camp cheese as well as other explosives. At least they did with me.

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

We already had this discussion many pages ago. Sniper rifle is one kill per round. Pretty much every other weapon in late game will score your multiple kills per round. Which makes sniper rifle specialist weapon, no more, no less. If you use more than 1-2(already questionable) dedicated snipers in your end game squad, you doing it wrong.

Wait, that's exactly how many sniper rifles you used in your JA2 alpha squad.

I had 2 snipers in my team and they were constantly wiping out enemies. Yeah your other mercs can take out multiple targets in one turn, but their accuracy is questionable unless the enemy is in mid to close range while rifles take them out with one shot over a large distance.

To be fair, that's how rifles work IRL, so I'm suggesting maybe only a small CtH nerf for the headshots at large distances.

 

[Krivol]

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

We already had this discussion many pages ago. Sniper rifle is one kill per round. Pretty much every other weapon in late game will score your multiple kills per round. Which makes sniper rifle specialist weapon, no more, no less. If you use more than 1-2(already questionable) dedicated snipers in your end game squad, you doing it wrong.

Wait, that's exactly how many sniper rifles you used in your JA2 alpha squad.

I am still far from the endgame and decided to give Gwehr to all my mercs (except Barry, who uses grenades and shotgun if everything fuck ups). So are you saying ARs will be useful later?

 

[0wca]

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

We already had this discussion many pages ago. Sniper rifle is one kill per round. Pretty much every other weapon in late game will score your multiple kills per round. Which makes sniper rifle specialist weapon, no more, no less. If you use more than 1-2(already questionable) dedicated snipers in your end game squad, you doing it wrong.

Wait, that's exactly how many sniper rifles you used in your JA2 alpha squad.

I am still far from the endgame and decided to give Gwehr to all my mercs (except Barry, who uses grenades and shotgun if everything fuck ups). So are you saying ARs will be useful later?

I've used ARs with one character since start of game. They're a good balance for mid to close range bursts and long range single shots. Also good for suppression.

 

[3 others]

One issue with rifles is that they're just as capable in shorter ranges. There's nothing stopping you from storming cramped cellars with a squad using only scoped PSG-1s and mowing down enemies with point-blank shots from doorways. I'd really like to see a substantial aiming penalty in close range for rifles to make other weapon types - and especially SMGs / pistols - more viable in situations that should reflect their real-world usage.

 

[spectre]

I think the source of many such problems is that facing/aiming direction only applies to overwatch and machineguns in JA3.
For everything else, even making a 180 to change targets doesn't even cost any AP, while it totally should, and the AP cost for it should be based on stance (but not necessarily weapon equipped, these need varied
AP costs to bring the sights up and setup the weapon if it's on a bipod). It's a very basic thing JA2 did, and it allowed for all sorts of shit like flanking as well as balancing sniper rifles against rifles, smgs and pistols.

IMO, JA3 game is also way too generous with giving everyone free movement AP, but I reckon that's good for the AI and they kinda hoped it will serve as a good-enough catch-all
alternative for a more nuanced system with variable AP costs.

 

[Krivol]

Yep, seems like the lack of AP cost for turning around and aiming (I mean raising a gun to your eye, not spending AP to have better CtH) made a lot of weapons just decoration.

I remember using FN FiveSeveN pistol constantly in close combat in JA 2 1.13 due to its close-to-zero AP cost and insane armor piercing.

 

[Strange Fellow]

The free movement AP was a mistake, and giving all enemies bonus movement AP compounds that mistake. It leads to enemies almost always moving about during their turn (because it's free!) even when the position they move to isn't necessarily better. It makes turns last longer and looks extremely silly.

I agree that there should be a cost for raising the gun. It would have been as simple as having repeat shots against the same enemy cost fewer AP. Then again, the AP cost of each individual weapon is obviously intended to represent the entire sequence of bringing the sights up and zeroing in, and there are guns with very low AP costs that allow mercs with high agility to fire 4+ times per turn.

As for the removal of facing, I expected it to be more controversial here than it has been. I have to admit I always thought it was silly and unrealistic that mercs had to turn their whole body around to know if there was an enemy behind them. I'm fine with mercs looking around being abstracted away.

 

[Beowulf]

Tbh I think those are reasonable compromises if one's goal is to have a simplified turn based experience. This granularity that you all mention worked best in games like Brigade E5 and 7.62. It is also a reason why most of us think that JA3 is worse than it's predecessors, but honestly - I think that it's also part of the reason that this remake was so successful in this day and age.

 

[raeven]

Yep, seems like the lack of AP cost for turning around and aiming (I mean raising a gun to your eye, not spending AP to have better CtH) made a lot of weapons just decoration.

I remember using FN FiveSeveN pistol constantly in close combat in JA 2 1.13 due to its close-to-zero AP cost and insane armor piercing.

The raising your weapon mechanic was only present in 1.13, not vanilla.

 

[KazikluBey]

Yep, seems like the lack of AP cost for turning around and aiming (I mean raising a gun to your eye, not spending AP to have better CtH) made a lot of weapons just decoration.

I remember using FN FiveSeveN pistol constantly in close combat in JA 2 1.13 due to its close-to-zero AP cost and insane armor piercing.

The raising your weapon mechanic was only present in 1.13, not vanilla.

False. You couldn't decide to raise your weapon without shooting, but the shot that raises your weapon costs more AP (actual cost depends on the weapon).

 

[raeven]

Yep, seems like the lack of AP cost for turning around and aiming (I mean raising a gun to your eye, not spending AP to have better CtH) made a lot of weapons just decoration.

I remember using FN FiveSeveN pistol constantly in close combat in JA 2 1.13 due to its close-to-zero AP cost and insane armor piercing.

The raising your weapon mechanic was only present in 1.13, not vanilla.

False. You couldn't decide to raise your weapon without shooting, but the shot that raises your weapon costs more AP.

Ok yes, it's true that if you shot at the same target it cost less AP than the first shot.

 

[KazikluBey]

Ok yes, it's true that if you shot at the same target it cost less AP than the first shot.

No, not just the same target. Any further shots while the weapon is still raised. I don't remember if turning always lowered it.

 

[raeven]

Ok yes, it's true that if you shot at the same target it cost less AP than the first shot.

No, not just the same target. Any further shots while the weapon is still raised. I don't remember if turning always lowered it.

Mmmm, I'd have to test it again to be sure. I thought it was just the same target but I could be wrong.

 

[raeven]

Ok, I just checked in the game, here is how it works in vanilla.

If a shot costs, say, 8 AP to shoot the first time, then a subsequent shot at the same target will cost 5 AP. A shot at any other target, whether in front or behind you, would cost 7 AP. So it's less, but not as less as shooting the same target.

As is usually the case with JA2, it's a surprisingly complex system.

I'm still not sure if the whole "you can fire 3 times regardless of how much AP you have" mechanic is a good idea or just too byzantine to really wrap ones head around, but it's certainly a lofty design goal that they doubled down on.

 

[gogis]

I wouldn't say ARs are useless. They are conditionally good. A character with high marksmanship, appropriate perks and FN FAL can do some serious damage. However, sniper rifles are consistent, safe, don't require high marksmanship and save you ammo. Essentially, they are the default weapon in this game. It should be the other way around.

Good AI for the most part

In which way?

We already had this discussion many pages ago. Sniper rifle is one kill per round. Pretty much every other weapon in late game will score your multiple kills per round. Which makes sniper rifle specialist weapon, no more, no less. If you use more than 1-2(already questionable) dedicated snipers in your end game squad, you doing it wrong.

Wait, that's exactly how many sniper rifles you used in your JA2 alpha squad.

I am still far from the endgame and decided to give Gwehr to all my mercs (except Barry, who uses grenades and shotgun if everything fuck ups). So are you saying ARs will be useful later?

I haven't played with MGs post nerf, but it was the king. Absolute carnage. AA12 shotgun - easily 3 kills per round with free move perks. Same with melee. ARs could be janky, but best late games ones do good damage and most importantly - grenade launchers. I have no idea how they've fixed grenades miss chance, but it was very precise and very far whack on demand. Very useful. I had 2 ARs in my endgame squad. Guys with strong AR perks like Ivan can easily do 3 kills/turn without risks of melee/shotgun proximity.

You still NEED sniper for reliability, but wild ideas like 'just get 6 snipers' are outright retarded. Good luck clearing wings with snipers in Corazon fight. We talk 3-4 guys in small rooms. Cake walk to shotgun/melee. Stats don't lie - my most kills were shotgun Barry (and that's deducting explosive kills) and melee Igor. Livewire, who had all proper perks and 90+ accuracy for most of the game and very early PSG was only fourth after my AR/Winchester IMP. That's 4 characters I had from the start, so, fair comparison

 

[gogis]

ike Brigade E5 and 7.62.

Why have you wrote that... I am installing later now and already having PTSD... Stockholm syndrome is strong with this one...

 

[Krivol]

The more I play the more I love this game. ARs are indeed great, burst fire takes 3 bullets with halved damage, which means if you place all shots in an enemy, you will deal 150% of the damage. It's a fair deal, I just got weak mercs with low CtH (so 3 bullets, only 1-2 hits). The perks system is great and can change battle in a big manner. I love it.