Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[PanteraNera]

Tried the demo. Realized that there is no option to initiate turn-based combat even in the presence of the enemies. In other words, you have to stealth kill multiple enemies fully in real time with no pause.

Wut? There is a pause feature.

Maybe it didn't got added to the demo.
On release there was no pause feature!

 

[Latelistener]

I wanted to say that it's a good thing they added a pause feature, but wait a minute.

They were too lazy to make stealth work in the turn-based mode, so now you have stealth that works like it's an RTwP game, while the rest of the game is turn-based.

 

[Nachy]

Tried the demo. Realized that there is no option to initiate turn-based combat even in the presence of the enemies. In other words, you have to stealth kill multiple enemies fully in real time with no pause.

Did they even play their own game? Why is it so hard for them to just remake a 25 years old game with the same rules, but new graphics?

They were probably just too lazy to code so that the whole game could work both in the real-time and in the turn-based modes.

In fairness vanilla JA2 didn't have manual turn-based activation as well. That was a feature that was first introduced with 1.13 and Stratecialla. Though it can be argued they easily could have the hindsight of both of those existing during JA3's development.

But with all that said, the way it works even prior to the pause patch isn't actually all too bad. Even on Mission Impossible difficulty you can get pretty cheesy with the stealth kills and clear all sectors with it save for a few endgame ones. I do some bias in that micromanaging isn't too much of a bother for me, being used to RTS like StarCraft. But even if you don't execute things perfectly, the leeway for enemies reacting to your kills and spotting your mercs is pretty lenient. You can get away with just 1 or 2 dedicated stealth mercs either with a knife or a silenced weapon and pick off everyone one by one.

Still, I do agree and also wish it was a proper turn-based mode too post-patch, executing those clean and planned stealth placements in JA2 was really satisfying.

 

[Latelistener]

JA2 transitions back and forth between turn-based and real-time on the fly automatically, when you see or you don't see any enemies. I never even had an urge to have this button in JA2.

Here though? Apparently, you have to do stealth kills in RTwP mode and once you have been detected, it switches to turn-based mode and cannot be switched back until you kill all enemies.

I saw some positive feedback on the game, but I cannot imagine how can this be compared to JA2. Feels like a mobile game in comparison.

 

[Nachy]

That's fair.

I think it retains most of the spirit and DNA of JA2 while doing its own things for better and worse. There are some comparisons to be made, and some arguably weaker than what was in JA2, but I respect that it tries to differentiate itself as well. I do miss how more brutal and organic JA2 feels, and JA3 suffers a bit in over-tuning its balance and doing bandaid solutions to some of its own flaws (the stealth being strictly in real time particularly pre-patch was something initially done to balance it out being too powerful, but it still ended up something that can be cheesed anyways).

But there are a lot of things that make it an enjoyable experience on its own and feel fresh while embracing the major stuff that made JA2 stand out. I always enjoyed JA2's pastiche of cheesy action movies mixed in with the open RPG world and JA3 managed to capture that too. Arguably weaker writing in some aspects but nevertheless fun and engaging. It respects its past and I like how it does to reference both JA1 and JA2 without being overbearing. The combat itself can get pretty intense and brutal, especially on a somewhat blind playthrough where you're still figuring out what works and what doesn't. Overall exploration and discovery too is great, it gave me a lot of similar feelings just trying to check every sector and talking to different people in JA2.

I'm aware it's a contested design, but I also like that it puts more time and resource pressure too. You eventually can trivialize the resource scavenging once you figure out the meta, and I do wish it was executed better, but it's neat that it does try to encourage you to give your mercs a variety of different weapons for different ammo types especially in early to mid game as you struggle with resources.

All I can say is you do get used to how the stealth works eventually, and it's a relatively minor flaw in the grand scheme of things. The way enemy encounters work does get annoying, but there is a fair amount of depth introduced with the 3D environments too. Destruction is somewhat more meaningful in JA3 especially since it's permanent damage.

I rarely replay a lot of newer games from the past few years or so, but JA3 is something that made me replay it immediately after my initial playthrough. I like that it's also different enough that I can replay all three main Jagged Alliance games and have them feel distinct from each other. JA2 is still the better and more cohesively designed game overall, but JA3 is quite a pleasant surprise.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I never liked the turn-based stealth in JA2 in the first place. Has that guy noticed you or not? Click end turn and find out, either he'll do nothing or he'll kill your merc. Meh. I don't like the gamey awareness indicators of 3 but I don't think stealth in this game is any worse than its predecessor. Neither is great.

I do wish night ops had been handled better in this game, though. In 2 it's a completely different experience, here it's barely an inconvenience.

 

[Beowulf]

All I can say is you do get used to how the stealth works eventually, and it's a relatively minor flaw in the grand scheme of things. The way enemy encounters work does get annoying, but there is a fair amount of depth introduced with the 3D environments too. Destruction is somewhat more meaningful in JA3 especially since it's permanent damage.

JA2 also had permanent environmental destruction (and crows).

 

[Nachy]

I do wish night ops had been handled better in this game, though. In 2 it's a completely different experience, here it's barely an inconvenience.

Yeah, I even went with a night ops-perked IMP on my first go and felt it was a waste compared to how much it made a difference in JA2 for both you and the enemy. The weather system while neat on paper, also doesn't feel like they do enough to really make you consider your approach beyond "we're going to graze each other a lot here". Would be nice to see them get tweaked and expanded upon either through updates or mods.

All I can say is you do get used to how the stealth works eventually, and it's a relatively minor flaw in the grand scheme of things. The way enemy encounters work does get annoying, but there is a fair amount of depth introduced with the 3D environments too. Destruction is somewhat more meaningful in JA3 especially since it's permanent damage.

JA2 also had permanent environmental destruction (and crows).

My bad, I misremembered and thought whenever the crows did appear and got rid of the bodies, it was a similar timeframe where destroyed environments would also get refreshed.

 

[Beowulf]

My bad, I misremembered and thought whenever the crows did appear and got rid of the bodies, it was a similar timeframe where destroyed environments would also get refreshed.

I don't remember the environs ever getting repaired in vanilla, but I haven't played in a while, so I might be wrong. Paging the JA3 decline hater ArchAngel

 

[Nachy]

My bad, I misremembered and thought whenever the crows did appear and got rid of the bodies, it was a similar timeframe where destroyed environments would also get refreshed.

I don't remember the environs ever getting repaired in vanilla, but I haven't played in a while, so I might be wrong. Paging the JA3 decline hater ArchAngel

I might actually just be misremembering it too in general. I know cutting fences was permanent and when the locker room with the prototype rocket guns gets blown up on the army base it's blown up for good. But it probably was permanent for everything else too.

 

[Nachy]

I booted up JA2 and tested in Omerta by blowing up a wall with a body near it, and yeah, even after the crows take the body away the wall's still destroyed.

 

[Old One]

I like this game. It's not perfect, but it's fun and it has a lot of potential to get better.

 

[Cyberarmy]

It is one of the better games we got this year. It has some issues but still better than BG3 and other so called "rpgs". Hell, it even has better quests and C&C.
Codex being Codex and crying about trivial things as usual.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Old One]

Is there a way to set explosives manually without throwing them? If not, that's a problem. I should be able to sneak around and plant my charges, then detonate them from a safe distance.

 

[spectre]

Is there a way to set explosives manually without throwing them? If not, that's a problem. I should be able to sneak around and plant my charges, then detonate them from a safe distance.

I only saw a remote trigger lying around, but never gotten round to testing how it works. Well, judging from the video, that's the only way about it.
Huemimont... how do you even fail at simple shit like this?

 

[pm_675]

I only saw a remote trigger lying around, but never gotten round to testing how it works. Well, judging from the video, that's the only way about it.
Huemimont... how do you even fail at simple shit like this?

I think he means to plant the explosives instead of having to throw them like a grenade, in wich case no you can´t.

 

[Old One]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the only way to use explosives, regardless of whether they're timed, or proximity or remote detonated, is to throw them where you want them like a grenade. There doesn't seem to be a way to plant explosives without throwing them. This is bad for a whole lot of reasons.

 

[raeven]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the only way to use explosives, regardless of whether they're timed, or proximity or remote detonated, is to throw them where you want them like a grenade. There doesn't seem to be a way to plant explosives without throwing them. This is bad for a whole lot of reasons.

why is it bad? Is there a functional difference between 'planting' and 'throwing a short distance' that is meaningful from a gameplay perspective?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the only way to use explosives, regardless of whether they're timed, or proximity or remote detonated, is to throw them where you want them like a grenade. There doesn't seem to be a way to plant explosives without throwing them. This is bad for a whole lot of reasons.

why is it bad? Is there a functional difference between 'planting' and 'throwing a short distance' that is meaningful from a gameplay perspective?

Yes. It's the difference between lobbing a grenade on your turn and setting off C-4 when you are ready x turns later and way out of grenade tossing range.

 

[Spectacle]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the only way to use explosives, regardless of whether they're timed, or proximity or remote detonated, is to throw them where you want them like a grenade. There doesn't seem to be a way to plant explosives without throwing them. This is bad for a whole lot of reasons.

why is it bad? Is there a functional difference between 'planting' and 'throwing a short distance' that is meaningful from a gameplay perspective?

Yes. It's the difference between lobbing a grenade on your turn and setting off C-4 when you are ready x turns later and way out of grenade tossing range.

What's the difference between planting C4 then setting it off later, and throwing C4 then setting it off later?

 

[spectre]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the only way to use explosives, regardless of whether they're timed, or proximity or remote detonated, is to throw them where you want them like a grenade. There doesn't seem to be a way to plant explosives without throwing them. This is bad for a whole lot of reasons.

why is it bad? Is there a functional difference between 'planting' and 'throwing a short distance' that is meaningful from a gameplay perspective?

Yes. It's the difference between lobbing a grenade on your turn and setting off C-4 when you are ready x turns later and way out of grenade tossing range.

What's the difference between planting C4 then setting it off later, and throwing C4 then setting it off later?

If you check the video I linked, when he throws the C4, it triggers the whole enemy scramble turn shenanigans. Basically, it seems to count as an attack as far as AI is concerned.
Perhaps it's possible to do it stealthily (which would be the point), but seems really counter intuitive. Can't be bothered to test it, so perhaps someone with the game on hand can clarify.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Yes. As far as I can tell, the only way to use explosives, regardless of whether they're timed, or proximity or remote detonated, is to throw them where you want them like a grenade. There doesn't seem to be a way to plant explosives without throwing them. This is bad for a whole lot of reasons.

why is it bad? Is there a functional difference between 'planting' and 'throwing a short distance' that is meaningful from a gameplay perspective?

Yes. It's the difference between lobbing a grenade on your turn and setting off C-4 when you are ready x turns later and way out of grenade tossing range.

What's the difference between planting C4 then setting it off later, and throwing C4 then setting it off later?

Throwing is louder

 

[pm_675]

why is it bad? Is there a functional difference between 'planting' and 'throwing a short distance' that is meaningful from a gameplay perspective?

When I used explosives it was exactly like a grenade throw. It doesn´t land exactly where you want. I think, actually I didn´t use to much explosives between rng and the far superior 40 mm HE

 

[Gnidrologist]

What's the deal with the patches. Can i install them and continue playing the started game or they will disrupt the saves? Also, is it enough to install that latest "Buns" patch or need all that came before?